Anybody else hear this?

AllVenom said:
no of course not, it was proven that he didn't have them AT THAT TIME. Was he capable of producing them? Yep. Would he use them? Yep. We don't go beating up on China because they have WMDs because at least they are smart enough not to use them...Even Russia wasn't that dumb.
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We don't beat up China for various reasons, mainly because we're bed fellows with them in trade and outsourcing.
 
AllVenom said:
Really? Care to show some proof?
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Well, if you want a very resent example, read Alan Greenspan's new book where Bush himself came to him and basically asked him how profitable it would be to Invade Iraq under a false flag operation to gain it's natural resources. It's all in there.


Then there are all of Bush's oil freinds that he has to keep happy, and no bid contracts that they are grabbing up.
 
groundpounder said:
whoa whoa whoa. Let's get ourselves a little further away from the left edge and the right edge.you make a good point here, and I know what you mean. We allow him to take money that he's stealing anyway from someone other than us, so it's not "our dime" technically. I do get that. But I think there is a bigger point here, not speaking of the war itself (get to that in a sec) it's a dangerous precedent for the most powerful country in the world to "allow" if you will a certifiable mad man to fleece his own people, perform genocide, wantonly show naked agression to his neighbors etc, and then say, "OK - if you'll just pick up your ball and leave, we'll let you leave with $1,000,000,000 for your trouble."
Now, obviously juxtaposing that (if the newstory is true, mind you) against the trillions spent and lives lost, it's a small penance, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. $1,000,000,000 does NOT equal civil war, American lives lost, families destroyed, ill will, US imperialism and cavalier foreign policy, no bid contracts for Haliburton....
But you would be remiss if you said that it wasn't a dangerous precedent to set. It is. Kim Jong-il would be licking his lips saying, "Fire up the reactors, boys, we're going to be RICH!!!"



I'm not missing that point in the least. Not one iota. Here's my take on the Iraq war in a nutshell (and that's a hard thing to do, but I dont want to rant too much):
Saddam had to go. He was Hitler incarnate, and we see how that worked out for 6 million Jews, Poland, the world. Naked aggression against Kuwait, Iran in the 80's, the Kurds (imagine if Bushie said, "Well, we don't like all you okies, so we're gonna GAS YA! Hook 'em 'Horns!!"). Sooner or later became sooner rather than later.
NOW, if you ascribe to the notion that we were led into war by the Administration under false pretense (which I do), how do you reconcile the fact that Hussein was asking to leave with the money AND WMD information?? Isn't that tacit admission that they were there, or that at least the technology to create them was there, and he didn't want the world to know? Think about that. More later!
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Exactly & Agree'd 100%.
 
groundpounder said:
you make a good point here, and I know what you mean. We allow him to take money that he's stealing anyway from someone other than us, so it's not "our dime" technically. I do get that. But I think there is a bigger point here, not speaking of the war itself (get to that in a sec) it's a dangerous precedent for the most powerful country in the world to "allow" if you will a certifiable mad man to fleece his own people, perform genocide, wantonly show naked agression to his neighbors etc, and then say, "OK - if you'll just pick up your ball and leave, we'll let you leave with $1,000,000,000 for your trouble."
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Do you remember the dictator of Uganda via a military coup in 1971? His name was Idi Amin Dada. He terrorized Uganda and the neighboring countries from 1971 until he was exiled from his country to Saudi Arabia in 1979. In that short period he was responsible for as many as 500,000 deaths.

 Former Haitian dictator "Baby Doc" Duvalier left for France in 1986. Again, the country has been misruled, though somewhat less systematically brutalized, since his departure. And Duvalier has been almost forgotten.

Hissene Habre of Chad has lived in Senegal since 1990, Mengistu Haile Mariam, the former butcher of Ethiopia, fled to Zimbabwe (where he has survived an assassination attempt) in 1991. The aging Alfredo Stroessner of Paraguay fled to Brazil after a 1989 coup, and has lived there relatively quietly ever since.

How about a short list of brutal dictators that the US are friendly with....
Abacha, General Sani -------------------------Nigeria
Amin, Idi -------------------------------------Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo -------------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio ----------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal --------------------------Brunei
Botha, P.W. ----------------------------------South Africa
Branco, General Humberto ---------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul ---------------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio --------------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek -------------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo -----------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo ------------------------------El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ---------------------------------Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel ---------------------------Liberia
Duvalier, Francois ------------------------------Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude---------------------------Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ----------------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco ----------------------Spain
Hitler, Adolf -----------------------------------Germany
Hassan II--------------------------------------Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand -----------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez --------El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko -----------------------------Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel ------------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut -----------------------------------Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ------------------Iran
Papadopoulos, George --------------------------Greece
Park Chung Hee -------------------------------South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto ---------------------Chile
Pol Pot----------------------------------------Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni ------------------------Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios ---------------------Guatemala
Salassie, Halie ---------------------------------Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------------Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. --------------------------Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. -------------------------Nicaragua
Smith, Ian -------------------------------------Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo -----------------------------Paraguay
Suharto, General -------------------------------Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas ------------------------Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael --------------------Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed -------------------------Pakistan
Now, obviously juxtaposing that (if the newstory is true, mind you) against the trillions spent and lives lost, it's a small penance, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. $1,000,000,000 does NOT equal civil war, American lives lost, families destroyed, ill will, US imperialism and cavalier foreign policy, no bid contracts for Haliburton....
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Allowing any brutal dictator to go free is not something I would ever want to see... ever. But if I could trade the lives of every American killed or injured for his remaining years living in the lap of luxury out of power, I would. Forget the money.

But you would be remiss if you said that it wasn't a dangerous precedent to set. It is. Kim Jong-il would be licking his lips saying, "Fire up the reactors, boys, we're going to be RICH!!!"
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What makes you think for one second that Kim Jong-il would want to go into exile? Why would he? He may be on the Axis of evil list, but he is in no way in danger of losing his country. So why would we offer him the opportunity to go into exile? It doesn't make any sense.


I'm not missing that point in the least. Not one iota. Here's my take on the Iraq war in a nutshell (and that's a hard thing to do, but I dont want to rant too much):
Saddam had to go. He was Hitler incarnate, and we see how that worked out for 6 million Jews, Poland, the world. Naked aggression against Kuwait, Iran in the 80's, the Kurds (imagine if Bushie said, "Well, we don't like all you okies, so we're gonna GAS YA! Hook 'em 'Horns!!"). Sooner or later became sooner rather than later.
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So letting him leave on his own then helping Iraq set up a new government wasn't even considering? Is it the fact that the war machine was already set into motion and nothing was going to stop it?

NOW, if you ascribe to the notion that we were led into war by the Administration under false pretense (which I do), how do you reconcile the fact that Hussein was asking to leave with the money AND WMD information?? Isn't that tacit admission that they were there, or that at least the technology to create them was there, and he didn't want the world to know? Think about that. More later!
Click to expand...
Of course he had weapons of mass destruction, he used them on the kurds. He used them against Iran. He had a pretty good WMD program thus good information on making, handling and using them. But he was asking to take the info on them, not suitcases of nerve gas.
 
I guess what I am saying....

Before we sent 1 American into Iraq, it would have been nice to see if the removal of Saddam would have made the difference. His country wanted him gone in the worst way... they were begging for change, not death.
 
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