Credible critics of the official account of 9/11

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nova

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Are you surprised that so many engineers and architects have found nothing untoward? Everyone that dares to question the official story gets labelled a conspiracy nut! They probably daren't risk their careers. ..

You're very much correct, they would be risking their careers, but not because they'd be labeled a conspiracy nut but the politicians/general public etc.

No they would be risking their careers because the engineering and architectural community at large would rightly question their competency.

The failure modes of the WTC along with the behavior of the structures of the Pentagon under the impact are EXTREMELY well understood. We engineers have been studying these things for quite a while and in fact the understanding is backed by 100+ years of design, analysis and test.

We engineers understand very well what we're working with and how structures behave, even under failure conditions, thats the whole reason its exceedingly rare for major structures to fail catastrophically.

I have textbooks sitting on my shelf at home, written nearly 50 years ago, that describe, almost to the letter, the failure mode that the WTC underwent. Its a classic progressive failure of a damage tolerant structure that has exceeding its capacity for absorbing damage along a particular load axis. There are even pretty detailed equations that describe the behavior.
 
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GuesSAngel

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Uh, like what?

People hide behind "Oh, we're not saying it was a conspiracy! We just want to find THE TRUTH!"

Well, no, you guys ARE implying that there is a conspiracy because you're looking for one when you say you want to find "the truth" behind the incident.

The truth is, a few planes got hijacked by Islamic extremists, which has happened many times before, and crashed them into buildings where the structural integrity was compromised and weakee3ned. This led to their collapse.

and the other building right next to the towers that wasn't hit by a plane? What I meant to say was, the answers to the questions don't make sense.
 

nova

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and the other building right next to the towers that wasn't hit by a plane?

You mean the one that was first damaged structurally by the debris from the twin towers and then subsequently caught on fire due to the aforementioned damage? Yeah, that combination of structural damage and fire weakening the remaining structural steel is well within the bounds of "things that will cause a building to collapse." :24:
 

sierrabravo

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hey i think i solved the mystery. a plane crashed into a building, it was structurally damaged and fell down. case closed.
 

GuesSAngel

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You mean the one that was first damaged structurally by the debris from the twin towers and then subsequently caught on fire due to the aforementioned damage? Yeah, that combination of structural damage and fire weakening the remaining structural steel is well within the bounds of "things that will cause a building to collapse." :24:

oh yeah, all of that dust just charging through...oh wait you're right...the twin towers were all over the place downtown and not in one spot...so that other building had to catch on fire. must have been the power of god.

Nova has already answered your question. Stop looking for tigers in the grass.

no he really didn't
 

All Else Failed

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Are you aware that there were steel beams and chunks of concrete that weighed several tons a piece falling on the building?


Are you aware of things called "gas lines" that were ruptured and caused individual fires?






Again, you're looking for mysteries where they don't exist.
 
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MoonOwl

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Anyone care to explain Building 7? Or why there are/were traces of explosives (Termite) in the dust at Ground Zero?

What about those who heard explosions coming from the bottom of the towers before the planes hit and why were those eye-witness accounts left out of the Commission report?

Or why George Bush sat in a school full of kids in a previously-disclosed location, four miles from an airport with an unknown amount of hijacked planes in the air? Why 'excuse me kids, I gotta go do PresidentStuff right now. Thanks for having me' ' didn't come out of his mouth as he calmly left the school instead of sitting there while all this was unfolding?

Or why the biggest crime scene in this nations history was swept away so quickly?

There are plenty of real questions that have never been answered. Until they are, questioning minds will always wonder.

Now, by mentioning these things does that make me a "Conspiracy Theorist"? Or, someone who wants to know what really happened?

How about newscasters saying it takes 45minutes to get a fighter jet in the air? Really??? Really????

There are plenty of things about that day that official heads should have been fired. Yet, none were.

Do I think our government allowed it to happen to further agendas? I'd like to hope the fuck not. That's too scary to contemplate. That being said, sadly, false-flag attacks are in our history.

I know one thing. One never believes what the government says lock, stock & barrel. That would be foolish. That they were quick to label any questioner 'UnPatriotic' says much. That's a page from Goebbels.

I think we owe it to all who died on that tragic day to leave no worthy questions unanswered. As high, far & wide as it goes. Yet they never will be.

p.s. Yes, I think a plane hit the Pentagon.
 
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Tim

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Are you aware that there were steel beams and chunks of concrete that weighed several tons a piece falling on the building?


Are you aware of things called "gas lines" that were ruptured and caused individual fires?






Again, you're looking for mysteries where they don't exist.

The building was virtually untouched by falling debris. There are many pictures of the front of the building after the north and south towers collapsed that confirm this.
The collapse of building 7 was due to the fires alone. This is the part that is hard to believe by some.
 

Tim

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Just too many questions for me to accept that it went down exactly as it was sold to the public.


How about the BBC reporting that building 7 collapsed 20 minutes before it actually did? Very curious.

The FBI has stated that none of the 4 black boxes were recovered while there are eye witnesses who watched them haul them out.
 

MoonOwl

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Just too many questions for me to accept that it went down exactly as it was sold to the public.


How about the BBC reporting that building 7 collapsed 20 minutes before it actually did? Very curious.

The FBI has stated that none of the 4 black boxes were recovered while there are eye witnesses who watched them haul them out.


I've seen that broadcast and heard about the black boxes too.

I agree, many legit questions left unanswered. Which they should be. For those who died that day and for all those who have died since.
 

dt3

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Anyone care to explain Building 7? Or why there are/were traces of explosives (Termite) in the dust at Ground Zero?
Beats me, I'm not a civil engineer or a construction expert. But given it's use in welding steel I would hazard a guess that it wouldn't be uncommon to find traces of thermite in any old steel structure.

What about those who heard explosions coming from the bottom of the towers before the planes hit and why were those eye-witness accounts left out of the Commission report?
Eye-witnesses are the absolutely most unreliable factor in any sort of investigation. Especially during something as unexpected and traumatic as this. I'm not saying they're lying, or even that there weren't explosions at the bottom of the building, but to build a significant argument you need a hell of a lot more than "somebody heard something". How many eye-witnesses have seen bigfoot, Elvis, and aliens?

Or why George Bush sat in a school full of kids in a previously-disclosed location, four miles from an airport with an unknown amount of hijacked planes in the air? Why 'excuse me kids, I gotta go do PresidentStuff right now. Thanks for having me' ' didn't come out of his mouth as he calmly left the school instead of sitting there while all this was unfolding?
This is by far one of the arguments I least understand out of all the conspiracy theories. Of course he didn't leave after the first plane hit the first tower. One plane hitting a building is a tragedy, not an act of terror. Only once the second plane hit did it become evident that it was an attack and not an isolated accident.

In fact, if he HAD appeared to know the first plane was a terrorist attack, I would be FAR more concerned.

Or why the biggest crime scene in this nations history was swept away so quickly?
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. 8 months of cleanup seems reasonable to me.

There are plenty of real questions that have never been answered. Until they are, questioning minds will always wonder.

Now, by mentioning these things does that make me a "Conspiracy Theorist"? Or, someone who wants to know what really happened?

How about newscasters saying it takes 45minutes to get a fighter jet in the air? Really??? Really????

There are plenty of things about that day that official heads should have been fired. Yet, none were.

Do I think our government allowed it to happen to further agendas? I'd like to hope the fuck not. That's too scary to contemplate. That being said, sadly, false-flag attacks are in our history.

I know one thing. One never believes what the government says lock, stock & barrel. That would be foolish. That they were quick to label any questioner 'UnPatriotic' says much. That's a page from Goebbels.

I think we owe it to all who died on that tragic day to leave no worthy questions unanswered. As high, far & wide as it goes. Yet they never will be.

p.s. Yes, I think a plane hit the Pentagon.
A newscaster said it takes 45 minutes to get a fighter jet in the air? So? Just because a news-caster says that doesn't mean it's the truth, and it certainly isn't evidence of a massive government cover-up.

Go ahead and ask questions, that's certainly anybody's prerogative in a free society. The problem with this particular conspiracy theory in my mind is that everybody who does the questioning seems to have an agenda. It always turns into a Bush-bash more than an attempt to further understand what happened that day. And, like ALL conspiracy theories, there are plenty of believers who absolutely will never change their mind regardless of what evidence is presented.
 
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dt3

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Just too many questions for me to accept that it went down exactly as it was sold to the public.


How about the BBC reporting that building 7 collapsed 20 minutes before it actually did? Very curious.
Conflicting reports in the midst of confusion is hardly surprising to me. The visibility was near zero for hours, I'm not surprised that there would be erroneous reports. Hell, this version of the conspiracy would require the government AND news media to be involved, and that just makes it even harder for me to put any stock in it.

The FBI has stated that none of the 4 black boxes were recovered while there are eye witnesses who watched them haul them out.
Are there any pictures of them removing the black boxes? Surely with all the national attention and insane amount of public coverage, somebody would have footage of them being removed, right? How many average Americans are even qualified to tell the difference between one of the black boxes and any other internal aircraft component?
 

nova

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oh yeah, all of that dust just charging through...oh wait you're right...the twin towers were all over the place downtown and not in one spot...so that other building had to catch on fire. must have been the power of god.

If you think that the towers pulverized completely into dust as they fell, you're deluded.

Here's a nifty map of the site before

wtc_map.jpg



And here's some aerial photos after the fact.

200307WTC6and7aerial.jpg



See how heavily damaged 6 WTC is? 7 WTC was only something like 300 feet from the towers. The towers were nearly 1500 ft tall and contrary to popular belief did not fall exactly straight down. Based on the picture above is it that hard to believe that 7 WTC suffered some structural damage in the collapse of the towers?

That coupled with the somewhat unusual load transfer scheme utilized in 7 WTC lead to a situation where the fires (fueled by both gas lines and the fuel tanks from backup generators in the building) weakend the remaining structure enough to cause a collapse.

People talk on and on about "why didn't 5 and 6 WTC collapse despite the damage." The answer is their different structural design. 5 and 6 WTC were simply more damage tolerant designs than 7 WTC.

Long story short is that all these conspiracy theories come from people who have absolutely no clue WTF they're talking about. They have a pre-conceived notion of "how things are supposed to work" based on "common sense" which applies not one iota to the realities of physics and engineering. There are many phenomena in both areas that run completely counter to what intuition and "common sense" say they should...

These things I'm bringing up are blindingly obvious if you've ever done structural analysis

find me the video then, i don't recall watching any steel beams hitting the other building.

You know that massive cloud of dust you keep talking about, just think about what that does to what you can see.....


Anyone care to explain Building 7? Or why there are/were traces of explosives (Termite) in the dust at Ground Zero?

Thermite is not an explosive, not even close. Its a mixture of powdered aluminum and iron oxide used primarily for welding applications. The reaction involves the heat from the burning aluminum releasing the oxygen from the iron oxide, which then feeds the flame, increasing the temps to the point necessary to weld thick steel, while at the same time releasing molten iron to serve as the fill material of the weld

If someone found "traces" of thermite, that means they found aluminum and steel. Where oh where could those come from when an airplane thats 98% aluminum crashes into a building thats 75% steel"? :willy_nilly:

For 7 WTC see above.


What about those who heard explosions coming from the bottom of the towers before the planes hit and why were those eye-witness accounts left out of the Commission report?

People are stupid in general and eye-witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. There are people convinced they heard explosions when the levys broke in NO too but its a bunch of BS. It basically amounts to people convincing themselves they heard/saw things they didn't as our mind is more than willing to play tricks on us.

How about newscasters saying it takes 45minutes to get a fighter jet in the air? Really??? Really????

Thats exactly right. They're not like cars where you walk out, turn the key and go. It takes effort and money to keep fighters on alert status where they can take off on extremely short notice. We pretty much stopped keeping fighters on alert status at the end of the cold war up until 9/11. I guarantee now fighters could be put in the air in 5-10 minutes.

I know one thing. One never believes what the government says lock, stock & barrel. That would be foolish. That they were quick to label any questioner 'UnPatriotic' says much. That's a page from Goebbels.

I don't either, but all the official reports, simulations, etc etc, jive with how structures and materials behave as I've learned them in my education and training as an engineer...
 

Tim

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Not a Bush bash for me. If the government had any knowledge of what was going to happen that day, I firmly believe Bush would have been the last to know. :D
 
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