A Resource Based Economy

[Zorak]

This thread makes me feel physically sick.

"It's not fair, why should a ceo earm so much? Why can't we all earn the same?"

Here's a newsflash: You want to earn $500,000 a year and share it around, nobody is stopping you. Go out and fucking do it, as edgray says, all you have to do is try "and not make many stupid mistakes."

 

[Springsteen]

This thread makes me feel physically sick.

"It's not fair, why should a ceo earm so much? Why can't we all earn the same?"

Here's a newsflash: You want to earn $500,000 a year and share it around, nobody is stopping you. Go out and fucking do it, as edgray says, all you have to do is try "and not make many stupid mistakes."

Well said, they got there because they wanted to. Business is a harsh world at times, but it needs to be. For economic reasons.

 

[edgray]

This thread makes me feel physically sick.

"It's not fair, why should a ceo earm so much? Why can't we all earn the same?"

Here's a newsflash: You want to earn $500,000 a year and share it around, nobody is stopping you. Go out and fucking do it, as edgray says, all you have to do is try "and not make many stupid mistakes."

and the point flies by you at fantastic speed.

try and grab a hold next time Zorak, otherwise just keep it shut

 

[edgray]

The fact of the matter is that these videos and the "movement" that sprung up out of them are nothing but propaganda in order to further a flawed agenda.

Yeah a totally flawed agenda of creating a sustainable world for all peoples. Yeah, so very flawed....

What exactly is propaganda about it? You say about 9/11, yeah, there are still contestable issues there, but the point of that wasn't the event itself, but what it was used to do: which was launch phony wars (irrefutable), expand America's imperialism by securing foreign resources (irrefutable) and make people scared of a totally fictitious enemy (irrefutable) whilst the US continues its policies of rape and oppression around the world (irrefutable).

And the Fed stuff, I've looked into it, and it actually checks out rather well. Crikey, even Libertarians like Neil Kiernan Stephenson are behind the movement because they understand the problems with the monetary system. Ron Paul's issues with the Fed are no different.

The entire point, which clearly you're not willing to hear because it rattles your very narrow world view, is that we need to change. And that change cannot happen within our VERY limiting frameworks that we have so far for the following reasons:

1) The problems of the world cannot be solved in a profit driven system.
2) The world is a finite resource
3) slavery is wrong, exploitation is wrong
4) the human race cannot continue on our current path
5) Our current models do not even attempt to solve the world's issues
6) Our actions are destroying our planet and each other
7) We can do a lot better than we're doing now.
8) Wars are wrong, innocent civilians dying is wrong.
9) Our current way of living does not benefit many people.
10) We all inherit an equal share of the world's resources at birth
11) A hierarchical society structure like we have now leads to corruption
12) The profit motive STOPS real social change
13) The monetary system builds a fictitious and unnecessary wall between mankind and the resources of the planet

And that's just a handful of them. Keep your "agenda" accusations to yourself, it's an empty label used to imply dishonesty and bad motives. These people actually want to make the world better place, not just make the world more suitable for the rich. And they're coming up with ideas. What exactly are you doing, Retro? Oh yes, championing the status quo. Well done.

But then I guess you want a world filled with inequality, slavery, corruption, war, oppression, poverty and starvation. Otherwise you'd be thinking of solutions too.

 

[Tuffdisc]

How are you going to enforce a resource based economy where there is so much corruption/organised crime around?

Like the theory, but to make this work you would have to get rid of the corruption/crime first, that I would like to see

 

[Zorak]

and the point flies by you at fantastic speed.

try and grab a hold next time Zorak, otherwise just keep it shut

No the point flies by you and continues to do so. It's the same with every hippy, all the time.

The world will never regress into some neolithic (and I consider it neolithic, since the Archaemenid Empire practiced a form of Gold Standard) economy until an event of apocolyptic proportions. And for that I am eternally grateful.
Our economy is not perfect, but it offers a lot more than what you are proposing. It offers opportunity to resourceless countries (Singapore, Taiwan, Italy) and opportunity to resource-full countries too (Russia, China, Brazil, all of the middle east)
It offers the tools to provide internal stimulus, and external stimulus, how would you internally stimulate a resource based economy? The current economy provides value based on scarcity, which is a good and natural thing: Supply and demand in its simplest form. If you really expect people to place natural resources into some sort of global sharing bank and only ever take what they need, then you are so ridiculously deluded that it doesn't even bare talking about. But then, all zeitghiest ever was and ever will be is an exercise in futility.

And retro has nailed this zeitgheist video 80 times over and still it persists round these parts, perpetrated by you and your mouthpiece. It's sensationalist drivel aimed at those who fancy themselves as some kind of revolutionary. The fact that above top secret have denounced it speaks volumes as to its credibility.

 

[Tuffdisc]

1) The problems of the world cannot be solved in a profit driven system. Correct
2) The world is a finite resource Correct
3) slavery is wrong, exploitation is wrong Correct
4) the human race cannot continue on our current path Correct
5) Our current models do not even attempt to solve the world's issues What do you really should be done to solve this
6) Our actions are destroying our planet and each other Correct
7) We can do a lot better than we're doing now. Nothing concrete in place
8) Wars are wrong, innocent civilians dying is wrong. Correct
9) Our current way of living does not benefit many people.
10) We all inherit an equal share of the world's resources at birth Correct
11) A hierarchical society structure like we have now leads to corruption So what shall we replace this with?
12) The profit motive STOPS real social change Correct
13) The monetary system builds a fictitious and unnecessary wall between mankind and the resources of the planet Correct, but what should we replace any of this with?

All nice bemoaning that other people are rich and don't give a damn and replacing hierarchical society structure, but since you claim that every behaviour that happens in the animal kingdom is normal, this kind of happens to be in place in the ape/baboon species, so what if the upper echelons of our society is corrupt? I want to get on with my life and not bother with what others are doing

 

[retro]

No, you've never actually even attempted to debunk anything, just throw stupid statements at it.

http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1704177&postcount=92
http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1704178&postcount=93
http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1704207&postcount=94

hyped propaganda? how so? Please, tell me where in this video they are wrong.

You carry on maintaining the status quo there Retro, and proudly show your support of poverty, injustice, inequality, starvation, slavery and all those lovely things that our current systems bring us.

I haven't had time to watch this latest load of crap, but here's my response to the beginning of zeitgeist II

http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1695475&postcount=69

I also love how if I don't believe in what these propagandists videos are, I'm supporting slavery and starvation and all the other shit you claim. That's no better than when the Bush administration insinuated that if you didn't support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, then you were supporting terrorism. I thought you were better than that, apparently I was wrong.

 

[retro]

I would've thought that CEOs at the top could live without a $500,000 salary and bring it down to be fair.

Oh cry me a fucking river... who gave you the right to decide what is and isn't a fair wage? Nobody. This inequality bullshit pisses me off. It's not fair that someone is so rich, they should give their money to someone else that deserves it. Why don't you whine and cry about it more, would you?

The zeitgeist videos are propagandist bullshit, and absolutely nothing more than that. Like I said, a few facts and half-truths mixed in to delude those who want to believe.

As far as the objection to the "agenda" label... that's what this is. The makers of the zeitgeist videos have an agenda, and that is the claim that we all need to live in a socialist utopia.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

Oh cry me a fucking river... who gave you the right to decide what is and isn't a fair wage? Nobody. This inequality bullshit pisses me off. It's not fair that someone is so rich, they should give their money to someone else that deserves it. Why don't you whine and cry about it more, would you?

The zeitgeist videos are propagandist bullshit, and absolutely nothing more than that. Like I said, a few facts and half-truths mixed in to delude those who want to believe.

As far as the objection to the "agenda" label... that's what this is. The makers of the zeitgeist videos have an agenda, and that is the claim that we all need to live in a socialist utopia.

Who said anything about crying and whinging? :dunno

You said in your singular post about the beginning of Zeitgeist Addendum that there were enough facts mixed in, but there were significant flaws? Tell me how a fact is a flaw? You unhappy with the truth are you?

If you watched the section about the economic hitmen, well how can you say that is bullshit? People don't make up these stories, you can't deny somebody's experience and observations.

Seriously, why would they be lying? They aren't here to make a profit so what's the go anyway? And why do you not agree with what they support? Hell if you can think of a better way to live than why don't you start a project and we'll all call it propagandist bullshit for you.

 

[edgray]

http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1704177&postcount=92
http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1704178&postcount=93
http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1704207&postcount=94

I haven't had time to watch this latest load of crap, but here's my response to the beginning of zeitgeist II

http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1695475&postcount=69

Again, you attacking one tiny part of Peter Joseph and the Truth Movements view of 9/11, most of which is still conjecture and could be debated either way. You're conveniently ignoring the reason why 9/11 was brought up, which I covered in my previous post. Tell me none of that is true.

I also love how if I don't believe in what these propagandists videos are, I'm supporting slavery and starvation and all the other shit you claim. That's no better than when the Bush administration insinuated that if you didn't support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, then you were supporting terrorism. I thought you were better than that, apparently I was wrong.

That cliched saying, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, fits quite well here. The simple fact is that you support the mechanisms that cause and perpetuate all that, whilst attack anyone that criticizes it and wants it to change.

 

[edgray]

No the point flies by you and continues to do so. It's the same with every hippy, all the time.

The world will never regress into some neolithic (and I consider it neolithic, since the Archaemenid Empire practiced a form of Gold Standard) economy until an event of apocolyptic proportions. And for that I am eternally grateful.
Our economy is not perfect, but it offers a lot more than what you are proposing. It offers opportunity to resourceless countries (Singapore, Taiwan, Italy) and opportunity to resource-full countries too (Russia, China, Brazil, all of the middle east)
It offers the tools to provide internal stimulus, and external stimulus, how would you internally stimulate a resource based economy? The current economy provides value based on scarcity, which is a good and natural thing: Supply and demand in its simplest form. If you really expect people to place natural resources into some sort of global sharing bank and only ever take what they need, then you are so ridiculously deluded that it doesn't even bare talking about. But then, all zeitghiest ever was and ever will be is an exercise in futility.

I'm not a hippy, don't use such hollow attacks Zorak.

Our economies offer slavery. They build a bridge between mankind and the resources needed to live. They create poverty around the world, lead to wars, oppression and suffering.

And retro has nailed this zeitgheist video 80 times over and still it persists round these parts, perpetrated by you and your mouthpiece. It's sensationalist drivel aimed at those who fancy themselves as some kind of revolutionary. The fact that above top secret have denounced it speaks volumes as to its credibility.

Retro attempted to debunk 1 very small part of this. He hasn't address the far majority of things discussed in the videos, nor the philosophies behind the movement. That's the same logic that thinks that one tiny mistake can bring down an entire scientific theory. That's bogus in the absolute extreme.

Above Top Secret?? :24: :24: :24: yeah that says sooooo much!! That just made my day

Tell me, where are they wrong about globalisation? Where are they wrong about the need for change? Where are they wrong about the need to live in harmony with nature? These are the main points here, and yet no one is addressing them.

 

[edgray]

A little history for you Retro and Zorak:

1953 US & UK Overthrow democratically elected PM of Iran (Dr Mohammed Mossadegh, considered to be the hope for democracy in the Middle East, even becoming Times Magazine's Man of the Year) and installs US favorable Shah as dictator to maintain cheap oil supplies.

1954 US overthrows democratically elected President Arbenz of Guatemala as he wanted to give the land back to the Guatemalan people.
(200,000 civilians killed.)

1973 US Stages coup in Chile
Democratically elected President Salvador Allende assassinated
Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed into power
(5,000 Chileans murdered.)

1977 US Backs military rulers of El Salvador
70,000 innocents murdered.

1980 Afghanistan produces 0% of world's opium.

1981 Jaime Roldós, the democratically elected leader of Ecuador, who wanted to use the nations resources to help the Ecuadorian people, assassinated.

1981 Omar Torrijos, Leader of Panama, wanted his country to be treated fairly. He successfully put the Panama Canal back in the hands of the Panamanians. He was assassinated like Roldós.

1981 US funds and trains "contras"
(30,000 Nicaraguans die)

1982 US supplies billions in Aid to Iraq to kill Iranians
1983 US supplies weapons to Iran to help kill Iraqis

1986 Afghanistan now producing 40% of world's heroin supply.

1989 Noriega disobeys US orders, US invades Panama and removes Noriega
(3,000 Panamanian civilians are killed)

1990 Iraq invades Kuwait, US retaliates, reinstalls Kuwaiti Dictator

1991 - present day, US bombs Iraq, hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians die. UN estimates over 500,000 Iraqi children (yes, children alone) die from bombing and sanctions over this period.

1999 Afghanistan now producing 80% of world's heroin supply.

2000-2001 US gives millions in aid to oppressive Taliban regime in Afghanistan. Taliban destroy opium production.

September 9th, 2001, Afghanistan invasion plans on President Bush's desk.

1998 Hugo Chavéz democratically elected president. Chavez stands up to US oppression, saying oil should be used to help Venezuelans.
2002 Despite meteoric support, a coup is staged, very similar to that in Iran, and Chavez ousted. However, Chavez had too much support. Now he's part of the axis of evil...

2002 - Present Day - war in Afghanistan against Taliban to maintain opium fields Taliban had to destroyed. Continuing casualities of thousands of innocents every single year. Afghanistan back to producing 90% of world's heroin supply.

2003 - Present Day - Occupation in Iraq continues. Iraqi medical system is crippled, deaths increasing through violence and civil unrest. US occupation doing nothing to solve the problem. Terrorism increases.

 

[edgray]

Ok so there's a brief run-down of when the US's imperialism that funds your lifestyle has had to resort to violence to continue it's thrust of globalization.

That of course is not counting the regimes that have been corrupted by the US and play ball with them (It has become apparent, btw, that Egypt is one of them. That's why they have a peace agreement with Israel, no other reason, it was set up by the US, so don't ever use that utter bullshit excuse to justify the murder and oppression in Palestine ever again please*) at the expense of their people, people forced into incredible debt and servitude, working in sweat shops to pay for US organized debts and manufacture cheap goods for the US market. Debts that were created to fund US corporate projects that takes even more money and resources from those countries enslaved.

Might I suggest you look into what happened to Iceland recently, it's well documented. The first western nation to be declared bankrupt apparently. Have a look into how exactly that happened… that is US Imperialism right there when they don't have to resort to invasion.

Ok, so what does all of this have to do with you? Well, it's the result of capitalism and the concentrations of power it creates which results in the corrupt corporatocracy that governs the world. It's a result of international finance, the drive for profit, and the capitalist mechanisms that allow it.

And of course results also in the destruction of natural resources that goes along with that and created the propaganda campaign against any decent environmental movement.

 

[edgray]

This the is the basis of what the Zeitgeist Movement is wanting to change. This has to change. And the things that are stopping it from changing are people like yourself, refusing to see the symptoms of the system you condone, living in a comfy little consumer-driven television-fed bubble, brainwashed by the mainstream media into thinking US actions overseas are noble and just, and that your standard of living is earned fairly and without a negative effect on others nor the environment.

The Movement represents those who see the problems our current models have created, and understand that you cannot solve those problems with the very system they're symptoms of. Everything needs to change. And if you don't support that change, in whatever form it will take, you're giving the big thumbs up to everything above.

What the Zeitgeist movie says is nothing new. The anti-globalisation movement has been protesting all of this for years. The World Socialist movement too.

No ones asking you to agree with their solutions. There are many to be found. What they're asking, what we're asking, is simply look into it. Look into everything I've posted above, and see if that's the kind of system you want to perpetuate. Think about what's caused them. Think about how those atrocities could be stopped in the future. Think about how global poverty could be solved, how resources could be better managed, how sweatshops could be made a thing of the past. Think about how to solve the impending water crisis. Think about how we could create a sustainable world.

Think about:
1% of the world owning 40% of the wealth.
34,000 children that die every single day from poverty and preventable diseases
50% of the world's population living on less than $2 per day.

And then look at the history lesson above. And then correlate the two.

But most of all, just think.

The Zeitgeist Movement represents a unity of people all over the world who are waking up, realizing a change is consciousness is needed, realizing the old ways cause the suffering in the world. New ways of living need to be found, for the sake of the planet and all of it's inhabitants. It is vital that we move beyond the systems that perpetuate the above, and that we find ways to live in harmony with our surroundings and harmony with everyone on the planet. Otherwise war, poverty, environmental destruction, oppression and suffering will continue, and it will get worse.

Call it an enlightenment if you want. It's simply the realization that "establishment" goes against nature and society as we know it. It holds us back, perpetuates the above and halts necessary change.

Or perhaps, you simply don't care about all this. If that's the case, stand up and admit it, don't just insult something that you have no interest in investigating and understanding.

-------

*It's also worth noting that the corruption of the Egyptian government gave rise to the Islamic Fundamentalist, this is where the original Islamic Fundamentalists started their crusade, which was a reaction to their country being corrupted by the US.

 

[edgray]

How are you going to enforce a resource based economy where there is so much corruption/organised crime around?

Like the theory, but to make this work you would have to get rid of the corruption/crime first, that I would like to see

This is the challenge, and I really don't think anyone right now has the answer. But that doesn't mean it cannot be done. I would imagine it would be a gradual change, as is the general consensus in the movement.

Firstly, people need to acknowledge the causes of our problems and the need to change. Then we can start figuring out how best we can manage everything. Firstly, and most importantly, we need to survey the planet and calculate it's carrying capacity. This should be the basis of a resource based economy, so I guess that would be a good starting point.

The realisation is that corruption and crime are simply symptoms of our current systems. Once we start changing them, we can eradicate these problems. Sure, we'll come up against others, no on is saying we can achieve perfection, but we need to start somewhere. And the resource based economy is just a far more logical and sensible solution than what we have now.

All nice bemoaning that other people are rich and don't give a damn and replacing hierarchical society structure, but since you claim that every behaviour that happens in the animal kingdom is normal, this kind of happens to be in place in the ape/baboon species, so what if the upper echelons of our society is corrupt? I want to get on with my life and not bother with what others are doing

The behaviour or the animal kingdom is different to that in societies. Humans behaviour is determined by our environments. Change the environment, change the behaviour.

By the way, thank you for actually addressing this stuff

 

[Zorak]

A little history for you Retro and Zorak:

1953 US & UK Overthrow democratically elected PM of Iran (Dr Mohammed Mossadegh, considered to be the hope for democracy in the Middle East, even becoming Times Magazine's Man of the Year) and installs US favorable Shah as dictator to maintain cheap oil supplies.

1954 US overthrows democratically elected President Arbenz of Guatemala as he wanted to give the land back to the Guatemalan people.
(200,000 civilians killed.)

1973 US Stages coup in Chile
Democratically elected President Salvador Allende assassinated
Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed into power
(5,000 Chileans murdered.)

1977 US Backs military rulers of El Salvador
70,000 innocents murdered.

1980 Afghanistan produces 0% of world's opium.

1981 Jaime Roldós, the democratically elected leader of Ecuador, who wanted to use the nations resources to help the Ecuadorian people, assassinated.

1981 Omar Torrijos, Leader of Panama, wanted his country to be treated fairly. He successfully put the Panama Canal back in the hands of the Panamanians. He was assassinated like Roldós.

1981 US funds and trains "contras"
(30,000 Nicaraguans die)

1982 US supplies billions in Aid to Iraq to kill Iranians
1983 US supplies weapons to Iran to help kill Iraqis

1986 Afghanistan now producing 40% of world's heroin supply.

1989 Noriega disobeys US orders, US invades Panama and removes Noriega
(3,000 Panamanian civilians are killed)

1990 Iraq invades Kuwait, US retaliates, reinstalls Kuwaiti Dictator

1991 - present day, US bombs Iraq, hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians die. UN estimates over 500,000 Iraqi children (yes, children alone) die from bombing and sanctions over this period.

1999 Afghanistan now producing 80% of world's heroin supply.

2000-2001 US gives millions in aid to oppressive Taliban regime in Afghanistan. Taliban destroy opium production.

September 9th, 2001, Afghanistan invasion plans on President Bush's desk.

1998 Hugo Chavéz democratically elected president. Chavez stands up to US oppression, saying oil should be used to help Venezuelans.
2002 Despite meteoric support, a coup is staged, very similar to that in Iran, and Chavez ousted. However, Chavez had too much support. Now he's part of the axis of evil...

2002 - Present Day - war in Afghanistan against Taliban to maintain opium fields Taliban had to destroyed. Continuing casualities of thousands of innocents every single year. Afghanistan back to producing 90% of world's heroin supply.

2003 - Present Day - Occupation in Iraq continues. Iraqi medical system is crippled, deaths increasing through violence and civil unrest. US occupation doing nothing to solve the problem. Terrorism increases.

Common knowledge, congratulations you've got google.

The fact remains that a resource based economy does not and never will work, it would only take one nation to horde and they become a superpower. You said yourself that human beings are not generous in nature, an odd comment from an anarchist lol.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

How do we know if a resource-based economy doesn't work if we haven't tried?

 

[Springsteen]

it would only take one nation to horde and they become a superpower.

This right here

human beings are not generous in nature

for this very reason.

If you like the idea of a resource world, cool, cool for you, fight the power brother. It'll never happen though, doesn't have any need to economically.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

Economically it does have a need. This world can't sustain consumerism infinitely. We need to work with what we know we have and reduce consumerism and this drive for money. There's so much we could go without if only our needs stopped being created for us by money-hungry businesses. I mean really, how many handbags does a girl need? :dunno