A Resource Based Economy

[Peter Parka]

Dont get me wrong, I think it's a lovely view you have, just completely unrealistic. Oh, and I have come back with something as well as others against your point. You just chose to ignore it because you bury your head in the sand and live in a fantasy world where humanity is nice and everyone cares about their fellow man.

 

[Francis]

The indians never scalped before the French taught their indian allies to do it to strike fear into the British (it sort of backfired when the Huron switched sides lol)
Not to detract from your point, but its just an interesting piece of information I thought.

Odd.. We were taught it was the British Soldiers that showed the Native Indians how to scalp people by doing it to them.. Not the French..

You Bloody Brits try to blame the French for everything don't you.. :24:

 

[edgray]

Greed is what creates consumerism

Also I do not agree with that.

If you look at the start of consumerism in the fifties, look what else came with it: ADVERTISING.

Consumerism is a manufactured trait. It didn't play on greed either, it played on fear.

The cause of consumerism was the rise in mass-manufacturing, the exploitation of overseas labour, advertising and the drive for profit. People adapted to that new environment. It's not human nature.

 

[edgray]

Dont get me wrong, I think it's a lovely view you have, just completely unrealistic. Oh, and I have come back with something as well as others against your point. You just chose to ignore it because you bury your head in the sand and live in a fantasy world where humanity is nice and everyone cares about their fellow man.

No I don't think humanity is nice. I think humanity is environmentally conditioned, that's all.

 

[Zorak]

No, if you look back throughout history, greed simply isn't a common trait. The few are greedy, if any, certainly not the majority.

Claiming a rock as your own isn't greed. And in those times, it was necessity and survival, that is not greed. Greed is taking more than YOUR share at the expense of others. This is a modern phenomenon. A very modern phenomenon.

Many of the Indian tribes fought. War was a part of their life. That doesn't mean it was greed driven. They needed their land to survive.

No, you cited south american tribes as an example of a life without greed-driven consumerism.
A ridiculous example that was too easy to call you up on, it was exactly greed that put an end to the Mayan civilization. The Inca empire housed more gold than has ever passed through Fort Knox or the Federal Reserve.
You implied the exact opposite in your posts and you well know it. And then to claim people are 'putting words in your mouth' when they call you up on such a ridiculous example strikes me as contrived.

 

[edgray]

No, you cited south american tribes as an example of a life without greed-driven consumerism.
A ridiculous example that was too easy to call you up on, it was exactly greed that put an end to the Mayan civilization. The Inca empire housed more gold than has ever passed through Fort Knox or the Federal Reserve.
You implied the exact opposite in your posts and you well know it. And then to claim people are 'putting words in your mouth' when they call you up on such a ridiculous example strikes me as contrived.

I cited south American tribes as cultures with different value sets.

 

[Zorak]

Also I do not agree with that.

If you look at the start of consumerism in the fifties, look what else came with it: ADVERTISING.

Consumerism is a manufactured trait. It didn't play on greed either, it played on fear.

The cause of consumerism was the rise in mass-manufacturing, the exploitation of overseas labour, advertising and the drive for profit. People adapted to that new environment. It's not human nature.

That's rubbish, the only thing that changed is the world shifted from an agriculturally centric economy into a product and service one. Consumerism already and has always existed in other forms. I mark it as a sign of progress and a great testament to the huiman race.
You and your lot will not take me back to the neolithic ages without a fight.

Anyway, I've said everything and more I wanted on the subject.

 

[edgray]

Also the Inca, Mayans etc aren't the only tribes in South and Central America...

 

[retro]

Dont get me wrong, I think it's a lovely view you have, just completely unrealistic. Oh, and I have come back with something as well as others against your point. You just chose to ignore it because you bury your head in the sand and live in a fantasy world where humanity is nice and everyone cares about their fellow man.

:homo:

Exactly. In theory, pure utopian communism is the best system. However, in practice, it is the most flawed system out there. Look at where Earth is in the Star Trek Universe... the quest for money isn't the driving force of humanity any longer, and that's a good thing. But the world isn't ever going to get to that point because we're all flawed as humans. People look out for their best interests, and those of their family and circle of friends, above everything else, and often times to the detriment of others.

The zeitgeist propaganda movement and the Venus Project aren't the answer any more than anything else that has ever been proposed. Just because I don't know what the answer is doesn't mean that I'm part of the problem... it simply means that I don't know the answers. The attitude that you and Kimmy portray towards those that don't agree with what you have to say is quite honestly pathetic. I refute a portion of what the first two videos have to say, but that doesn't count because I only bothered to refute part of them. Give me a break. I didn't bother with the rest because, quite frankly, it wasn't particularly worth my time. I've watched the first two videos, which is probably more than most people can say, and I don't agree with about 90% of what they have to say. The other 10% are the facts that I've made mention of previously.

Kimmy - I stated from the beginning that there are facts in those videos, but they're mixed in with half-truths, and outright lies. The facts are there in order to suck people in, and they figure that if part of what they have to say is true, then all of it must be.

Ed - In regards to ATS... there are a whole helluva lot of very brilliant people that post there that have debunked these videos. I encourage you to go take a look, you'd probably be very surprised to find what all is said there. Just because it's a conspiracy theory site first and foremost doesn't mean that people don't have very relevant and thought-provoking things to say. In fact, I'm surprised that you've derided that site, because I figured that a lot of the stuff there would be right up your alley given how much of a proponent of this movement you are.

 

[Zorak]

Ed, it was a stupid example. It should be retracted and not repeatedly requalified.

 

[edgray]

That's rubbish, the only thing that changed is the world shifted from an agriculturally centric economy into a product and service one. Consumerism already and has always existed in other forms.

I mark it as a sign of progress and a great testament to the huiman race.

You and your lot will not take me back to the neolithic ages without a fight.

Nope, not at all.

Show me where consumerism existed in medieval times. Or 10,000 years ago. Or times inbetween. Or in fact any times pre 1950.

A great testament to the human race? This is the whole point, consumerism has become possibly though exploitation and mass environmental destruction. A testament to the human race? Really?

An no one is talking about taking anyone back anywhere. It's about progressing past this destructive and highly uncivilised paradigm.

 

[edgray]

Ed, it was a stupid example. It should be retracted and not repeatedly requalified.

No, not at all in fact.

 

[retro]

Also the Inca, Mayans etc aren't the only tribes in South and Central America...

No, there were also the Toltecs, which were probably the height of mesoamerican society... unfortunately they were destroyed from within due to their lust for blood to sacrifice to their gods. At least that's how the rumors and stories go. In addition, the Aztec empire rose from the ashes of the Toltecs, as they tried to emulate their society, and did a very bad job of it from all outward appearances. Both societies were marked by their religous views with multiple gods, sacrificing people to said gods in order to please them, and the different kings still horded resources such as gold/silver, and more importantly at the time, obsidian for weapon making.

Using mesoamerican society as a blueprint for how things should be now is laughable at best, at least if you knew anything about those cultures.

 

[retro]

Nope, not at all.

Show me where consumerism existed in medieval times. Or 10,000 years ago. Or times inbetween. Or in fact any times pre 1950.

A great testament to the human race? This is the whole point, consumerism has become possibly though exploitation and mass environmental destruction. A testament to the human race? Really?

An no one is talking about taking anyone back anywhere. It's about progressing past this destructive and highly uncivilised paradigm.

There wasn't consumerism in the middle ages... nah, just feudalism and indentured servitude, not to mention outright slavery. Yet you're using this as a way to further your point? The same things that you're accusing consumerism or capitalism of being guilty of have been as part of human society since the beginning of recorded history.

 

[Zorak]

There wasn't consumerism in the middle ages... nah, just feudalism and indentured servitude, not to mention outright slavery. Yet you're using this as a way to further your point? The same things that you're accusing consumerism or capitalism of being guilty of have been as part of human society since the beginning of recorded history.

This. This. This. This. This.

 

[edgray]

The zeitgeist propaganda movement and the Venus Project aren't the answer any more than anything else that has ever been proposed. Just because I don't know what the answer is doesn't mean that I'm part of the problem... it simply means that I don't know the answers. The attitude that you and Kimmy portray towards those that don't agree with what you have to say is quite honestly pathetic. I refute a portion of what the first two videos have to say, but that doesn't count because I only bothered to refute part of them. Give me a break. I didn't bother with the rest because, quite frankly, it wasn't particularly worth my time. I've watched the first two videos, which is probably more than most people can say, and I don't agree with about 90% of what they have to say. The other 10% are the facts that I've made mention of previously.

I'm running out of time online, so i'll just tackle this for now.

Firstly, please refrain from using the "propaganda" attack. You can do better than that I'm sure.

Secondly, The Venus Project etc is one of the few projects that fully realises it's highly erroneous to try and solve problems created by a certain pattern with the very tools used in that pattern. It's simply not possible.

Thirdly, I don't want you to agree with the Venus Project or the Zeitgeist movement, we simply want people to realise the second point I just made.

Fourthly, you're attacking this saying "it's pathetic" yet you've yet to address the root beliefs of the movement.

Fifthly, and more productively, can I ask you the following, seeing as you disagree with 90% of what is being said:

Is human life an emergent system?
Is the world a finite resource?
Is suffering, poverty, war, environmental destruction etc a good thing?

 

[retro]

In answer to your three questions, yes, no, and no. But we're never going to get past most of those. It's simply the way that it is. Like I said, utopian communism is the solution, but the natural inclination of the human race will never allow such a thing to come to pass. At least not in my lifetime. There would have to be a mass awakening of sorts... I honestly feel like this is the reason there hasn't been a disclosure of alien life, because people would then realize that we're not alone in this universe and begin to think beyond our petty wars and disagreements and focus on improving our society as a whole.

Propaganda isn't an attack, it's a statement of fact. That's all that the zeitgeist videos are, whether you like it or not. They use out and out lies and half-truths in order to further their own agenda. The truth is distorted in order to make their "solutions" and viewpoints as the only ones that would work. I'm sorry if you take issue with the verbiage I'm using, but it's the most accurate way I can think of to put it.

 

[edgray]

There wasn't consumerism in the middle ages... nah, just feudalism and indentured servitude, not to mention outright slavery. Yet you're using this as a way to further your point? The same things that you're accusing consumerism or capitalism of being guilty of have been as part of human society since the beginning of recorded history.

This. This. This. This. This.

Again, if you look back, my point was that these things are not human nature, which is the very basis of your criticisms here. That's all I'm saying. There has been flashes of vague consumerism in different cultures around the world, but consumerism, as we know it, really only became possible after the industrial revolution when manufacturing was capable of creating enough stuff, then it really only took it's modern, all encompassing form in the 1950s. Consumerism now is a way of life, it has never been so before.

This is my point. You're arguing that greed, consumerism and all the major bahvioural traits are "human nature" when this simply isn't the case. It's not genetically engrained in man kind to be consumers. We simply adapt to our environments, and right now, our environments lead mankind to be consumers. Not the other way around.

 

[Zorak]

Again, if you look back, my point was that these things are not human nature, which is the very basis of your criticisms here. That's all I'm saying. There has been flashes of vague consumerism in different cultures around the world, but consumerism, as we know it, really only became possible after the industrial revolution when manufacturing was capable of creating enough stuff, then it really only took it's modern, all encompassing form in the 1950s. Consumerism now is a way of life, it has never been so before.

This is my point. You're arguing that greed, consumerism and all the major bahvioural traits are "human nature" when this simply isn't the case. It's not genetically engrained in man kind to be consumers. We simply adapt to our environments, and right now, our environments lead mankind to be consumers. Not the other way around.

No, I agreed it is environmentally conditioned. But unfortunatley, everybody is exposed to it just by existing in the world.

 

[Francis]

There wasn't consumerism in the middle ages... nah, just feudalism and indentured servitude, not to mention outright slavery. Yet you're using this as a way to further your point? The same things that you're accusing consumerism or capitalism of being guilty of have been as part of human society since the beginning of recorded history.

:homo:.... Your shinny sparkly stone for my 10 golden stones.. Humm Barter system.. I think this started in the Caveman era..