Do you believe the Bible to be fully true?

[valley]

Every single thing you said above is built upon the assumption that there is a god. Since there is no proof of god you have no right to claim such a concept as "true". A belief, yes. This is not just niggly-piggly head-butting of religion vs. logic. It is a matter of fact.

And your entire worldview is built on the assumption that there is no God. I gotta ask...I probably asked you before but I forget what your answer was....do you believe that miracles are possible? How do you reconcile the unexplainable in your mind?

And don't worry about my feelings; they are not nearly as sensitive as you may believe they are.

Good....hehehe..it wasnt really your feelings that I worried about. It was more a worry of provoking that temper of yours. I'm not a masochist, contrary to popular belief.

 

[lumpenstein]

And your entire worldview is built on the assumption that there is no God. I gotta ask...I probably asked you before but I forget what your answer was....do you believe that miracles are possible? How do you reconcile the unexplainable in your mind?

Good....hehehe..it wasnt really your feelings that I worried about. It was more a worry of provoking that temper of yours. I'm not a masochist, contrary to popular belief.

You're not understanding one point and that is one of the meaning of words. A belief by definition does not need evidence or proof whereas a "truth" does. I am merely following the rules of the English language and has nothing to do with a world view.

You will have to give me examples of the unexplainable. There are things that are as yet unexplained and there are many things explained that not that long ago were considered unexplainable. No, miracles are not possible. Excuse me but this is just a poor paraphrase of an author - I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke - who said that a vastly superior technology would to us seem to be magic. I remember the utter disbelief on my dad's face when I tried to explain to him how a CD works!

Temper? It's all a matter of perception. To me most Americans sound hyper and politically obsessed but that is also only a matter of perception.

 

[dt3]

Its true....dont you dare tell me its not. I dont have to prove anything to you. The proof is there within the scriptures for anyone who wants to take off their spiritual blinders and look. I liken it to being color blind..I can show you the color blue all I want but you will only see brown. You trust what only what you see and refuse to accept any evidence presented to you by scores of people who claim its blue. You are color blind....blind being the operative word. You do not want proof regarding the things of God. No matter what you see, you will stubbornly cling to your own belief because doing anything else requires you to humble yourself and admit that you're a sinner in need of God's forgiveness. Its not my responsibility to force you to believe so dont blame me (or Christians in general) and say that its because you havent been shown any proof. Jesus Christ could come and stand before you and speak to you face to face and you would explain it away as a hallucination..purely chemical in essence. So lets not pretend that you would ever accept any proof shared with you by others.

I am sorry if thats harsh, Jim. We've been through this before and i'm not about to tiptoe around your feelings because I know that our friendship is not at stake if I am open with you, just as you are always open with me on this subject.

I hesitate to get too involved in any of these religious debates. But i still have very strong opinions and like to toss them out there once in awhile. I'm always open to pm's if anyone wants to talk about it, though.

How do you explain people who avidly went to church for several years, listened, prayed, and believed that later in life choose not to believe? Your color-blind analogy doesn't apply there.

 

[valley]

You will have to give me examples of the unexplainable.

First lets make sure that we agree on the definition of miracles since this is supposed to be about the definitions of words.

Antony Flew said "a miracle is something which would never happen had nature, as it were, been left to its own devices."

Would you agree with that?

There are things that are as yet unexplained and there are many things explained that not that long ago were considered unexplainable.

so you believe that because many things that were once unexplainable are now explainable, that that same logic MUST apply to every other unexplainable occurrence as well?

No, miracles are not possible.

hmm...you say that as if its the truth rather than just something you sincerely believe!

Excuse me but this is just a poor paraphrase of an author - I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke - who said that a vastly superior technology would to us seem to be magic.

I can understand that. I saw the same thing with my own father-in-law, who was born in 1911.

I remember the utter disbelief on my dad's face when I tried to explain to him how a CD works!

Yes, I would imagine the look on your face will be similar on the day you stand before God! :eek

Temper? It's all a matter of perception. To me most Americans sound hyper and politically obsessed but that is also only a matter of perception.

LOL......I do believe there is enough evidence for me to prove that you have a temper and that its not just a matter of my own perception. If i said it was a fact that you have a temper and then go on to prove it by citing example of discussions where you "blew up"....I wonder if you would be the only one still denying it! Listen, i'm not saying you are ruled by your temper..i'm just saying that I know it exists. Know what i'm sayin'?

 

[valley]

How do you explain people who avidly went to church for several years, listened, prayed, and believed that later in life choose not to believe? Your color-blind analogy doesn't apply there.

I explain them by saying that they never really believed and were only attempting to get into heaven through their own good works (going to church, giving to the poor, abstaining from drinking, drugs, cussing etc..). I'm not just making that up...its a scriptural belief. Google up "Demas" and see who he was and what was said about him. There's a few other passages explaining why this happens...but Demas is a good example of someone talking the talk but falling away later on in life.

 

[lumpenstein]

First lets make sure that we agree on the definition of miracles since this is supposed to be about the definitions of words.

Antony Flew said "a miracle is something which would never happen had nature, as it were, been left to its own devices."

Would you agree with that?

so you believe that because many things that were once unexplainable are now explainable, that that same logic MUST apply to every other unexplainable occurrence as well?

hmm...you say that as if its the truth rather than just something you sincerely believe!

I can understand that. I saw the same thing with my own father-in-law, who was born in 1911.

Yes, I would imagine the look on your face will be similar on the day you stand before God! :eek

LOL......I do believe there is enough evidence for me to prove that you have a temper and that its not just a matter of my own perception. If i said it was a fact that you have a temper and then go on to prove it by citing example of discussions where you "blew up"....I wonder if you would be the only one still denying it! Listen, i'm not saying you are ruled by your temper..i'm just saying that I know it exists. Know what i'm sayin'?

Fair enough, the same way I don't have to prove that you are obstinate and summarily dismiss anything out of hand that dares contradict the bible.

As for miracles, I'll let you know when I am shown irrefutable evidence of one.

 

[dt3]

I explain them by saying that they never really believed and were only attempting to get into heaven through their own good works (going to church, giving to the poor, abstaining from drinking, drugs, cussing etc..). I'm not just making that up...its a scriptural belief. Google up "Demas" and see who he was and what was said about him. There's a few other passages explaining why this happens...but Demas is a good example of someone talking the talk but falling away later on in life.

The example I gave is a true story based on my life. I went to church voluntarily growing up (my parents never went, and they certainly didn't tell me to go), and I continued going to church for several years as an adult also. I truly did believe, whether you choose to believe that or not. Now, I don't believe. It has nothing to do with being color-blind or ignoring the arguments of the other side. I just don't believe anymore.

The situation of Demas doesn't really apply to me. It's never said in the Bible exactly why he left Paul, and it never says that he quit believing in God. Paul simply says that Demas has forsaken him.

 

[The Joker]

Its true....dont you dare tell me its not. I dont have to prove anything to you. The proof is there within the scriptures for anyone who wants to take off their spiritual blinders and look. I liken it to being color blind..I can show you the color blue all I want but you will only see brown. You trust what only what you see and refuse to accept any evidence presented to you by scores of people who claim its blue. You are color blind....blind being the operative word. You do not want proof regarding the things of God. No matter what you see, you will stubbornly cling to your own belief because doing anything else requires you to humble yourself and admit that you're a sinner in need of God's forgiveness. Its not my responsibility to force you to believe so dont blame me (or Christians in general) and say that its because you havent been shown any proof. Jesus Christ could come and stand before you and speak to you face to face and you would explain it away as a hallucination..purely chemical in essence. So lets not pretend that you would ever accept any proof shared with you by others.

I am sorry if thats harsh, Jim. We've been through this before and i'm not about to tiptoe around your feelings because I know that our friendship is not at stake if I am open with you, just as you are always open with me on this subject.

I hesitate to get too involved in any of these religious debates. But i still have very strong opinions and like to toss them out there once in awhile. I'm always open to pm's if anyone wants to talk about it, though.

This reasoning is completely bias. You are basing your argument on the beliefe there is a god. Take a step back for a few minutes, and assume you didn't know whether there was or not. Ask yourself "If there is a god, why don't I know he exists?" The answer is simply, Because there is no evidence.

It's all well and good to believe in religion, and there are different religions for different kinds of people, one religion does not suit all. Tell me now, Christianity says the SAME thing as EVERY other religion, no?

"Christianity is the one true faith, our God is real, and Our Bible is completely true!"

Every single religion says that. Even when presented with absoloutley no evidence to the fact. Why? Faith.

The fact of the matter is, some humans are able to strongly believe in things that they don't see.

Remember, as well, we have been brought up in a society that needs evidence for just about anything, for example, Trials. If you went to a murder trial with a book that said a person commited murder. And you SWORE it was ABSOLOUTLEY TRUE. There is no way you would win said trial. If you went with DNA evidence, Video Evidence, Witness reports, you'd easily win.

The fact of the matter is, you can't come in here and tell us that the bible is absoloutley true, that we are wrong and there is a magic man in the sky who cares about everything we do, with NO evidence on the matter.

 

[lumpenstein]

Hey Joker! I have been arguing religion with val for years so I hope you realize you are butting your head against a very hard and unmoveable wall.

She is denying reality by not recognizing that "truth" implies evidence to support it. She has the gall to publicly accuse me of having a temper but if I quoted her as saying "Its true....dont you dare tell me its not." as being the utterings of an insane person she would take offence.

If you insist on posting in this thread be prepared to be repeatedly thumped with the bible!

 

[The Joker]

Haha, maybe I'll back away slowly. xD


But, yea, good thing you didn't say it was the utterings of an insane person

 

[valley]

Fair enough, the same way I don't have to prove that you are obstinate and summarily dismiss anything out of hand that dares contradict the bible.

yeah...well the only thing I will deny in that is that I dont reject things "out of hand" I generally scoff at them a bit first before I do that!

:jk

As for miracles, I'll let you know when I am shown irrefutable evidence of one.

What kind of evidence would you be willing to accept as "irrefutable", then?

 

[valley]

The situation of Demas doesn't really apply to me. It's never said in the Bible exactly why he left Paul, and it never says that he quit believing in God. Paul simply says that Demas has forsaken him.

Actually, Paul says in 2 tim. 4:10 that "Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me" (emphasis mine)

Paul was going through some heavy persecution. Demas was a fair-weather believer who didnt have the faith to sustain him through tough times. He totally abandoned Paul at a time when Paul was relying on him. Paul was one faithful guy and a mighty man of God....Demas fooled him into thinking he was a true believer. He talked the talk and walked the walk but like the man who's house is built on sinking sand..when the winds came and storm ensured, the foundation gave way and his "faith" collapsed and he deserted the work that they were doing because he was never truly committed to it in the first place..he just thought he was.

 

[Fox Mulder]

As for miracles, I'll let you know when I am shown irrefutable evidence of one.

Mulder--there is your miracle! :cool

 

[valley]

This reasoning is completely bias. You are basing your argument on the beliefe there is a god.

So? Jim is basing his argument of the premise that there is no God. Whats your point?

Take a step back for a few minutes, and assume you didn't know whether there was or not. Ask yourself "If there is a god, why don't I know he exists?" The answer is simply, Because there is no evidence.

There is lots of evidence..

Tell me now, Christianity says the SAME thing as EVERY other religion, no?

lol, no Joker, it most certainly does not say the same thing as every other religion.

"Christianity is the one true faith, our God is real, and Our Bible is completely true!"

Every single religion says that. Even when presented with absoloutley no evidence to the fact. Why? Faith.

Christianity is a factual faith. It is not based on "blind acceptance" of myths and legends. I will tell you one thing right up front and that is that my heart does not rejoice in what my mind rejects. I did not commit intellectual suicide when I became a believer. Actually *first thump* the Bible commands that we "love the Lord your God with all of your heart, with all your soul and with all of your mind" (Matt 22:37) See that last word? With all of your mind? God does not require people to throw their brains in the trash in order to have faith in Him. I did not one day suddenly "decide" to believe. I studied long and hard before I was convinced...and convinced I was so while you may think there is no evidence to support that Christianity is the one true faith, I found plenty, as did millions of other people out there.

Yes, I have faith...but its not blind faith. Its faith in the living God Who has created all things.

The fact of the matter is, some humans are able to strongly believe in things that they don't see.

this is true. But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water, ok?

Remember, as well, we have been brought up in a society that needs evidence for just about anything, for example, Trials. If you went to a murder trial with a book that said a person commited murder. And you SWORE it was ABSOLOUTLEY TRUE. There is no way you would win said trial. If you went with DNA evidence, Video Evidence, Witness reports, you'd easily win.

agreed. That is why I needed evidence in order to move my heart to believe. I could not commit my heart and soul to something that was just a possibility. My mind is not wired that way. I have a great need for answers and it took a long time for me to be able to be this sure of what I believe. Yes, I can just sit back and say "I believe in Christ alone through faith alone" and quite simply....thats all it takes really. But from there...what good does it do to believe in something without being able to share it in a relevant way with other people? I( am not satisfied with simple belief and nothing more...I want more. I want to KNOW my Lord and Savior and not just use His name to conjure up some warm and fuzzy feelings in myself and others, know what I mean?

The fact of the matter is, you can't come in here and tell us that the bible is absoloutley true, that we are wrong and there is a magic man in the sky who cares about everything we do, with NO evidence on the matter.

I wouldnt come in here and say anything if I didnt believe that there was evidence to support my beliefs. The thing is..I dont think i'm going to change anyone's mind here so I am not going to bother arguing back and forth (for too much longer, lol) because its a waste of my time and yours.

 

[valley]

wow...i'm really happy to see that 4 other people voted the same way that I did!

 

[Sloth]

The bible is filled with a bunch of bullcrap inside. Everything is false. God doesn't exist.

 

[valley]

The bible is filled with a bunch of bullcrap inside. Everything is false. God doesn't exist.

Well, you'll find many people here who are just like you in that belief so welcome aboard on their behalf.

 

[Sloth]

You're wrong. It's not my belief...it's not even an opinion. It's a fact. The bible was written a long time ago...it's all completely made up. I don't see God talking to me now. The bible said he would...but he hasn't. Where the hell is this bastard at? Therefore, I'm concluding that the bible is crap. None of it is true...

 

[valley]

well..good luck with that.

 

[Sloth]

Good luck with what exactly? Oh, I forgot I'm talking to a self-delusional person. I might get sent to Hell now for not believing what you believe in. Oh shit...what should I do? Maybe I should get my sins washed away or some stupid shit like that! Yeah, forget it...I'm not falling for that.