Alcoholics Anonymous

[Minor Axis]

So you dont understand why i think talking about your feelings is gay, but one on one isnt. No matter how macho you are, when things bother you, you will confide in your friends, pastor, priest, sibling, parent etc... When you are sitting in a circle having a pitty party for yourself about how 'hopeless' you are, you have now officially entered the realm of being an attention whore.

I was in the US Navy for 9 years, never was in combat. I appreciate the physical and mental sacrifice of those on the tip of the sword. However, that being said...

What makes a group discussion less legitimate than one on one? You may prefer one on one, but a group interaction does not equate to the derogatory term you chosen to assign to it. Is it more manly to reveal an individual's inability to cope with a situation to another vs a group? I don't see it. It might take more courage to talk about these things to a group of people with common issues they are trying to overcome. "Pity Whores" can just as easily seek pity on a one to one basis.

Combat experience isn't life experience. That's not to detract from what you've been through in the army, but at the same time it isn't the same thing as actually dealing with life.

It may not be considered a "normal" life experience, but it is an experience that over shadows the rest of your life.

 

[retro]

It may not be considered a "normal" life experience, but it is an experience that over shadows the rest of your life.

You'll get no argument from me on that... my comment was only in response to this...

I find it hard to believe that someone with your experience in life has so few words to describe what you mean.

In that context, The Doc has very little "life experience"... combat doesn't equal life experience.

 

[Johnfromokc]

In that context, The Doc has very little "life experience"... combat doesn't equal life experience.

Seriously? You should reconsider that remark. Everyone of us that has served in the military knows better.

Combat is the ultimate life witnessing death experience. Doc is a combat medic. A year in combat is more occupational experience in one year than most emergency medical first responders get in 10 years. Plus, he has occupational duties stateside every day. I'd say that qualifies as far more life experience than the vast majority of 25 year olds today.

 

[retro]

All I have to go on there is what I've been told by people I know that served... they've told me that combat prepared them for some things, but not the rigors and dealings of everyday life. I'm merely saying that a 22 year old PFC that hasn't had any job outside of the military doesn't have near as much in the way of life experience as was being implied. Hell, I'm almost 29, have been married and divorced, owned two separate houses, owned a business, and moved across the country twice and I wouldn't consider myself to have a lot of life experience... though certainly more than The Doc.

 

[MjaneGibson]

Seriously? You should reconsider that remark. Everyone of us that has served in the military knows better.

Combat is the ultimate life witnessing death experience. Doc is a combat medic. A year in combat is more occupational experience in one year than most emergency medical first responders get in 10 years. Plus, he has occupational duties stateside every day. I'd say that qualifies as far more life experience than the vast majority of 25 year olds today.

I understand the response you gave, though, have you read the previous statements made by Doc, you may understand more where Retro is coming from. I am not going to sit here and claim that he has no life experience, though, like retro has stated, simply because he has seen war, and the terrible things that come with it, does not mean that he has a grasp on life as a whole. I'd more likely say, he has a better grasp on death, unfortunately, and what it means to die, rather than be an expert on life.

 

[Johnfromokc]

All I have to go on there is what I've been told by people I know that served... they've told me that combat prepared them for some things, but not the rigors and dealings of everyday life. I'm merely saying that a 22 year old PFC that hasn't had any job outside of the military doesn't have near as much in the way of life experience as was being implied. Hell, I'm almost 29, have been married and divorced, owned two separate houses, owned a business, and moved across the country twice and I wouldn't consider myself to have a lot of life experience... though certainly more than The Doc.

A 22 year old veteran may not have the sum total experience of a 29 year old, but that 22 year old has intangible experience that non-veterans don't comprehend. The situation of ones service makes a difference as well. I know guys who served their 4 year enlistment working a 7 AM to 4 PM desk job. I can see your point when comparing to them - although compared to a 22 year old college kid who has lived only at home, even the desk jockeys have greater work and life experience.

By the time I left the USMC at age 22, I was a non-commissioned officer, had served in 2 Combat Service Support Detachments and travelled all over the world and was a Journeyman level mechanic with 4 years technical experience and the ability to work under pressure. Not too many 22 year olds can put that experience on their resume. Technical employers recognize that type of experience and pay for it.

I do see your point to an extent, but don't be too quick to dismiss young veterans. They've often experienced more in a very short time than most people could imagine .

 

[Johnfromokc]

I understand the response you gave, though, have you read the previous statements made by Doc, you may understand more where Retro is coming from. I am not going to sit here and claim that he has no life experience, though, like retro has stated, simply because he has seen war, and the terrible things that come with it, does not mean that he has a grasp on life as a whole. I'd more likely say, he has a better grasp on death, unfortunately, and what it means to die, rather than be an expert on life.

Doc says all kinds of shit to be sure - and I empathize having been an intense, hell raising 18-22 year old military member once myself - but my comments have only to do with the minimizing of military experience. I'd like you to think about this statement you made:

simply because he has seen war, and the terrible things that come with it, does not mean that he has a grasp on life as a whole. I'd more likely say, he has a better grasp on death, unfortunately, and what it means to die, rather than be an expert on life.

I contend that one who has seen war, death and destruction up close and personal has experienced life at an intensity that only those who have experienced it can understand. This intensity can create an appreciation of life and an understanding of human nature at it's most violent and base. Don't be too quick to dismiss it. Doc will enter civilian life with an edge that others his age who did not serve do not have.

Some of my most cherished memories were from seeing real third world poverty first hand, sleeping in a corrugated tin shanty and waking to the sights, sounds and smells of poverty and human desperation. That gives an enhanced level of appreciation for being fortunate enough to have been born in a first world nation with its accompanying abundance. That experience can't be had by a civillian who has never left the comfort of their first world borders.

 

[The Doc]

Combat experience isn't life experience. That's not to detract from what you've been through in the army, but at the same time it isn't the same thing as actually dealing with life.

Out of curiosity... is your issue the circle? Would it be acceptable if it was a square or a heptagram? Or is it the feelings? Would it be okay if they just all talked about what's going on in their respective lives without speaking of their feelings?

I have worked with shittier bosses (NCO's) then you have, get paid much less then you, work much longer hours then you. Sleep less then you too. I sleep with no AC in the summer, and no heat in the winter at times. Sometimes there isnt a roof over where I sleep. I dont get lunch breaks, sometimes i dont even get food. I carry everything i need on my back, if I dont someone dies. My civilian counterpart (EMT-B) is barely allowed to put a bandaid on. While an EMT is waiting for the scene to be safe, Im firing to make sure its safe. My friends die on the job, and worst of all I cant afford to be sad about it. Your job gives you everything you need, mine doesnt. I have to scrounge and steal medical supplies from the bigger aid stations and combat support hospitals to take care of my guys. I get woken up everytime a soldier gets hurt or sick, or when a guy is too drunk to drive home from the bar. Im constantly packing my shit and moving from place to place, building to building. I dont ever get to settle down.

I think ill survive longer then you buddy.

You'll get no argument from me on that... my comment was only in response to this...



In that context, The Doc has very little "life experience"... combat doesn't equal life experience.

I can tolerate much more shit, pain, sadness, and anger then you can.

All I have to go on there is what I've been told by people I know that served... they've told me that combat prepared them for some things, but not the rigors and dealings of everyday life. I'm merely saying that a 22 year old PFC that hasn't had any job outside of the military doesn't have near as much in the way of life experience as was being implied. Hell, I'm almost 29, have been married and divorced, owned two separate houses, owned a business, and moved across the country twice and I wouldn't consider myself to have a lot of life experience... though certainly more than The Doc.

Rigors of every day life? I go grocery shopping, buy my own clothes, feed myself, show up to work, take care of my car etc... and I too love very far away from home. I do the same shit you do day to day.

 

[retro]

I have worked with shittier bosses (NCO's) then you have, get paid much less then you, work much longer hours then you. Sleep less then you too. I sleep with no AC in the summer, and no heat in the winter at times. Sometimes there isnt a roof over where I sleep. I dont get lunch breaks, sometimes i dont even get food. I carry everything i need on my back, if I dont someone dies. My civilian counterpart (EMT-B) is barely allowed to put a bandaid on. While an EMT is waiting for the scene to be safe, Im firing to make sure its safe. My friends die on the job, and worst of all I cant afford to be sad about it. Your job gives you everything you need, mine doesnt. I have to scrounge and steal medical supplies from the bigger aid stations and combat support hospitals to take care of my guys. I get woken up everytime a soldier gets hurt or sick, or when a guy is too drunk to drive home from the bar. Im constantly packing my shit and moving from place to place, building to building. I dont ever get to settle down.

Oh, and shittier bosses? You're hysterical.

I think ill survive longer then you buddy.

You don't know what hours I work... you don't know what my sleeping arrangements are, what my life entails. That all being said, I'm not knocking you for being a soldier, you do what I wasn't physically allowed to do. I've survived plenty of shit in my life... it didn't involve combat, but I've endured plenty of psychological hell in the course of my life. But again, this isn't a fight about who has been through more... I'm talking about the fact that a 22 year old doesn't have a ton of life experience. Nothing more and nothing less. You also haven't answered what your problem with AA is. The circle formation? Talking about feelings? Would talking about life without feelings be acceptable?

I can tolerate much more shit, pain, sadness, and anger then you can.

:24:

Oh man, that's fucking hilarious. You have absolutely no idea what kind of shit I've been through in my life. So don't try to claim otherwise.

Rigors of every day life? I go grocery shopping, buy my own clothes, feed myself, show up to work, take care of my car etc... and I too love very far away from home. I do the same shit you do day to day.

Those are basic human emotions and needs... I never claimed that you don't do any of those. I'm saying that being in combat doesn't particularly prepare people for life.

But, it'd be nice if you go back to the original topic here.

 

[The Doc]

You don't know what hours I work... you don't know what my sleeping arrangements are, what my life entails. That all being said, I'm not knocking you for being a soldier, you do what I wasn't physically allowed to do. I've survived plenty of shit in my life... it didn't involve combat, but I've endured plenty of psychological hell in the course of my life. But again, this isn't a fight about who has been through more... I'm talking about the fact that a 22 year old doesn't have a ton of life experience. Nothing more and nothing less. You also haven't answered what your problem with AA is. The circle formation? Talking about feelings? Would talking about life without feelings be acceptable?



:24:

Oh man, that's fucking hilarious. You have absolutely no idea what kind of shit I've been through in my life. So don't try to claim otherwise.



Those are basic human emotions and needs... I never claimed that you don't do any of those. I'm saying that being in combat doesn't particularly prepare people for life.

But, it'd be nice if you go back to the original topic here.

Psycological hell...lol...

I have already stated my issue about AA. Its not a cure, just a treatment. You will end up wasting years going to AA, having to return every week until God knows when. Hi My name is Doc, Im an Alchoholic. Im going to throw myself a pitty party about how awful my life is, then the guy to my right will try and say why his is more awful then mine. We will compete to see who throws our self a bigger pitty party and find out who the biggest attentionwhore is. Thats AA.

 

[retro]

You do realize that there is no "cure" for addiction, right? AA is a support mechanism to provide much needed help for people to deal with their addiction.

You also have no clue what AA is about either if you think it's people throwing pity parties for themselves. I suggest you educate yourself before acting the fool any longer.

 

[The Doc]

The cure to addiction is very simple. Its called dont do it. I was once addicted to a certain drug, got arrested, did a stint in a program and I havent touched it since. Been almost 4 years now. I think im cured.

 

[Joe the meek]

Hi My name is Doc, Im an Alchoholic. Im going to throw myself a pitty party about how awful my life is, then the guy to my right will try and say why his is more awful then mine. We will compete to see who throws our self a bigger pitty party and find out who the biggest attentionwhore is. Thats AA.

You seem to be talking out of your ass now unless AA has really changed. Pity parties don't accomplish nothing, and anyone who has stood up at an AA meeting most likely hasn't been through any more or less than anyone else at that same meeting.

You're young, dumb, and full of piss and vinegar. Comes with the territory in your position. That said, those drinking habits yours now have better change as you get older, or you better stay in and have the government keep your butt.

 

[Minor Axis]

We will compete to see who throws our self a bigger pitty party and find out who the biggest attentionwhore is. Thats AA.

Ok, so group therapy is not your thing, but that does not mean it can't be beneficial for certain individuals who respond to meaningful feedback from more than 1 person at a time.

You do realize that there is no "cure" for addiction, right? AA is a support mechanism to provide much needed help for people to deal with their addiction.

You also have no clue what AA is about either if you think it's people throwing pity parties for themselves. I suggest you educate yourself before acting the fool any longer.

I agree with you, however the defacto cure is to keep it shut down/under control.

The cure to addiction is very simple. Its called dont do it. I was once addicted to a certain drug, got arrested, did a stint in a program and I havent touched it since. Been almost 4 years now. I think im cured.

It appears you have a very simplistic view of addiction. The people who can easily quit are probably not addicted or have a low level addiction, or it's not easy at all, but they find an iron will to stop. Many people don't find the will until they have lost just about everything except their lives.

 

[The Doc]

You seem to be talking out of your ass now unless AA has really changed. Pity parties don't accomplish nothing, and anyone who has stood up at an AA meeting most likely hasn't been through any more or less than anyone else at that same meeting.

You're young, dumb, and full of piss and vinegar. Comes with the territory in your position. That said, those drinking habits yours now have better change as you get older, or you better stay in and have the government keep your butt.

Haha i only been 21 for like 3 months. Still in the enjoyment phase LOL. I am not going to re-enlist, unless i can get a job back home as a Corporal Recruiter, or working at MEPS by my home.

Ok, so group therapy is not your thing, but that does not mean it can't be beneficial for certain individuals who respond to meaningful feedback from more than 1 person at a time.



I agree with you, however the defacto cure is to keep it shut down/under control.



It appears you have a very simplistic view of addiction. The people who can easily quit are probably not addicted or have a low level addiction, or it's not easy at all, but they find an iron will to stop. Many people don't find the will until they have lost just about everything except their lives.

Im sure group therapy is beneficial, but its still makes you a panzie. Im sure crying is great for my health, but if i got seen doing it I would be made fun of and percieved as a pussy.

You dont have to "Keep anything shut down/ under control" if you dealt with it correctly the first time. I got sent to a juvinile program for charges i got relating to my drug addictions. I did 15 months, Jumpsuit, work all day, shitty food, no talking, 1 call to my parents for 10 mins every 2 weeks, 1 letter a week. Life fucking sucked. But that was the result of my addiction. I didnt want to have todo that again. I got out, didnt do drugs, joined the Army. Its been about 4 years and some change since i snorted my last line/popped my last pill. From 18 months of no freedom i figured out I dont want to end up there again. Therefore I didnt do drugs. I dont meet up once a week to talk to anyone about my feelings.

I didnt say Alchoholics should just quit and get over it. But im pretty sure a 1 hour pitty party for yourself isnt going to protect you from much with all the liquor stores you drive by, alchohol in movies you watch, seeing people drink at restaurants etc... If you take an alchoholic's freedom for a while i garuntee most of them wont touch it again.

 

[anathelia]

The cure to addiction is very simple. Its called dont do it. I was once addicted to a certain drug, got arrested, did a stint in a program and I havent touched it since. Been almost 4 years now. I think im cured.

As a genuinely curious question based on experience...

Do you ever think about doing whatever that drug was? Do you ever get cravings? Have using dreams? Ever do something and felt nostalgic for lack of a better word because it reminds you of using that drug? (Take cocaine for example...say you sniff because you feel congested and it feels similar to snorting a line.)

If you don't feel any of those things, then you're the first "former addict" I've ever met who can say that. Every single one of them that I've met maintains that it is sometimes a daily struggle to not think about their drug of choice, even though it isn't on a conscious level. And it's been nearly 4 years for one of them as well, so you can't say that you've just been clean longer.

It's not about actually doing the drug. It's about how there's always some part of you that wants it or thinks about it. That's what people talk about when they say they're never cured...when they say "once an addict, always an addict". Obviously not everyone who gets cleaned up goes back to doing drugs, but that most certainly doesn't make them "cured".

 

[The Doc]

As a genuinely curious question based on experience...

Do you ever think about doing whatever that drug was? Do you ever get cravings? Have using dreams? Ever do something and felt nostalgic for lack of a better word because it reminds you of using that drug? (Take cocaine for example...say you sniff because you feel congested and it feels similar to snorting a line.)

If you don't feel any of those things, then you're the first "former addict" I've ever met who can say that. Every single one of them that I've met maintains that it is sometimes a daily struggle to not think about their drug of choice, even though it isn't on a conscious level. And it's been nearly 4 years for one of them as well, so you can't say that you've just been clean longer.

It's not about actually doing the drug. It's about how there's always some part of you that wants it or thinks about it. That's what people talk about when they say they're never cured...when they say "once an addict, always an addict". Obviously not everyone who gets cleaned up goes back to doing drugs, but that most certainly doesn't make them "cured".

Do i dream about snorting coke, popping pills, smoking weed etc.. nope, never have. Not even when I was doing it. Do I think about snorting coke? Oh Sure i Do, then I remember wearing a jumpsuit and picking oranges, sweating my balls off working all day and eating shitty food...for 15 months. I think of the consequence that behavior got me. My friends were graduating high school, picking colleges, fucking girls... and I was lucky if the guy monitoring my calls to my dad gave me an extra 2 minuites.

 

[anathelia]

The fact that you never stop thinking about it is why a lot of addicts say they aren't cured. It's a conscious decision you make to not go out and do the drugs. I think that's why some people rely on things like AA or CA, or HA or NA or whatever groups there are out there. My brother almost died from a cocaine overdose in March of 2008, and he still thinks about doing it. He knows he never will. Like you, he's seen the consequences of his actions, and he doesn't want to have to go through hell again. However, on a mental level, I think he looks to these groups to be able to go through the process of the 12 step program, just to rid himself of some of the guilt that feels, and free himself from his past.

Some people don't need that. Some people do. It's all a matter of opinion and personal preference. But not everyone who goes to these groups is necessarily looking for support. Keep in mind that some people do genuinely have demons that they have to get past, and the 12 step program might be their last resort.

 

[The Doc]

The fact that you never stop thinking about it is why a lot of addicts say they aren't cured. It's a conscious decision you make to not go out and do the drugs. I think that's why some people rely on things like AA or CA, or HA or NA or whatever groups there are out there. My brother almost died from a cocaine overdose in March of 2008, and he still thinks about doing it. He knows he never will. Like you, he's seen the consequences of his actions, and he doesn't want to have to go through hell again. However, on a mental level, I think he looks to these groups to be able to go through the process of the 12 step program, just to rid himself of some of the guilt that feels, and free himself from his past.

Some people don't need that. Some people do. It's all a matter of opinion and personal preference. But not everyone who goes to these groups is necessarily looking for support. Keep in mind that some people do genuinely have demons that they have to get past, and the 12 step program might be their last resort.

I didnt say I never stopped thinking about it. Its apart of my past, i think about it from time to time, but it doesnt 'haunt me'. It was a dumb chapter of my life that i learned from. I wouldent touch cocaine on my worst day. I am not an addict because im not addicted to anything. Addiction is a Verb, because it is an action. Thinking about something doesnt make you an addict, doing something makes you an addict. When i was 13 years old I hadnt had sex before, but it was in my thoughts all day long. I imagined every girl in my class naked and daydreamed about fucking them all. Does that make me a sex addict? No. I was a virgin, and I was 13..

 

[anathelia]

Matter of interpretation I guess.