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SgtSpike

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I get your point but it seems all those things make up the economy.

I do not see anything that is going to make CEO's and Big Business be more accountable and making better decisions. Greed is what drives most of them.

I do not see consumers being smarter. There is a reason that lenders used to be very careful when giving loans. Which was proven when greedy people took out loans on houses they could not afford and ran up massive credit card balances.

And there is no way in hell the govt is going to suddenly get smart. The only way that happens is if people become more involved. If anything we are more apathetic than ever.
Ok, I agree with you on these things, but I do NOT agree that regulation is the solution, and that seems to be what you are implying... correct me if I am wrong. :)

Those things are PART of the economy, but what matters most is GDP. The more GDP per capita we are making, the better off we will be. And sadly, most of the policies liberals have actually end up reducing GDP...
 
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Alien Allen

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Ok, I agree with you on these things, but I do NOT agree that regulation is the solution, and that seems to be what you are implying... correct me if I am wrong. :)

Those things are PART of the economy, but what matters most is GDP. The more GDP per capita we are making, the better off we will be. And sadly, most of the policies liberals have actually end up reducing GDP...

SOME regulation is necessary. The problem is when it gets out of control. One example is the onerous rules for truckers. Does anybody think the roads are safer than 20 years ago?? I don't. Yet I have to pay a lot to comply with CDL requirements. Govt is a monster. I don't see anybody taming it.

As to the GDP thing I would agree if we did not have SS and Medicare to deal with.
 

Tim

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Ok, I agree with you on these things, but I do NOT agree that regulation is the solution, and that seems to be what you are implying... correct me if I am wrong. :)

Those things are PART of the economy, but what matters most is GDP. The more GDP per capita we are making, the better off we will be. And sadly, most of the policies liberals have actually end up reducing GDP...

Actually GDP does not reflect the health of a nation, just it's wealth. If you want to see the true health of a nation you need to look at it's GPI (Genuine Progress Indicator) The GDP of America has gone up every year yet the GPI has remained at or about the 1950's level. By only looking at out nations GDP, it would be like determining the health of a company by looking at its gross profit and not factoring any costs. If you really want to see the health of a company/nation, you need to look at its net profits and that's what the GPI does for countries.


It's funny how congress sent detroit packing until they can produce a plan on how they intend to use the $25billion. They want to see caps on executive pay, a sustainability plan and many other restrictions before they consider loaning them the money. Yet Citi Bank just got another $20billion yesterday with no strings attached. It makes me sick!
If I were in financial trouble and needed cash, went to Citi Bank for a credit card, my rate would be 29.99% IF they even gave me one. So what was the interest rate used to loan them our tax dollars?

BTW, you guys might want to check all of your credit cards. Out of my 6 cards, 2 have raised the interest rate. My Citi Bank card went from 6% to 22%. Thank god they are both low enough that I will just pay them off. The thing that pisses me off is that my credit rating is excellent and I have never been late on any of them. I even pay 2x or 3x the minimum payment each month. I'm not even close to being maxed on any of them. FUCKERS! They can all take their card and shove them up their collective asses. I will remember who is good to me through all of this.
 

RedRyder

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BTW, you guys might want to check all of your credit cards. Out of my 6 cards, 2 have raised the interest rate. My Citi Bank card went from 6% to 22%. Thank god they are both low enough that I will just pay them off. The thing that pisses me off is that my credit rating is excellent and I have never been late on any of them. I even pay 2x or 3x the minimum payment each month. I'm not even close to being maxed on any of them. FUCKERS! They can all take their card and shove them up their collective asses. I will remember who is good to me through all of this.

I hear you there, Tim. I had a card go from 6.9% to 15.9%. I called to ask why. Same scenario as you.... I pay more than the minimum, never late, etc. They told me they were raising it for everyone. No one was randomly selected! WTH? I transferred the balance to another card. Now I get these letters from them offering me a lower fixed rate for the life of a balance transfer!

I also had one double the minimum payment! I called them on it. First person was a ditz and thought I'd be satisfied with her answer. Hardly. Spoke to a supervisor. Had to wait a few minutes. Anyway, the supervisor said they were just trying to help their customers pay off their balances sooner! Ummmm.... yeah sure. They switched it back for me.

So.... just call your credit card companies if they play games. Ask for a supervisor. And get the last word!

Yep.... soon as I pay off these cards, I'm cutting them up. Maybe keep one in case of emergency only..... or if I need to rent a car.
 

Alien Allen

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the other thing they do is to check your credit rating and if you have anything show up where somebody was paid late they will up your loan rate.

back to autos

Nissan just indicated they will not be coming to the North American Auto Show in Detroit. The auto show is a big deal for Detroit. another kick in the nuts for MI.

and yeah it is fucking absurd that congress is playing hardball will the auto bailout after what they just gave away to AIG, Wall St. and not Citi Group. I guess first come first served. what a bunch of clowns in DC
 

Tim

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BailoutBoulevard.gif
 

Docc_eee_aww

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There are a few mistakes everyone makes when looking at the automotive industry:
1) The big three are very differant companies from each other. First, Ford -- they have reduced costs in the US substantially, and make money in the rest of the world. Mullaly is going in the right direction integrating Ford globally and they have great, global product coming out over the next couple years. Ford is reducing costs, inputting flexability, and getting more efficient. GM -- the same management level at GM makes 40% more than the same level at Ford. GM is over staffed and inefficient. In order to stay alive they need to reduce costs AND get more effcient, both of which GM is not effectively planning. Also, GM has cut many future vehicle programs. Chrysler is a mess. Daimler took many ofl the good processes and people, and that wasn't much. Chrysler has lower costs, but very low quality and not a very effective plan to survive. They are cooked no matter what.
2) Toyota and Honda are heavily subsidized by the Japanese government. Also, in the US companies are tasked with funding retirees (company paid pensions), while in Japan (and most other countrys building cars) the governement (basically) takes care of the aging. This is a huge advantage, especially if the our companies are over 100 years old. We, the US of A, have also heavily subsidized Honda and Toyota at the state level -- Alabama gave Toyota land and built buildings and roads, while erasing tax burden (which is why Alabama is one of the least publically educated states).
3) Bankruptcy would erase the US industry. Think about it -- there are thousands of automotive parts supplliers. It takes over 4,000 parts to build a car, and 8,000 to service that car (don't forget, they don't just build a vehicle and forget it, that vehicle is serviced up to 20 years after production). GM has already put substantial stress on their suppliers, forcing many to go bankrupt. Most of these suppliers supply the other compnaies and it costs hundreds of millions to move tooling or re-tool. If GM files bankruptcy, the supply base (including those for Toyota and honda, and that's why they are in the background hoping for some $ to GM) will go under. This will put such financial strain on everyone else that they too will file for bankruptcy. The cost to fix all this would be substantially more than fixing it before bankrupcty (now, granted, we need to fix it correctly). Good luck getting your 1998 Honda Civic fixed, let alone your 2001 Focus, and forget your Jeep, if GM files bancruptcy.

Of course, there's much more, but I don't want to bore you to death.
 

SgtSpike

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There are a few mistakes everyone makes when looking at the automotive industry:
1) The big three are very differant companies from each other. First, Ford -- they have reduced costs in the US substantially, and make money in the rest of the world. Mullaly is going in the right direction integrating Ford globally and they have great, global product coming out over the next couple years. Ford is reducing costs, inputting flexability, and getting more efficient. GM -- the same management level at GM makes 40% more than the same level at Ford. GM is over staffed and inefficient. In order to stay alive they need to reduce costs AND get more effcient, both of which GM is not effectively planning. Also, GM has cut many future vehicle programs. Chrysler is a mess. Daimler took many ofl the good processes and people, and that wasn't much. Chrysler has lower costs, but very low quality and not a very effective plan to survive. They are cooked no matter what.
2) Toyota and Honda are heavily subsidized by the Japanese government. Also, in the US companies are tasked with funding retirees (company paid pensions), while in Japan (and most other countrys building cars) the governement (basically) takes care of the aging. This is a huge advantage, especially if the our companies are over 100 years old. We, the US of A, have also heavily subsidized Honda and Toyota at the state level -- Alabama gave Toyota land and built buildings and roads, while erasing tax burden (which is why Alabama is one of the least publically educated states).
3) Bankruptcy would erase the US industry. Think about it -- there are thousands of automotive parts supplliers. It takes over 4,000 parts to build a car, and 8,000 to service that car (don't forget, they don't just build a vehicle and forget it, that vehicle is serviced up to 20 years after production). GM has already put substantial stress on their suppliers, forcing many to go bankrupt. Most of these suppliers supply the other compnaies and it costs hundreds of millions to move tooling or re-tool. If GM files bankruptcy, the supply base (including those for Toyota and honda, and that's why they are in the background hoping for some $ to GM) will go under. This will put such financial strain on everyone else that they too will file for bankruptcy. The cost to fix all this would be substantially more than fixing it before bankrupcty (now, granted, we need to fix it correctly). Good luck getting your 1998 Honda Civic fixed, let alone your 2001 Focus, and forget your Jeep, if GM files bancruptcy.

Of course, there's much more, but I don't want to bore you to death.
Your third point I completely disagree with. As long as their is a market for car parts, there will be suppliers who make them. Even if they have to retool and raise prices a little, there will still be suppliers in the free market we have. We have close to 300 million cars on the road in America now - how can you say that just because GM went under, no one would be able to make parts for them anymore?
 

Strauss

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3) Bankruptcy would erase the US industry. Think about it -- there are thousands of automotive parts supplliers. It takes over 4,000 parts to build a car, and 8,000 to service that car (don't forget, they don't just build a vehicle and forget it, that vehicle is serviced up to 20 years after production). GM has already put substantial stress on their suppliers, forcing many to go bankrupt. Most of these suppliers supply the other compnaies and it costs hundreds of millions to move tooling or re-tool. If GM files bankruptcy, the supply base (including those for Toyota and honda, and that's why they are in the background hoping for some $ to GM) will go under. This will put such financial strain on everyone else that they too will file for bankruptcy. The cost to fix all this would be substantially more than fixing it before bankrupcty (now, granted, we need to fix it correctly). Good luck getting your 1998 Honda Civic fixed, let alone your 2001 Focus, and forget your Jeep, if GM files bancruptcy.

Of course, there's much more, but I don't want to bore you to death.

Not necessarily, there would be many lenders standing in line to finance GM or Ford or Chrysler once they file bankruptcy. Might get a better deal them what could be offered by Congress. In any event, Chapter 11 isn't going to put any of the three out of business and could actually benefit their suppliers.
 

Minor Axis

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If you did not read it all ready in Newsweek, here is a sad article Saturn Was Supposed To Save GM describing how after Roger Smith retired, GM crushed Saturn. It was supposed to be a U.S. car manufacturer's answer to Japan. And all parties are to blame, GM management, the Union, and other GM dealers.
 

Minor Axis

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The Auto landacape has changed now. Best to start a new thread. Ford can stand on its own. GM and Chrysler might go for Chapter 9. (landscape)(chapter 11 rather)

It's a judgment on my part whether to start a new thread or add to a thread that all ready exists about the auto industry and my link concerned something that happened in the past with GM and Saturn and a possibility that was squandered that might have made a huge impact on today's U.S. auto industry.
 

SgtSpike

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I just had to come back here to say to all of you who supported the billion dollars of bailout money to automaker: "I told ya so." ;)
 

kelvin070

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The Auto landacape has changed now. Best to start a new thread. Ford can stand on its own. GM and Chrysler might go for Chapter 9. (landscape)(chapter 11 rather)
As predicted by me.
AP sources: Chrysler to file for bankruptcy.
Two Obama administration officials say Chrysler will file for bankruptcy protection after talks broke down with a small group of the company's creditors.
The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the filing plan has not been formally announced.
 

Alien Allen

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I just had to come back here to say to all of you who supported the billion dollars of bailout money to automaker: "I told ya so." ;)
The last laugh will not be yours. Next up will be GM who will have the govt as a major stockholder. That should tickle your loins.

And if there had been a bankruptcy back when you wanted it that would have been an uncontrolled disaster.

Hope you do not know anybody in the supply business to the auto companies because they are going to end up getting royally fucked. The will be lucky to see pennies on the dollar.

Also how the hell can we end up with anything but a mess when the UAW has a share of GM. How the hell can Ford get a square deal when it comes to contract time when they are negotiating against a union that has part ownership in a competitor.

This all is a friggin mess and the bastards that brought this to us ... the god damn banks are getting away unscathed while the nuts and bolts of the engine that drives our economy take it up the ass.
 
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