Gnostic or agnostic

[JuggsBunny]

I fall strongly in the #6, also.

 

[Dana]

I believe in God.

:shesaid I believe in God. I just question religion.

 

[darkcgi]

I'm a believer
I've just had too many special moments in my life not to

 

[Minor Axis]

I believe in God.

:shesaid I believe in God. I just question religion.

You all believe God exists. Anything particular about what he/she/it does in relationship to the human race?

 

[Minor Axis]

Absolutely. Notice the only two choices that claim to know if a god exists or not are the first and last. That's why those two are gnostic. The middle three are agnostic because they don't claim to know. This thread is about the difference between knowledge and belief. A concept many struggle with for some reason.

No, the choices are "Believe" or "Don't Believe" there is no "I don't know" choice. Maybe it's a fine point, some might say I am a disbeliever, but I prefer, I don't know:

Atheist: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

 

[doombug]

The idea of categorizing what humans believe or don't believe about God seems interesting. It looks like different sides of the same coin to me. I am more interested in spirituality as it relates to the individual than how others categorize it.

In this poll it seems that someone is to put themselves into a category based on what they think the words "know" or "believe" mean. I base what I believe on more than semantics.

 

[BornReady]

For me, agnosticism is saying 'we don't know'. Not 'I believe in God but admit I might be wrong'.

If someone says "I don't believe in any gods" without the disclaimer then do you think they are claiming to know no gods exist? In some cases that may be true. But in most cases they probably mean exactly what they said. They don't believe. Believing something is much different than knowing something.

You are correct that agnostic means I don't know. But you are mixing apples and oranges by categorizing "I believe", "I don't know", and "I don't believe". Unless you mean "I don't know if I believe". But I'm not sure how someone wouldn't know if they believe. I guess it's possible though.

When I tell some people I am an atheist they reply how can you know there is no god. I reply you can't. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe any gods exist. Nothing more. That is the point of this thread. I'm trying to clear up what probably 90% of atheists mean by the word atheist.

 

[Minor Axis]

Hm.

For me, agnosticism is saying 'we don't know'. Not 'I believe in God but admit I might be wrong'.

In my head, you could draw it on a line:

Theist (Believes there is a God) ------Agnostic (Doesn't know)-----Atheist (Believes there is no God)

Exactly.

 

[Tim]

Gnostic, from Greek gnōstikos of knowledge.
Agnostic, from Greek agnōstos unknown, unknowable.

 

[HK]

If someone says "I don't believe in any gods" without the disclaimer then do you think they are claiming to know no gods exist? In some cases that may be true. But in most cases they probably mean exactly what they said. They don't believe. Believing something is much different than knowing something.

Well this is the thing, you get people at all places on the spectrum, like with Panacea's example. There are some people who will say 'I KNOW that there is a God' and some people who will say 'I KNOW there isn't a God'.

I think the problem is, some people think that 'I believe' is the same as 'I know', so their belief becomes fact to them - on either end of the scale. I don't believe in religion or the common versions of Gods we have these days BUT I believe that it's not possible for us to know 100% either way whether there is or isn't a higher being out there somewhere. I think it's wrong for atheists to assert that they know there isn't a god, just as much as I think it's wrong for others to insist that they know there is one. I don't think knowing is possible in either scenario.

 

[Minor Axis]

Well this is the thing, you get people at all places on the spectrum, like with Panacea's example. There are some people who will say 'I KNOW that there is a God' and some people who will say 'I KNOW there isn't a God'.

I think the problem is, some people think that 'I believe' is the same as 'I know', so their belief becomes fact to them - on either end of the scale. I don't believe in religion or the common versions of Gods we have these days BUT I believe that it's not possible for us to know 100% either way whether there is or isn't a higher being out there somewhere. I think it's wrong for atheists to assert that they know there isn't a god, just as much as I think it's wrong for others to insist that they know there is one. I don't think knowing is possible in either scenario.

My experience with a lot of athiests (online) is that if you pin them down, they'll tell you that if there is adequate evidence they could believe in God, however in the meantime most of what comes out of their mouths sounds like there is no God period.

 

[HK]

My experience with a lot of athiests (online) is that if you pin them down, they'll tell you that if there is adequate evidence they could believe in God, however most of what comes out of their mouths sounds like there is not God period.

Well that seems logical - I do lean towards the idea that the common idea of God, like the christian and muslim gods for example, probably don't exist, even though in general I believe that we can't know. But if there was actually proof, solid proof that couldn't be argued with, then I'd be a fool to keep repeating my old beliefs

 

[Panacea]

My experience with a lot of athiests (online) is that if you pin them down, they'll tell you that if there is adequate evidence they could believe in God, however most of what comes out of their mouths sounds like there is not God period.

I think that is mostly a symptom of debating with Christian or Muslim theists. So often that is the only discussion had; holy text nitpicking (and you know how atheists usually feel about holy texts ) and the same stale, dead, arguments. Things change a bit (the pinning down, as you say) when the discussion is more open, more of a searching than a defending, and "god" is something other than Yaweh.

 

[doombug]

I don't see Atheists being any different than Christians. Christians have these televangelists who use the bible to prey on people for money and Atheists have writers who write controversial books based on half truths to generate sales. Both are laughing all the way to the bank. They are two sides of the same coin.

 

[BornReady]

I think it's wrong for atheists to assert that they know there isn't a god, just as much as I think it's wrong for others to insist that they know there is one. I don't think knowing is possible in either scenario.

I agree with you if by wrong you mean incorrect. I would guess 90% of atheists and 90% of theists do not claim to know if a god exists. But of course the theists believe in one and the atheists don't.

 

[Minor Axis]

I think it's wrong for atheists to assert that they know there isn't a god, just as much as I think it's wrong for others to insist that they know there is one. I don't think knowing is possible in either scenario.

Just to reinforce, I agree 100%. I've said both ends of the spectrum are equally out on a limb.

 

[doombug]

I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist....

 

[BornReady]

I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist....

If you're not an atheist then you're a theist. Unless you're one of those who doesn't know if he believes in a god. In which case, you shouldn't say you're not an atheist. You don't know if you're an atheist or a theist.

You seem open minded which also makes you an agnostic. But now we're talking about something different than belief. We're talking about knowledge.

I keep harping on this but that is the point of this thread. Belief and knowledge are different things. Atheist/theist addresses one. Agnostic/gnostic addresses the other. Of course, people use words differently. But, in my experience, this is what most atheists mean by the word atheist.

 

[HK]

BornReady, I'm a little confused by your definitions.


The way you're phrasing it makes it sound like anyone who isn't an atheist or a theist just doesn't know which they are. Whereas I would say that I know exactly what I am. I'm not an atheist or a theist, I'm agnostic - I believe it's not possible for anyone to know either way whether there's a God or not. Technically yeah, I'm saying 'I don't know if there is a God or not' but I'm NOT saying 'I don't know what I believe'. What I believe is pretty simple - that man isn't capable of knowing either way.


Does that make sense? I feel like we're getting lost in semantics here when we do probably have very similar ideas.

 

[Minor Axis]

BornReady, I'm a little confused by your definitions.


The way you're phrasing it makes it sound like anyone who isn't an atheist or a theist just doesn't know which they are. Whereas I would say that I know exactly what I am. I'm not an atheist or a theist, I'm agnostic - I believe it's not possible for anyone to know either way whether there's a God or not. Technically yeah, I'm saying 'I don't know if there is a God or not' but I'm NOT saying 'I don't know what I believe'. What I believe is pretty simple - that man isn't capable of knowing either way.


Does that make sense? I feel like we're getting lost in semantics here when we do probably have very similar ideas.

It's makes sense to me. I'm agnostic and fantasizing you posed for your avatar.