Auto bailout

[SgtSpike]

The last laugh will not be yours. Next up will be GM who will have the govt as a major stockholder. That should tickle your loins.

And if there had been a bankruptcy back when you wanted it that would have been an uncontrolled disaster.

Hope you do not know anybody in the supply business to the auto companies because they are going to end up getting royally fucked. The will be lucky to see pennies on the dollar.

Also how the hell can we end up with anything but a mess when the UAW has a share of GM. How the hell can Ford get a square deal when it comes to contract time when they are negotiating against a union that has part ownership in a competitor.

This all is a friggin mess and the bastards that brought this to us ... the god damn banks are getting away unscathed while the nuts and bolts of the engine that drives our economy take it up the ass.

It won't be the end of the world for these companies to go bankrupt. It'll mean all the crap that they've been carrying for so long (such as the unions) will be shaved, and they can actually be competitive with foreign companies.

 

[Minor Axis]

I don't want to see millions (billions) squanders on U.S. car companies if they can't cut the mustard. Just curious if anyone is pissed at how huge piles of money was blindly thrown at Banks in Dec08? I am. Some of those bastards helped take the country down and are still in the game...

 

[SgtSpike]

I don't want to see millions (billions) squanders on U.S. car companies if they can't cut the mustard. Just curious if anyone is pissed at how huge piles of money was blindly thrown at Banks in Dec08? I am. Some of those bastards helped take the country down and are still in the game...

With you 100% there. No one should have had bailout money IMO. If it's a corporation, and it's failing, there's a reason for that. Stupidity and greed. Let it fail, so that someone not so stupid and not so greedy can take their place.

 

[Alien Allen]

You guys just don't get it.

But you soon will.

Having the govt be a majority shareholder of GM and Chrysler is not gonna be a good idea.

How the fuck is Ford who has survived this gonna compete against the govt and unions who have 89% ownership of those companies?

The liberals might like that idea but Sarge you need to re think things

 

[dustsped]

It'll be interesting if Chrysler will make it with the 60 days they are going into this bankruptcy; not sure, but I'm thinking it doesn't look good for them.

 

[SgtSpike]

You guys just don't get it.

But you soon will.

Having the govt be a majority shareholder of GM and Chrysler is not gonna be a good idea.

How the fuck is Ford who has survived this gonna compete against the govt and unions who have 89% ownership of those companies?

The liberals might like that idea but Sarge you need to re think things

I don't get it. You seem to agree with what I said, and then say I need to rethink things...?

 

[Alien Allen]

I don't get it. You seem to agree with what I said, and then say I need to rethink things...?

You want them to go bankrupt

That ends up with the govt and the union having control of a company which Ford will have to compete against.

You are dreaming if you think this is going to rid the unions of power. They will end up with more power.

Do you really agree with govt ownership of business? In collusion with the unions?

The bondholders got royally screwed on this one.

And the bond holders are a conglomerate of things. Companies like Oppenheimer along with other funds.

 

[Minor Axis]

You are dreaming if you think this is going to rid the unions of power. They will end up with more power.

The last thing any red blooded conservative wants to see are employees with any power in the work place.

Obama Vows Swift Overhaul As Chrysler Enters Bankruptcy. It will be interesting to see if anyone will now buy a Chrysler. I really like the "Understand More" on the lower left of this linked page.

 

[Alien Allen]

The last thing any red blooded conservative wants to see are employees with any power in the work place.

Obama Vows Swift Overhaul As Chrysler Enters Bankruptcy. It will be interesting to see if anyone will now buy a Chrysler. I really like the "Understand More" on the lower left of this linked page.

You took that the wrong way.

The issue is contract negotiations with the unions in the future. At Chrysler the union could agree to different terms than with Ford. It would be in their interest to do so to make Chrysler more competitive.


And as to your link I did not bother reading it because it is bull shit. Unless Obama pulls a power trip on the court which if he does would make some of what Bush did pale in comparison. The bond holders are going to fight this. They got fucked over big time. They are a first secured party and should legally have more coming to them than the union. This could take 6 months to 3 years to settle this in court.

 

[SgtSpike]

You want them to go bankrupt

That ends up with the govt and the union having control of a company which Ford will have to compete against.

You are dreaming if you think this is going to rid the unions of power. They will end up with more power.

Do you really agree with govt ownership of business? In collusion with the unions?

The bondholders got royally screwed on this one.

And the bond holders are a conglomerate of things. Companies like Oppenheimer along with other funds.

How would bankruptcy end up with the government in control? I'm talking chapter 11 here, reorganization of the companies, clearing out the unions and other crap that is causing these companies to not be competitive with other automakers, etc. That doesn't end with the government in control, last I checked.

The last thing any red blooded conservative wants to see are employees with any power in the work place.

Obama Vows Swift Overhaul As Chrysler Enters Bankruptcy. It will be interesting to see if anyone will now buy a Chrysler. I really like the "Understand More" on the lower left of this linked page.

The people who own the company are the people who should have the power over what to do with it. I don't see how employees deserve any power in the place they work, unless they own it. They did not pay money for a share in the company - why should they have a say in what the company does?

It'd be like people renting a house from you, and them having the power to tell you that they only want to pay $600/mo for it instead of the $1,200/mo you originally required, and then the government backing them up on it! Absurdity!

 

[Alien Allen]

How would bankruptcy end up with the government in control? I'm talking chapter 11 here, reorganization of the companies, clearing out the unions and other crap that is causing these companies to not be competitive with other automakers, etc. That doesn't end with the government in control, last I checked.


The people who own the company are the people who should have the power over what to do with it. I don't see how employees deserve any power in the place they work, unless they own it. They did not pay money for a share in the company - why should they have a say in what the company does?

It'd be like people renting a house from you, and them having the power to tell you that they only want to pay $600/mo for it instead of the $1,200/mo you originally required, and then the government backing them up on it! Absurdity!

Sarge maybe it is not spelling out in writing the same as it has here on the local radio. Fiat will have a limited ownership that can be increased if they sell Chrysler products out of the US. The unions I believe gave up half of the VEBA in exchange for a percentage of ownership in Chrysler. And the US govt forgave loans in exchange for a percentage of ownership in Chrysler. The union and US govt have the largest percentage of ownership when combined.

The union will not be gutted. They are still going to be there. This all was unnecessary but was gonna happen once Obama made an absurd deadline. This also would not have occured had the banks not collapsed. There already had been concessions made by the unions that were going to make significant impact in 2010

You know if fucking amazes me how you and others trash the auto industry and miss the significance of this and the impact on people this will have.

Do you not think Japan would think it a national disgrace to let Honda go bankrupt?

Do you not think Germany would think it a national disgrace to let Mercedes go bankrupt?

 

[Minor Axis]

The people who own the company are the people who should have the power over what to do with it. I don't see how employees deserve any power in the place they work, unless they own it. They did not pay money for a share in the company - why should they have a say in what the company does?

Typical conservative view. That's because apparently you don't view employees as part of the team, just little cogs to be used by the owners to enrich themselves. You'd probably be jumping up and down clapping if we could only go back to the 1800's when there were no labor laws.

And no, unions do not/should not give employees the power to run the company, ideally they give employees some control over quality of life issues. I'm in a union and we have no say in how the company wants to run their corporate wheeling and dealings, other than the quality of life issues we've managed to get placed into our contract. Do I want to go to work everyday and hang out with no pay 50% of the time? NO. In the airline business this is not a far fetched scenario.

 

[Minor Axis]

You took that the wrong way.

Sorry.

The issue is contract negotiations with the unions in the future. At Chrysler the union could agree to different terms than with Ford. It would be in their interest to do so to make Chrysler more competitive.

I agree with this perception. As far as what you read, I admit I rarely bother to read any perspective piece from Fox, as they are just too far out in Right Field for my tastes....

 

[Alien Allen]

Sorry.



I agree with this perception. As far as what you read, I admit I rarely bother to read any perspective piece from Fox, as they are just too far out in Right Field for my tastes....

On this topic I get most of my info from the local papers and WJR radio on the way to work in the morning. It seems like at least once a week Ron Gettlefinger or a GM big wig are on the radio talking on the morning drive show along with the editorial or auto beat writers from the Detroit Free Press and Detroit News. One paper is conservative and the other liberal so one gets a decent flavor of things.

Being in the Detroit area we get a lot of info that many others do not get or is glossed over. Todays paper had probably 6 pages dealing with Chrysler.

I admit I have a bias. But I think it is tempered by the reality of what this mess has brung the region I live in. Already MI had been in a 3 year recession. It pisses me off that over 30 years ago the region knew we had to get off reliance on the auto industry but there are not only the factories in MI but a lot of parts suppliers.

 

[SgtSpike]

Sarge maybe it is not spelling out in writing the same as it has here on the local radio. Fiat will have a limited ownership that can be increased if they sell Chrysler products out of the US. The unions I believe gave up half of the VEBA in exchange for a percentage of ownership in Chrysler. And the US govt forgave loans in exchange for a percentage of ownership in Chrysler. The union and US govt have the largest percentage of ownership when combined.

The union will not be gutted. They are still going to be there. This all was unnecessary but was gonna happen once Obama made an absurd deadline. This also would not have occured had the banks not collapsed. There already had been concessions made by the unions that were going to make significant impact in 2010

You know if fucking amazes me how you and others trash the auto industry and miss the significance of this and the impact on people this will have.

Do you not think Japan would think it a national disgrace to let Honda go bankrupt?

Do you not think Germany would think it a national disgrace to let Mercedes go bankrupt?

I don't see the automakers as being a part of the USA. Well, being members of the USA, sure, but not a part of who we are. I have no idea if Japan would think it a national disgrace to let Honda go bankrupt, or Germany with Mercedes. To be honest, I don't care. To me, a nation's automakers do not make up the nation's culture or importance.

Regarding the impact on people - yes, it will have an impact if the companies go bankrupt. Big deal. Crap happens. Companies go bankrupt all the time. This is on a larger scale, sure, but when a company is mismanaged like these have been, that's the only way out. You can't keep throwing money at a failing company just because some people will lose their jobs because of it. The economy doesn't work that way. You have to let failing companies fail, and good companies live on.

But you know what will have an even greater impact in the long run? Letting these companies continue to run in the same debt-piling way. We'll keep throwing more cash at them and see nothing out of it, and all the union workers will have a hayday because they get to keep their precious, absurdly high-paying jobs. Do you know what would happen to the US if every company had union workers, and were all treated in the same way as the automakers during a downturn? The US government would go bankrupt REAL quick. And then no one would have jobs, or investments. Would that make you happy?

And even worse is if we let the government start controlling yet another should-be private sector industry here in the US. The fact that these privately owned corporations are getting bailout money from the US government is bad enough, but giving the government power in what they, a publicly owned company, have to do with their operations is a giant step towards all-out communism.

Typical conservative view. That's because apparently you don't view employees as part of the team, just little cogs to be used by the owners to enrich themselves. You'd probably be jumping up and down clapping if we could only go back to the 1800's when there were no labor laws.

And no, unions do not/should not give employees the power to run the company, ideally they give employees some control over quality of life issues. I'm in a union and we have no say in how the company wants to run their corporate wheeling and dealings, other than the quality of life issues we've managed to get placed into our contract. Do I want to go to work everyday and hang out with no pay 50% of the time? NO. In the airline business this is not a far fetched scenario.

I believe in the fair market setting the wages and benefits for jobs. If workers do not think they are being treated fairly, either through pay or benefits or anything else, they will stop working there. Either the company will have to offer higher-paying positions or better benefits, or they will be constantly dealing with a high turnover rate, low quality employees, and low-quality work.

Do you know what would happen if everyone were paid as much as the autoworkers, with the same benefits?

Simple. A fast-food cheeseburger would cost $20 in the matter of a couple months.

 

[Alien Allen]

Sarge admit it. You are so anti union you can not think straight

I have been enjoying some time off for a change this weekend and had a couple of beers watching hockey tonite

I will respond to your deluded nonsense tomorrow

 

[Tim]

I don't see the automakers as being a part of the USA. Well, being members of the USA, sure, but not a part of who we are. I have no idea if Japan would think it a national disgrace to let Honda go bankrupt, or Germany with Mercedes. To be honest, I don't care. To me, a nation's automakers do not make up the nation's culture or importance.

Regarding the impact on people - yes, it will have an impact if the companies go bankrupt. Big deal. Crap happens. Companies go bankrupt all the time. This is on a larger scale, sure, but when a company is mismanaged like these have been, that's the only way out. You can't keep throwing money at a failing company just because some people will lose their jobs because of it. The economy doesn't work that way. You have to let failing companies fail, and good companies live on.

But you know what will have an even greater impact in the long run? Letting these companies continue to run in the same debt-piling way. We'll keep throwing more cash at them and see nothing out of it, and all the union workers will have a hayday because they get to keep their precious, absurdly high-paying jobs. Do you know what would happen to the US if every company had union workers, and were all treated in the same way as the automakers during a downturn? The US government would go bankrupt REAL quick. And then no one would have jobs, or investments. Would that make you happy?

And even worse is if we let the government start controlling yet another should-be private sector industry here in the US. The fact that these privately owned corporations are getting bailout money from the US government is bad enough, but giving the government power in what they, a publicly owned company, have to do with their operations is a giant step towards all-out communism.


I believe in the fair market setting the wages and benefits for jobs. If workers do not think they are being treated fairly, either through pay or benefits or anything else, they will stop working there. Either the company will have to offer higher-paying positions or better benefits, or they will be constantly dealing with a high turnover rate, low quality employees, and low-quality work.

Do you know what would happen if everyone were paid as much as the autoworkers, with the same benefits?

Simple. A fast-food cheeseburger would cost $20 in the matter of a couple months.

So what's more important to you? Free market or our democracy?

From your views I wouldn't be surprised if you would forgo democracy for that almighty buck.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

So what's more important to you? Free market or our democracy?

From your views I wouldn't be surprised if you would forgo democracy for that almighty buck.

To me free market and democracy go hand in hand:nod:

 

[Alien Allen]

I don't see the automakers as being a part of the USA. Well, being members of the USA, sure, but not a part of who we are. I have no idea if Japan would think it a national disgrace to let Honda go bankrupt, or Germany with Mercedes. To be honest, I don't care. To me, a nation's automakers do not make up the nation's culture or importance.

Regarding the impact on people - yes, it will have an impact if the companies go bankrupt. Big deal. Crap happens. Companies go bankrupt all the time. This is on a larger scale, sure, but when a company is mismanaged like these have been, that's the only way out. You can't keep throwing money at a failing company just because some people will lose their jobs because of it. The economy doesn't work that way. You have to let failing companies fail, and good companies live on.

But you know what will have an even greater impact in the long run? Letting these companies continue to run in the same debt-piling way. We'll keep throwing more cash at them and see nothing out of it, and all the union workers will have a hayday because they get to keep their precious, absurdly high-paying jobs. Do you know what would happen to the US if every company had union workers, and were all treated in the same way as the automakers during a downturn? The US government would go bankrupt REAL quick. And then no one would have jobs, or investments. Would that make you happy?

And even worse is if we let the government start controlling yet another should-be private sector industry here in the US. The fact that these privately owned corporations are getting bailout money from the US government is bad enough, but giving the government power in what they, a publicly owned company, have to do with their operations is a giant step towards all-out communism.

The above has so many flaws I do not know where to begin. But I will try.

I don't see the automakers as being a part of the USA. Well, being members of the USA, sure, but not a part of who we are. I have no idea if Japan would think it a national disgrace to let Honda go bankrupt, or Germany with Mercedes. To be honest, I don't care. To me, a nation's automakers do not make up the nation's culture or importance.

How old are you? I can not believe you could make such an ignorant comment. The auto industry what born here. It saved our fucking asses in WWII when factories were retooled. This is mind boggling how you dismiss the history.

Regarding the impact on people - yes, it will have an impact if the companies go bankrupt. Big deal. Crap happens. Companies go bankrupt all the time. This is on a larger scale, sure, but when a company is mismanaged like these have been, that's the only way out. You can't keep throwing money at a failing company just because some people will lose their jobs because of it. The economy doesn't work that way. You have to let failing companies fail, and good companies live on.

You are so hell bent on the idea of destroying the unions it has become comical. Before making an uneducated comment such as this you might bone up on the facts. In case you missed it the unions made concessions and with other restructuring the cars will cost $5k less to build next year. Sure the unions and the companies got greedy. But that was the past. Those problems by necessity are being addressed. You act like it is still the status quo.

But you know what will have an even greater impact in the long run? Letting these companies continue to run in the same debt-piling way. We'll keep throwing more cash at them and see nothing out of it, and all the union workers will have a hayday because they get to keep their precious, absurdly high-paying jobs. Do you know what would happen to the US if every company had union workers, and were all treated in the same way as the automakers during a downturn? The US government would go bankrupt REAL quick. And then no one would have jobs, or investments. Would that make you happy?

You keep parroting the same stuff Sarge. Again there have been concessions. Also you never seem to address the other major factor of the banks in this mess. The unions and auto companies made concessions that were to kick in next year and that was agreed to long before the bank collapse last fall.

And even worse is if we let the government start controlling yet another should-be private sector industry here in the US. The fact that these privately owned corporations are getting bailout money from the US government is bad enough, but giving the government power in what they, a publicly owned company, have to do with their operations is a giant step towards all-out communism.

Are you living in a cave Sarge. Wake up the govt is taking over the auto companies because Obama not satisfied with giving loans. Unless Obama pulls a surprise and gives General Motors a break it will soon have the more apt title of Government Motors.

 

[Alien Allen]

They're Shutting Detroit Down
Featuring Mickey Rourke and Kris Kristofferson

They're Shutting Detroit Down (Video)