Auto bailout

[Fox Mulder]

what I fucking hate is this salary cap bullshit.

You have any idea what the unions would do if the government said "Okay fellas, you can only make X amount per hour..period, no ifs ands or buts"

Man...Minor would de-forest the countryside with the kleenex he would need:24:

Seriously--most of us can agree that people should not be making $50 an hour to put a fucking part on a conveyor belt, but let the government try to cap the wages for "low skilled union jobs" and the fucking union members would come unglued and probably organize an armed revolt. Yet they have no problem with the government allowing them to extort (almost at gunpoint) exhiorbitant wages and benefits from their employers!

 

[Fox Mulder]

Like I said I do not have any solutions

Then shut the fuck up!!!!

 

[siasl]

Like I said I do not have any solutions

hey...it's market forces at work....the bread that capitalism's sandwhich is built on.....
and anyway you slice that bread, the automakers are failing because they are no longer successfully competitive.....labor and management can't use that as collateral to get a loan to keep 'em in business...and so far, that's all they got to show for themselves.....

MAYBE....if they were both willing to rethink their relationship and present something different than "oh please....look at how important we are" .....somebody would listen.

 

[Tim]

I would like to know one thing... How much cost is in a car in union wages vs management wages. I can't find that information anywhere.

Do you realize that there are 14 levels of management at GM? What does that add to the cars cost on average?

 

[Tim]

How in the world do you conclude that other countries have an advantage with state run healthcare? :confused You honestly believe there is no cost to those companies associated with healthcare? Someone has to pay those costs--either it gets paid directly in the form of health insurance benefits, or its paid by taxes--but it certainly is a cost they have. The difference right now is choice. Many business can chose all different levels of care of no health care at all. To me that gives a competetive edge over a foreign company that is forced to provide healthcare through higher employment or labor taxes. One way or another its a cost. That's what so many people have no fucking clue about--that this "free" healthcare they all talk about is NOT FREE by any means.

As an example--Canada has on average taxes 10% higher than Americans do--yet they have very little in the way of costs of defense (military)--the US spends about 20% of its tax revenue on defense. There is a very large cost to the citizens of Canada--they just don't realize it because its all hidden in the form of onerous taxes. Go out to dinner in a Canadian Province and your actual bill by the time the tax and tip is included is close to double what the stated price of the meal is.

They have a choice? You're kidding, right? Name one large corporation that doesn't provide health care to it's workers.
And your right, health care is never free. We all pay health care whether it's through taxes, added costs to the products we buy, premiums or just paying more for the health care we get. We will never get out from under the costs of health care. So why not do it more efficiently? We does health care need to be a for profit industry? If everyone had access to basic health care and wellness care, the costs would be significantly lower than they are right now. What you fail to realize is that you already pay for the health care of the uninsured, only you are doing it very inefficiently. You are paying for them to get care at the most expensive point in time. This is exactly why some of the hospitals in my area (Philadelphia) are starting to give free basic health care and wellness check ups to the uninsured. They found that it saves them millions in lost revenue since they WILL eventually show up to get treated when it's at it's most expensive. Not to long ago they had an article about this and used an older woman as an example. She was diabetic and had no insurance, so she didn't get the care she needed. Because of this she was admitted to the hospital about every 3 months when things got real bad. The hospital was losing hundreds of thousands on this one patient alone. So they started giving her free preventative treatment to keep her out of the emergency room.
This is what I mean by we all pay one way or another. But preventing people from getting basic health care is costing us billions each year in wasted money.

 

[Fox Mulder]

They have a choice? You're kidding, right? Name one large corporation that doesn't provide health care to it's workers.
And your right, health care is never free. We all pay health care whether it's through taxes, added costs to the products we buy, premiums or just paying more for the health care we get. We will never get out from under the costs of health care. So why not do it more efficiently? We does health care need to be a for profit industry? If everyone had access to basic health care and wellness care, the costs would be significantly lower than they are right now.

And you think that government run healthcare will be more efficient? Have you been to a federal agency lately?

Why do you think that the costs would be significantly lower if everyone had access to basic health and wellness care?

What you fail to realize is that you already pay for the health care of the uninsured, only you are doing it very inefficiently. You are paying for them to get care at the most expensive point in time. This is exactly why some of the hospitals in my area (Philadelphia) are starting to give free basic health care and wellness check ups to the uninsured. They found that it saves them millions in lost revenue since they WILL eventually show up to get treated when it's at it's most expensive. Not to long ago they had an article about this and used an older woman as an example. She was diabetic and had no insurance, so she didn't get the care she needed. Because of this she was admitted to the hospital about every 3 months when things got real bad. The hospital was losing hundreds of thousands on this one patient alone. So they started giving her free preventative treatment to keep her out of the emergency room.
This is what I mean by we all pay one way or another. But preventing people from getting basic health care is costing us billions each year in wasted money.

Well there are certainly some cases where that's true, but I don't know where you are coming up with your statistics. I am all in favor of doing things more efficiently, but one thing is for damn sure and that is that healthcare run by the federal government is NOT going to be more efficient. I worked in the healthcare industry back in New Jersey when costs were not controlled (it was essentially the same as if government ran it). They came with DRGs and standardized reimbursement which became a model for the rest of the country. HMOs do this.

Seriously--what fucking incentive will there be to control costs if the government runs healthcare? Do you really believe all these new government employees running our healthcare system are going to do it more efficiently just for their government checks and pensions? That will be the most inefficient system ever--go to Canada and see how efficient there system is. They have people coming here paying cash for elective procedures because they can't get them for months up there. Basic care--yes--they can provide that--that's all they can provide.

 

[siasl]

Seriously--what fucking incentive will there be to control costs if the government runs healthcare?

tough to argue with this, imo

Do you realize that there are 14 levels of management at GM? What does that add to the cars cost on average?

and this from a company whose motivation is to turn a profit.....a least a part of it's problem is that its become bloated at the management level....something the gub'ment does almost automatically with it's layers of oversight and accountability, which for some insane reason it views as being synomous with "efficency"

the most efficent healthcare model, imo, is kaiser....where everybody is just a bar code to the system -a comprehensive ream of data.....but everyone i KNOW who uses kaiser says the care itself is personal, from people who are interested in seeing them get better asap.

 

[lumpenstein]

Long ago the big three stopped making cars and started selling the American Dream: big, bloated macho-testosterone driven SUVs and huge customized pick-ups that fed people's ego and served no other purpose than to allow people to show off their apparent wealth. Back during the original energy crisis of the seventies American car makers downsized form muscle cars to slightly more economic mid-sized cars while the Japanese makers quietly gave people what they needed, not what they wanted: small cars that were reliable and cheap to run.

Ford, GM and Chrysler got what they deserve. They played the free enterprise game and now they are paying the price.

No bailout.

 

[SgtSpike]

I would like to know one thing... How much cost is in a car in union wages vs management wages. I can't find that information anywhere.

Do you realize that there are 14 levels of management at GM? What does that add to the cars cost on average?

Yeah, I'd love to see a company of their size NOT operate with that level of management. You NEED that sort of management structure to keep everything in line for a multinational corporation like GM.

 

[lumpenstein]

I just heard on the news that in Canada the auto makers are "demanding" that the Canadian government bail them out with $Billions

Fuck them! :mad

 

[Tim]

Yeah, I'd love to see a company of their size NOT operate with that level of management. You NEED that sort of management structure to keep everything in line for a multinational corporation like GM.

I understand the need for management when it comes to corporations this big. It's just that we always here about how much the union workers are getting paid and how it's killing the industry and we never hear how much management is making.

I'm a project manager for a millwork company with union cabinet makers in the shop. They out number us 3 to 1 (union workers to management) and if we had major economic problems, it would benefit all of us if we took a pay cut across the board. What good would it do if I stood here and railed about how much the guys are getting paid in the shop when I know for a fact that we are a larger cost burden on the company salary wise. I have no job if we don't have labor to make the products and they would be out of a job if we didn't get the work.

 

[Minor Axis]

Heard last night on CNN- Heritage Foundation Asshole* (paraphrased): "We can't afford the average auto worker to make $70 per hour when the average worker makes $25 per hour."

Heard today on the radio (paraphrased): "Auto workers have taken substantial concessions, they have agreed to a two tier wage system for new workers that reflect today's realities. Auto workers start at about $14 per hour and the average pay is in the mid $20s."

*confirmed asshole generator...

So who's the frick'n liars?

 

[Alien Allen]

Heard last night on CNN- Heritage Foundation Asshole* (paraphrased): "We can't afford the average auto worker to make $70 per hour when the average worker makes $25 per hour."

Heard today on the radio (paraphrased): "Auto workers have taken substantial concessions, they have agreed to a two tier wage system for new workers that reflect today's realities. Auto workers start at about $14 per hour and the average pay is in the mid $20s."

*confirmed asshole generator...

So who's the frick'n liars?

the $70 includes the benefits. the concessions in the 2010 contract will bring it down at that time. If the UAW really wants to protect their workers they would tell them the contract should take effect immediately.

no argument with me about the ludicrous wages management makes. GM head makes $20 Million. No friggin way he deserves that. and there are a bunch more making that. Mulder thinks it is ok but not me. the whole thing is totally screwed up from top to bottom.

 

[Minor Axis]

I understand the need for management when it comes to corporations this big. It's just that we always here about how much the union workers are getting paid and how it's killing the industry and we never hear how much management is making.

I'm a project manager for a millwork company with union cabinet makers in the shop. They out number us 3 to 1 (union workers to management) and if we had major economic problems, it would benefit all of us if we took a pay cut across the board. What good would it do if I stood here and railed about how much the guys are getting paid in the shop when I know for a fact that we are a larger cost burden on the company salary wise. I have no job if we don't have labor to make the products and they would be out of a job if we didn't get the work.

In my bankruptcy experience I have no problem with being told we need to tighten our belts and we did. What I can't abide is when top management uses the bankruptcy to kick the shit out of their employees while patting themselves on the back and awarding bonuses to themselves for a job well done (kicking the shit out of their employees). If we are a team, we are a team. If we do good, everyone should be rewarded and vice a versa.

The company I'm talking about entered bankruptcy for one of two reasons 1)mismanagement = fucked up management who don't deserve bonuses or 2) strategic bankruptcy= opportunity to kick the shit out of your employees which is immoral. Most employees feel like the reason was #2...

 

[Alien Allen]

In my bankruptcy experience I have no problem with being told we need to tighten our belts and we did. What I can't abide is when top management uses the bankruptcy to kick the shit out of their employees while patting themselves on the back and awarding bonuses to themselves for a job well done (kicking the shit out of their employees). If we are a team, we are a team. If we do good, everyone should be rewarded and vice a versa.

The company I'm talking about entered bankruptcy for one of two reasons 1)mismanagement = fucked up management who don't deserve bonuses or 2) strategic bankruptcy= opportunity to kick the shit out of your employees which is immoral. Most employees feel like the reason was #2...

so you think the union wages and absurd benefit package did not contribute any??

management needs to step up for sure. the union needs to move up the contract to take place immediately. if it is a team then both share. both are equally at fault in my opinion. just in different ways

 

[Minor Axis]

the $70 includes the benefits. the concessions in the 2010 contract will bring it down at that time. If the UAW really wants to protect their workers they would tell them the contract should take effect immediately.

no argument with me about the ludicrous wages management makes. GM head makes $20 Million. No friggin way he deserves that. and there are a bunch more making that. Mulder thinks it is ok but not me. the whole thing is totally screwed up from top to bottom.

I really doubt if you're working at $24 per hour, you've got $46 per hour benefits coming but I don't know for sure. Pensions are gone. The employer is paying health insurance and a 401k contribution of somewhere in the area of 5-10% (uncomfirmed).

One of the goals of society, in a successful country should be universal health care. Right now we are haves and have-nots. Most low income people can't afford their companies health care. It is something we should strive for. The strength of having universal health care supposedly is that you'd have huge pools of people which should knock the cost of health insurance down. I want to see it done right, but philosophically that's where I stand.

 

[Minor Axis]

so you think the union wages and absurd benefit package did not contribute any??

management needs to step up for sure. the union needs to move up the contract to take place immediately. if it is a team then both share. both are equally at fault in my opinion. just in different ways

I don't want to talk to specifically. Sure wages and benefits take a hit on the bottom line, but absurd- I don't think so. The companies owners since taking over the company (my company which shall remain un-named) have sucked HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars of assets out plus management's wages and bonuses make them a larger culprit then the workers. They milked a cash cow until there was nothing left. This company went into bankruptcy specifically because of owner and management policies. That's a fact. Sorry I can't share the specific facts with you.

Workers are always the easy target, but that does not mean they are the right target or are mostly responsible for a companies problems. If GM had spent the last 40 years working on fuel efficiency, do you think they'd be were they are today?

 

[Hoffa]

Bottom line here folks:

Free trade=free to fail, it's survival of the fitest, so why is it the fault of the taxpayer if a company folds?

Its not all about fault , its about results . If our economy is further damaged , millions without work , fault becomes just a word.
Whats important now is saving the industry , the workers , and the taxpayers who would back the loans .
I can't speak for the UAW , but talk from other officials make it clear that the Union/workers will sacrifice to save the industry.
No Union expects a company to go hat in hand to GOVT for survival and not hold hat in hand too !. Not how it works.
Now , lets see how much management is willing to sacrifice .
I would expect a great deal considering they take a great deal .
Its like this , if a worker would be expected to lose 30% of their pay , in order to keep company competitive , I would think management would make the same sacrifice. If not , how in hell could taking a cut be sold to rank & file ?.
This whole deal should be made with real concessions made by management { all the way to the top } as well as workers.
It is more complicated than that , but that is a start. This plan has to be sold to the Govt , and the taxpayer without any bullshit , its not supposed to be a gift. >f

 

[Hoffa]

I have to comment on this because its Minor's pet peave (and he has it from union propoganda). However, in many cases (hell most cases) buying a "cheap" CEO will cost the company far more in the long run.

So Mulder , is Fords CEO doing 40 times a better a job than Toyota's CEO ?. Toyota's CEO only made about a million . Hell Ford paid more than Toyota paid its top 40-50 execs .
What you seem to be asking is workers take the hit while management rakes it all in , is some cases double their salary in a year { a nearly $4 million raise in GM's CEO's case to 9.3 million } .
The top 21 in Honda make only slightly more .
We must have damn good CEO's !!! :usa:
Seriously Mulder , you don't see a problem with these guys making tens of millions , being paid millions in bonus , and asking the taxpayer for help , begging for the future of their companies ?.

I am a strong believer in company and Union being partners , sharing the good times as well as bad .
Thats how its supposed to work , and in this case essential. >f
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Union questions auto execs' pay packages



During talks with GM, the UAW pointed out that while the automaker has complained that hourly wages and benefits are dragging it down, it has continued awarding bonuses to its top executives.
GM CEO Rick Wagoner earned $9.3 million in salary and bonus in 2006, nearly double what he earned in 2005.



Ford's new CEO, Alan Mulally, got $27.8 million in salary and bonus in his first few months on the job, including an $18.5 million signing bonus.

Toyota's top 37 executives earned a combined $21.6 million in salary and bonuses, according to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. U.K. firm Manifest Information Services, which analyzes proxy information, estimates Toyota's top executive, Hiroshi Okuda, earned $903,000 in 2006.
At Honda, the top 21 earned $11.1 million, combined, in salary and bonuses, SEC filings show.
"There is this huge gap between the average worker and the CEO, and the gap is greatest in the U.S.," Kim says. "That kind of thing might work where individual work counts the most, but in the manufacturing sector, it's all about teamwork."



Union questions auto execs' pay packages - USATODAY.com

 

[Destroyer Dave]

I'm all for heling the auto industry, but I think the wallstreet bailout was bull shit! AIG was saved from finantial disaster and they went out one week later and gave the dam CO a $300,000 bonus, if they would have distributed the 700

billion dallor bailout to the people(you know, the ones thet need it) then every citizen in the country would have been given $9,500!!! now I dont know about you but, I know that I could have used $9,500 a lot more than some blue

blood millionair needs $300,000, this monitary bull shit has got to go!!!!!!! I'm sick of the wage slave system, I know that the dick head that got the $300,000 bonus hasnt ever worked a hard day in his life!!! But the people that put him

there by purchasing his servic get FUCKED!!!!!! well fuck them I know many good hard working people that have lost there houses, there jobs, and in esance there life due to thes greedy mother fuckers, cuz aparantly hundreds of

millions of dollars isnt enough! I could live very happily and comfortably with 1 million or even half a million! $9,500 would finish the remodle on my house, But fuck you, and fuck me, who the hell are we to say anything right!!!! I mean

after all were only the American working middle class, yeah the guys and girls that build this country, the true sreangth of the nation, we are only 95% of the population, so fuck us right why would or should we have any say in what

happens to our childrens futur? just remember why the polititions are were ther are! because we thought we could trust them! I would bet a $700,000,000,000 govt funded bailout plan (thats alot of zeros eh) that if our founding fathers were here today

that they would insight the next revolution!!! Maybe its time to sto insalting them and follow there foot steps! why is everyone so god damn afraid to try and reclaim there country, There was a time when I would have called myself a

patriot, but no Im sure they would just call me a "domestic terrorist"!! "He who would trade a little of his freedom for a little security deserves nither freedom nor security" Benjamin Franklyn

Who's side are you on, Dont start the revolution without me!!!!!