A Resource Based Economy

[retro]

Again, if you look back, my point was that these things are not human nature, which is the very basis of your criticisms here. That's all I'm saying. There has been flashes of vague consumerism in different cultures around the world, but consumerism, as we know it, really only became possible after the industrial revolution when manufacturing was capable of creating enough stuff, then it really only took it's modern, all encompassing form in the 1950s. Consumerism now is a way of life, it has never been so before.

This is my point. You're arguing that greed, consumerism and all the major bahvioural traits are "human nature" when this simply isn't the case. It's not genetically engrained in man kind to be consumers. We simply adapt to our environments, and right now, our environments lead mankind to be consumers. Not the other way around.

I disagree wholeheartedly with your sentiments about human nature. Consumerism merely replaced the previous systems. It was a natural progression of society given our desire for power, money, and prestige. All three of those traits have existed throughout recorded human history. If it wasn't money, it was power. Look at all of the empires during history, the Babylonian, Assyrian, Greek, Roman, and Ottoman empires were all created out of a desire for power and control over an entire region. Consumerism has existed for a long time, just under different names and different systems. When it wasn't money, it was power, when it wasn't power, it was prestige, when it wasn't prestige, it was control, and the list goes on an on. Consumerism just happens to be a byproduct of all of those other mitigating factors.

 

[edgray]

In answer to your three questions, yes, no, and no. But we're never going to get past most of those. It's simply the way that it is. Like I said, utopian communism is the solution, but the natural inclination of the human race will never allow such a thing to come to pass. At least not in my lifetime. There would have to be a mass awakening of sorts... I honestly feel like this is the reason there hasn't been a disclosure of alien life, because people would then realize that we're not alone in this universe and begin to think beyond our petty wars and disagreements and focus on improving our society as a whole.

Propaganda isn't an attack, it's a statement of fact. That's all that the zeitgeist videos are, whether you like it or not. They use out and out lies and half-truths in order to further their own agenda. The truth is distorted in order to make their "solutions" and viewpoints as the only ones that would work. I'm sorry if you take issue with the verbiage I'm using, but it's the most accurate way I can think of to put it.

Ok now we're getting somewhere, thanks.

True, I don't think this will happen in my lifetime either, btw, but I firmly believe we owe it to future generations to set the wheel in motion.

So, if life is emergent, why are we confining ourselves within a system that doesn't adapt to new knowledge and sticking to traditions we know to cause such problems?
This is of course in reference to the damage we're causing the planet, knowledge of the damage globalisation is doing to people all over the world, plus the latest scientific understanding of new technologies that are possible yet market forces are keeping them from us.

Also, can you justify that the Earth is not a finite resource?
Can the human race keep growing forever?
Will oil keep going forever?
Will Coal?
Will the rain forests still exist if we keep chopping them down at the rate we are?
Can any consumption last forever?

 

[edgray]

No, I agreed it is environmentally conditioned. But unfortunatley, everybody is exposed to it just by existing in the world.

but the point is, if we know that its environmental conditioning, we can change the environment, no?

 

[edgray]

gotta head out now, thanks for the debates guys, Retro I'll tackle that last statement if I can when I get back online tomorrow.

 

[retro]

Ok now we're getting somewhere, thanks.

True, I don't think this will happen in my lifetime either, btw, but I firmly believe we owe it to future generations to set the wheel in motion.

So, if life is emergent, why are we confining ourselves within a system that doesn't adapt to new knowledge and sticking to traditions we know to cause such problems?
This is of course in reference to the damage we're causing the planet, knowledge of the damage globalisation is doing to people all over the world, plus the latest scientific understanding of new technologies that are possible yet market forces are keeping them from us.

Also, can you justify that the Earth is not a finite resource?
Can the human race keep growing forever?
Will oil keep going forever?
Will Coal?
Will the rain forests still exist if we keep chopping them down at the rate we are?
Can any consumption last forever?

My mistake, I meant to say that the earth is technically a finite resource unless we do something to prevent that from happening. Unrestrained logging has destroyed rainforests, and there have to be alternative resources in place for power. Nuclear power is honestly the way to go as far as I'm concerned. It's a clean power source, unlike coal or any other fossil fuel. I think we'll continue to find sources of oil, and that existing sources will eventually become replenished. I'm not a believer in peak oil or situations like that. Solar energy isn't a viable solution due to the differences in climate and sunlight availability in different parts of the world. It can be used in some situations, but not others.

There's going to come a point when people realize that something has to be done, but utopian communism isn't the solution due to the reasons I've already specified. Consumerism is the way of the world, but it needs to be tempered if we're going to continue living.

 

[per Me]

Holy crap, I think you just summed up most religions and politicians!

i think you mean ALL religions?? that's the DEFINITION of "religion" for crying out loud

 

[shelgarr]

I'm jumping in because I had a thought I can't let pass by. Humans have only been on earth for a fraction of a smidgen of a blink. We are insubstantial. Given the notion that humans may exhaust the earth's resources, then doesn't that mean that the species will not survive? Its what occurs to many species and maybe it's exactly what is suppose to happen. Now, maybe we were gifted with this brain to figure out how to preserve, but that will only prolong things. Inevitably humans will probably become extinct.

 

[edgray]

My mistake, I meant to say that the earth is technically a finite resource unless we do something to prevent that from happening. Unrestrained logging has destroyed rainforests, and there have to be alternative resources in place for power. Nuclear power is honestly the way to go as far as I'm concerned. It's a clean power source, unlike coal or any other fossil fuel. I think we'll continue to find sources of oil, and that existing sources will eventually become replenished. I'm not a believer in peak oil or situations like that. Solar energy isn't a viable solution due to the differences in climate and sunlight availability in different parts of the world. It can be used in some situations, but not others.

I like the ITER Project, I think that's a far better idea that nuclear fission.

I think it'll be a combination of many sources though, but solar is definitely one we need to start using more. With even today's photovoltaic panels, you can power most households with a very small array, irrelevant of the weather outside.

Did you see this thread? http://offtopicz.net/showthread.php?t=66530&highlight=Solar+Doubters

It wouldn't take too much to take care of the entire world's energy needs from solar. Obviously moving it around from those locations could prove difficult, but you start to see the potential of solar energy.

There's going to come a point when people realize that something has to be done, but utopian communism isn't the solution due to the reasons I've already specified. Consumerism is the way of the world, but it needs to be tempered if we're going to continue living.

People need a wake up call really. This is the biggest problem with the anti global warming movement, they're making people distrust scientists and technology, and making people care less about the environment.

I think you've kind of mentioned that largest problem of all there, and that's this idea of "utopia". I don't think humans can ever achieve this. But every step we take should be one to make things better. Basing the world on a resource based system I'm sure would create other problems too, but with the application of technology to distribute needed resources to give everyone on the planet a good lifestyle in a sustainable fashion would go a long way to ending a lot of the issues we have nowadays.

 

[edgray]

I'm jumping in because I had a thought I can't let pass by. Humans have only been on earth for a fraction of a smidgen of a blink. We are insubstantial. Given the notion that humans may exhaust the earth's resources, then doesn't that mean that the species will not survive? Its what occurs to many species and maybe it's exactly what is suppose to happen. Now, maybe we were gifted with this brain to figure out how to preserve, but that will only prolong things. Inevitably humans will probably become extinct.

I know you're banned but this is worth responding to anyway.

This attitude is problematic. The problem of thinking that way is it's a very fatalistic attitude that will stop anything being done about it.

We have the technology, we just need to use it. Irrelevant of whether we survive or not, we owe to our planet and future generations.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

It would be rude to dump our problems on the the people ahead of us I think. And fatalism is such a wrong idea.

 

[Springsteen]

Personally I couldn't give a shit about the next generation, I won't be here to see any of it. I'll just try and enjoy it while I'm here.

(Before you get on your high horses, realize I also don't give a shit if I offend you )

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

If only you were at the end of the world, you wouldn't be saying that.

 

[edgray]

Personally I couldn't give a shit about the next generation, I won't be here to see any of it. I'll just try and enjoy it while I'm here.

(Before you get on your high horses, realize I also don't give a shit if I offend you )

You haven't offended at all.

But if not future generations then our own. We've got a good while left on this planet and oil is going to run out within it. When that oil runs out, if we haven't solved that problem we're in real trouble. Also our climate is changing, that's going to only get worse. And surely won't you care about the world you hand down to your children?

 

[Springsteen]

When that oil runs out, if we haven't solved that problem we're in real trouble.

Yes well with the current way of things I wouldn't have a great deal of confidence with that.

Also our climate is changing, that's going to only get worse

If it's cold it's cold, if it's hot it's hot. I don't really care about the weather, it happens.

 

[edgray]

Yes well with the current way of things I wouldn't have a great deal of confidence with that.

What, that the oil isn't going to run out? :shrug:

If it's cold it's cold, if it's hot it's hot. I don't really care about the weather, it happens.

We're seeing more extremes which is the problem. It's not just weather, it will affect everything.

 

[Springsteen]

What, that the oil isn't going to run out? :shrug:

No no, just that IF the oil runs out, I wouldn't be that confident it'd come back, as it does. But it's a big if.

We're seeing more extremes which is the problem. It's not just weather, it will affect everything.

Yeah but there's been bad weather in the past, as well as spells of prolonged extreme weather, it's happened before, it'll happen again. It worries me very little.

 

[edgray]

No no, just that IF the oil runs out, I wouldn't be that confident it'd come back, as it does. But it's a big if.

No it definitely won't come back, it took millions of years to form.

Yeah but there's been bad weather in the past, as well as spells of prolonged extreme weather, it's happened before, it'll happen again. It worries me very little.

Yeah that is true, the weather has gone to all manner of extremes in the past.

The kinds of problems our way of living is causing the planet could be avoided, which is why we should do them. There's no telling how bad we can make things if we carry on down this course.

 

[All Else Failed]

If you want a sustainable society there needs to be less people.


Also, most of the world's problems are because people are too short sighted.

 

[edgray]

I disagree wholeheartedly with your sentiments about human nature. Consumerism merely replaced the previous systems. It was a natural progression of society given our desire for power, money, and prestige. All three of those traits have existed throughout recorded human history. If it wasn't money, it was power. Look at all of the empires during history, the Babylonian, Assyrian, Greek, Roman, and Ottoman empires were all created out of a desire for power and control over an entire region. Consumerism has existed for a long time, just under different names and different systems. When it wasn't money, it was power, when it wasn't power, it was prestige, when it wasn't prestige, it was control, and the list goes on an on. Consumerism just happens to be a byproduct of all of those other mitigating factors.

Sorry for the seriously long time it's taken to respond to this. I've been looking into the various opinions of human nature. It's still very much an unknown quantity, with so many different opinions and angles being taken. However, I have noticed that consumerism isn't mentioned by any as a part of human nature.

This leads me to conclude that humans either have the ability to learn to be consumerist, or we have a predisposition to be molded into a consumer being. I put my weight in the latter category, and here's why:

Firstly, the problem with the assumptions you've made from the examples above is that you're assuming that the people within a societal framework actually have a say over what that framework is. Most people do not have a say. All of the societies you mention were top-down, much the same as now, and the people inside the societies merely functioning with what's permitted and expected of them. And all of the above societies were based on the same unsustainable and unjust principles of today's consumer culture, that is, the bill is footed by someone else, namely the slaves.

That aside, humans fit well into a consumerist society. This to me just shows how adaptable humans are. This is what has made us such a successful species: we adapt. Humans can adapt to any a large variety of environments it seems.

Secondly, the money and power drive isn't something I've seen mentioned in relation to human nature. It seems to apply to the very few. And they use this to build an appropriate framework around the rest of society that benefits them: consumerism, capitalism, statism or any kind.

Everything I've looked at recently has mentioned very basic human nature: survival, sociable, adaptability.

From that, it's easy to see that we're products essentially of the environments we live in. It might take generations to shake, but it is possible.

 

[edgray]

If you want a sustainable society there needs to be less people.

Also, most of the world's problems are because people are too short sighted.

We really don't know about this yet, because no one has calculated the carrying capacity of Earth yet.

I think we're a long way off. We just need to manage our resources better.