Auto bailout

[SgtSpike]

So what's more important to you? Free market or our democracy?

From your views I wouldn't be surprised if you would forgo democracy for that almighty buck.

We have a republic, not a democracy. It's hard telling which is more important, because without one, you couldn't really have the other.

How old are you? I can not believe you could make such an ignorant comment. The auto industry what born here. It saved our fucking asses in WWII when factories were retooled. This is mind boggling how you dismiss the history.

So sentimental feelings for a company means we should throw billions of dollars at it to save it? Sorry, but there are a ton of other things I'd rather throw billions at, and actually see a RoI on.

You are so hell bent on the idea of destroying the unions it has become comical. Before making an uneducated comment such as this you might bone up on the facts. In case you missed it the unions made concessions and with other restructuring the cars will cost $5k less to build next year. Sure the unions and the companies got greedy. But that was the past. Those problems by necessity are being addressed. You act like it is still the status quo.

Because the unions shouldn't have been there in the first place. Anything that messes with the free market, with the exception of regulation for scarce resources, only hinders our economic progress.

Take unions and flip them 180 degrees. Would it be fair for a company to force people to work there for $1/hr for the rest of their lives, or else the employee has to pay them thousands of dollars for a settlement? Of course not! In the same manner, it is not fair for employees to be able to force a company to employee them at a high wage, or else the company has to pay thousands of dollars to terminate them!

You keep parroting the same stuff Sarge. Again there have been concessions. Also you never seem to address the other major factor of the banks in this mess. The unions and auto companies made concessions that were to kick in next year and that was agreed to long before the bank collapse last fall.

I'll just go back to my original statement, that the unions should have never been in place in the first place. IF there was no automaker's union, then no concessions would have had to been made, and the US automakers would still be relatively healthy companies today.

Are you living in a cave Sarge. Wake up the govt is taking over the auto companies because Obama not satisfied with giving loans. Unless Obama pulls a surprise and gives General Motors a break it will soon have the more apt title of Government Motors.

Do you think I'm happy with that outcome? I would rather see the companies be completely liquidated than be government controlled OR have more "bailout" money thrown at them. If they got themselves into this mess, they can figure a way out themselves. You reap what you sow.

 

[Alien Allen]

Sarge I suggest you read up on the unions, auto workers, and the Big 3

You have no idea what you are talking about. The unions got out of hand. They had too much power. That however is in the past. The same as the reason they started out to begin with when workers were mistreated.

I am far from a union apologist but they pale in comparison to what you allude to anymore except for the govt union and the teachers union.

It is a shame you have such a closed mind that you so want to destroy the auto union at all cost.

 

[Strauss]

It is a shame you have such a closed mind that you so want to destroy the auto union at all cost.

Yeah see how successful Honda is with the union in Tennessee. Wait.....that's not right.
:24:

 

[SgtSpike]

Sarge I suggest you read up on the unions, auto workers, and the Big 3

You have no idea what you are talking about. The unions got out of hand. They had too much power. That however is in the past. The same as the reason they started out to begin with when workers were mistreated.

I am far from a union apologist but they pale in comparison to what you allude to anymore except for the govt union and the teachers union.

It is a shame you have such a closed mind that you so want to destroy the auto union at all cost.

What benefit do unions give us, as America as a whole? Not just for the lucky workers who manage to get themselves a union job, but for everyone else? It is unfair for some workers to be paid more than they are worth, and that is exactly what the unions give them. Unskilled labor being paid $75/hr after benefits, when the same job would bring $25/hr in any non-union position. Not only does it kill the companies who have the unions when they try to compete with non-union companies (as we see with the automakers here), but it discourages other companies from starting here in America, because they always have the fear of their workers unionizing. I do not believe that the benefits to the few union workers lucky enough to get one of those jobs outweigh the costs to our economy and overall America.

And THAT is why I want to kill the unions. It would be better for us as a nation if they did not exist.

 

[Alien Allen]

Sarge there is no way the unions are going to be eliminated..

I have big issues with the teachers unions and the govt ones but the UAW have made significant concessions. The stuff you keep regurgitating is in the past.

 

[SgtSpike]

Sarge there is no way the unions are going to be eliminated..

I know I know, wishful thinking on my part.

I have big issues with the teachers unions and the govt ones but the UAW have made significant concessions. The stuff you keep regurgitating is in the past.

But that doesn't mean it won't crop right back up in the future. I agree that things are fine right now, and concessions have been made that have certainly brought the companies closer to being competitive with non-union companies, but I see the exact same thing happening in the future, when the companies are back on solid ground and doing well. The unions are just gonna jack up their wages again.

So, I agree that what I said might not be happening now. But it certainly happened in the past, and it will almost certainly happen in the future.

 

[Minor Axis]

The unions are just gonna jack up their wages again.

You mean unions maneuver for better wages, just like the corporate board room does? Shocking. Tell me who has been more successful filling their pockets?

 

[SgtSpike]

You mean unions maneuver for better wages, just like the corporate board room does? Shocking. Tell me who has been more successful filling their pockets?

Kinda hard when the company can't say "no". Workers can say "no" to lower wages and simply find another job. Companies with union workers cannot say "no" to higher wages and find other employees. So no, unions are not maneuvering for better wages just like the corporate board room does.

And who is more successful? The unions, of course. Owners of companies (AKA stockholders) are getting completely pwned, if you haven't noticed.

 

[Minor Axis]

Kinda hard when the company can't say "no". Workers can say "no" to lower wages and simply find another job. Companies with union workers cannot say "no" to higher wages and find other employees. So no, unions are not maneuvering for better wages just like the corporate board room does.

And who is more successful? The unions, of course. Owners of companies (AKA stockholders) are getting completely pwned, if you haven't noticed.

Yes there were cases where union's overreached, but they have been completely overshadowed by corrupt corporate leadership. The vast amount of bailout money has gone to financial companies. When the bubble burst, stockholders are being pwned by greedy bastard corporate leaders and the supportive boardroom whose number one goal was enriching themselves at the expense of their companies.

 

[SgtSpike]

Yes there were cases where union's overreached, but they have been completely overshadowed by corrupt corporate leadership. The vast amount of bailout money has gone to financial companies. When the bubble burst, stockholders are being pwned by greedy bastard corporate leaders and the supportive boardroom whose number one goal was enriching themselves at the expense of their companies.

All I was saying is that stockholders are losing money because unions have unfair bargaining power to get higher wages.

And bailout money shouldn't have gone to anyone. Anyone in their right mind could have seen that dumping money into failing companies is NOT the right way to go about economic recovery. Not to mention that the same executives causing the failure in the first place would more than likely just figure out how to maximize their own share of the bailout funds, rather than try to right the company, which is exactly what you describe.

 

[Alien Allen]

This is damn interesting video about GM and China

The marriage started before the bailout but nothing was done about GM bedding with the Chicons

It is fairly long about 9 minutes but passes quickly.

I have not bothered to fact check and I doubt I need to. The narrator is Vince Wade who was a very credible reporter on a local station for years and I would stand behind his findings.


http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo

 

[Francis]

This is damn interesting video about GM and China

The marriage started before the bailout but nothing was done about GM bedding with the Chicons

It is fairly long about 9 minutes but passes quickly.

I have not bothered to fact check and I doubt I need to. The narrator is Vince Wade who was a very credible reporter on a local station for years and I would stand behind his findings.


http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo

I have seen this many times.. Not a new thing for me.. GM has closed many plants in Canada and move them to China right after Canada gave them a bailout as well..

 

[Francis]

Here's a good link to read on why Bailouts should matter.. Points out how GM and Chrysler ( the two that took Bailouts ) are now making billions..

http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-matters-auto-bailout-122429090.html

 

[Francis]

I have seen this many times.. Not a new thing for me.. GM has closed many plants in Canada and move them to China right after Canada gave them a bailout as well..

Like I said..

General Motors is going ahead with plans to close its consolidated plant in Oshawa, Ont., in what its union calls a "disgusting" move it says will eliminate 2,000 jobs directly and many thousands more indirectly.


"Obviously it's devastating news," Chris Buckley, president of Canadian Auto Workers Local 222 said in an interview after the union received confirmation notice Friday of the pending closure.


"Over 2,000 GM workers are finding out today that they with lose their job as of June 2013.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GM has been scaling back its overall operations in Canada as part of a North American restructuring begun two years ago under bankruptcy court protection. That streamlining led to the loss of tens of thousands of jobs at the company's Canadian and U.S. operations and the shutdown of several plants.


In Canada, GM has already closed a truck plant in Oshawa and a transmission factory in Windsor, Ont.


GM Canada currently employs more than 10,000 people across the country. In its heyday, the automaker had more than twice that total and major operations in Windsor, Oshawa and St. Catharines, Ont.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/06/01/gm-plant-closure_n_1562417.html

 

[Accountable]

Here's a good link to read on why Bailouts should matter.. Points out how GM and Chrysler ( the two that took Bailouts ) are now making billions..

http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-matters-auto-bailout-122429090.html

Why they matter?? Who has said they don't matter?

 

[Alien Allen]

I favored the bailout

Not so much now after viewing that though

Same as with the bank bailouts.. Nothing was done to correct a systemic problem

And worse in the auto bailout is how the bankruptcy laws were shit on

 

[Francis]

Exactly.. No one has addressed the issue and the same problems can occur in the auto industry again.

Banking here is a bit different, they have regulations.. Although our right wing Government seems intent on destroying the protection the centrist government had in place.