Anybody else hear this?

[All Else Failed]

lmao. Way to miss what I was saying, champ.

 

[dt3]

lmao. Way to miss what I was saying, champ.

You missed what I was saying, so let's call it even.

 

[Tim]

Ok, now that I have a few minutes, I'll try to respond accordingly to your reply.

Cut-and-paste google research is given away by the different font and the fact that it's in alphabetical order - probably came from some "We Hate Republicans!" or "Yellow dog Democrats FOR THE WIN" website that you're a member of and get a weekly e-mail from.

Of course it's cut and paste. There was quite a bit of reading that I had to do to bring me completely up to speed on US/dictator relationships. I knew of a handful already, but there were bound to be many more throughout history, so I wanted to bring complete and accurate info to the debate.
Now onto the second part of you above statement... Why did you feel the need to turn the conversation to Left vs Right? Moving debates towards personal and unfounded attacks are never productive as you know. If you must know, I work hard to make sure my information comes from sources that are either respectable or verifiable. I do take pride in being well informed and it would not benefit anyone if the information is tainted. I want to know the truth, whatever it is. Whether I want to hear it or not.

It's more effort than what most put into a point, so I have to hand it to you. But alas, your list is tainted because it includes several people that while we may have "been friendly with," ultimately those "friends" didn't work out. Happens that way sometimes, like divorce and such, and you look back and say "What was I thinking?" Doesn't make you a bad country or even one with bad judgement. Evil people are VERY charismatic.

I understand that some of the relations we've had with dictators didn't work out. We can use Saddam as a great example of this, but they were still "friends" of the US at one time. Friends as long as there was something we wanted from them. It still doesn't negate the fact that we will work with killers and dictators if it benefits the US. That's the whole point of my posting the dictators list.... It would benefit us as a country if Saddam was out of power.

The list reeks of propoganda, the likes of which is regurgitated at times like this when people with an agenda say, "Bush is evil because we gave Saddam WMD technology back in the late 70's! WE HAVE NO RIGHT!" Bullshit. Politics, and especially geopolitics, make strange bedfellows. Some of which came back to haunt you years later when you look back and say, "That didn't turn out so well...." I mean, since we're digging up old bones, who was in office in the late 70's? Carter! Does that make Clinton a terrible president since they're both Democrats? Or his foreign policy somehow tied to the Bay of Pigs because Kennedy was a Dem?? HELL NO! It's just so blantant to bring up things like this when arguing about the present. Partisan is what it is.

Wow! That's a real mouthful there. All to make the point that you feel it's partisan bullshit. Well before we head down that path, let's clear up a few things. I'm not Republican and I'm sure as hell am not Democrat. There is a very good reason that I have been registered as an Independent for 22 years. I have always called it as I see it, whether it's a Republican or Democrat that's fucking up.

yeah, you and everyone else including me, Tim. War sucks. People die. I HATE WAR! Problem is, "But if" and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee.

I know war sucks and I am far from being a pacifist. I have no problem supporting a just war, but can you honestly tell me this is a just war? Everything that we know today screams that this was destined to be a major cluster fuck. And I am certain that this WAS know be the administration long before we committed to this war. Not considering Saddam's possible exile just adds fuel to the fire.

WWII is the single deadliest conflict in the history of mankind. Estimated human loss is 72 million, 47 million of which was civilian. FDR, arguably one of the greatest Presidents in revisionist history, led us into WWII to get us out of the Great Depression, and 47 million civilians paid for it.

As tragic as WWII was, I wasn't around at the time to debate whether it was just or not. Actually I'm not familiar enough with the lead up to the war to make a truly informed opinion as to whether it was just or not.

Oh wait, But if I could trade the lives of every American killed or injured for one assassin's bullet in Berlin around, say, 1932, I would, and WWII would have never happened, right? But it doesn't work that way, does it? Tell me, Tim - how do you feel about World War II? Is the blood of 47 million civilians on the hand of Franklin Roosevelt, a good old fashioned blue blooded Democrat? I, for one, think not. Which is why bringing up some obscure list of madmen that "the US is friendly with" doesn't add to the argument that the war in Iraq is wrong.

You're right, it doesn't add to the argument of whether the Iraq war is right or wrong. But it DOES add to the fire that Bush is a major fuck up and he was going to invade Iraq no matter what the lead up looked like.

The point of the Kim Jon-il reference is you just can't let people like Saddam Hussein go unchecked. People like that, you give them an inch and they take take take until they're gassing their own people, creating an Aryan race, making plans to nuke their neighbors, thumbing their nose at the rest of the civilized world and wreaking havoc.

You're right, you can't just leave them unchecked. But once out of power, he could have been easily handled, quietly and without his military to back him. And do you think for one second that Saddam's exile would have been made public? Don't you think he would have just "disappeared" in a mysterious explosion or the like? the world would never have been the wiser.

From the jump, though, I thought W had a hard-on for Iraq and war was inevitable. Which sucked. I think Saddam had to go, but I think we were led into war under false pretense and went for the wrong reasons (the biggest of which is a three letter word that rhymes with foil). I think this Administration knew that Saddam didn't pose a WMD threat even to Iran or Israel, let alone New York City. And I think this administration knew there was no credible link between Iraq and al-Qaeda, which is like saying we need to lock down New Hampshire because of Timothy McVeigh.
But Saddam had to go.

I do agree with that. But there are a dozen other dictators that are just as bad as he is, they need to go to. But you don't see us invading any other country. So this is the one we talk about. And there are much better ways to dispose of a dictator than war.

And I think this $1,000,000,000 thing is a big lie to stir up more of what's already stirred up - anti-war sentiment. And it's working.

If you are so sure that it's a lie, then do your part and find the opposing facts. I have looked and found nothing to date to suggest it is some left wing conspiracy. Don't you think the Right talkers would be all over this if it were false? Well I haven't heard anything out of them so far.

And knowing this you think it would have been a good idea to let him walk

Absolutely, I would be 100% behind it.

 

[groundpounder]

I have some thoughts to share. Imagine that. But not enough time this second to share them. I'll drop back in soon.

 

[NightWarrior]

You guys have entirely too much time on your hands.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

You guys have entirely too much time on your hands.

LOL AllVenom.

Had a feeling Tim was going to come back with a bang.

Two things sure to spark a heated debate. Politics and religion.