Why Do People Vote Against Their Own Interest?

[nova]

***glarf garble spit sputterr***

Sorry, I just had to spit out all the words you're cramming in my mouth.

You truly believe that people only act in their own self interests?

Take off your ideologue hat and ask yourself for one half second, what is it that allows me to live the life I do? To do the job I do without having to do all the other myriad of things necessary to procure the resources to keep a human being alive?

The answer is blatant self interest. The farmer in Iowa grows corn and sells it to you because he has a blatant self interest in a profit. That keeps you from having to be a subsistence farmer, allowing you to live whatever life it is you lead. If you had to depend upon the good will of the farmer to eat, you would fucking starve my friend.

That argument goes for pretty much everything else that makes your life what it is.

No some people choose to be charitable at certain times but that altruism only goes so far and even then there's blatant self interest in that charity. Its the ultimate answer for why most people give to charity, not because its actually helping people because it may or may not, but because it makes them feel good. It soothes their emotions. Its once again, blatant self interest....

You must live a very sad life...

My life is mighty happy thanks much. At least as long as can keep the liberals like you from fucking it all up. You guys coming in to confiscate what I've earned at gunpoint is what makes me rather unhappy. In fact at the moment, its the primary factor keeping me from living the life I wanna live because you guys confiscate about half of what I make.

A sad life is one in which you feel like you're dependent upon and beholden to everyone under the sun just by virtue of the fact they exist. I'm not beholden to anyone just because mommy and daddy couldn't figure out how to use a rubber. If you feel that way fine, go join a fucking charity and leave the rest of us out of it....

And if your wife only got into medicine for the money, then you to should get along just fine.

:24: :24:

She got into it because she likes the biological sciences, likes a challenge and the money was a nice perk. And no, if you liberals get your way and put her de facto on the gov't payroll at a pittance, she and a lot of others will pack up and go home. Course I'm sure then you guys would force them back to work at gunpoint

I'm sure there are lots of people who are into medicine primarily because they "want to help people" but you're absolutely deluded if you think they're anything but a minority. There's a REASON that the majority of docs go into specialities where they can make gobs and gobs of cold hard cash instead of going into family practice like my loving wife where the pay is much much lower.

And as far as the one's who "want to help" that altruism will only go so far. Walk in and tell any one of them they have to take a 75% pay cut and see how many stick around. I can tell you that number is going to be pretty close to 0 given the number of older docs I've heard with my own 2 ears say they will quit and go home before they deal with a gov't takeover of medicine.

ETA

BTW, nice job not having any semblance of an argument and pulling out some demonizing emotional bullshit argument to cover it up. Keep it up!

 

[Accountable]

So you are against police protection, the military, fire protection, schools, public roads and bridges, unemployment compensation, etc...? The list is endless on things society helps provide for everyone.

WTH do you mean society should not pay for those who can take care of themselves? Who are these people? You're not one of them, I'm not, who is? Everyone benefits from society and everyone should contribute to it.

If you have zero interest in contributing from the society that you live in, then move out to the middle of some god forsaken forest never to benefit from the rest of us again. That is the only way you can truly say you do not benefit from the "commons" which you are so against. You would still be living in a cave somewhere if it were not for society and everything it has provided for you. For the opportunities it has granted you. You are nothing without this society that you hold in such contempt that you feel that you shouldn't have to participate or give back anything...

News flash (you'd better sit down for this): handing over hard-earned dollars to politicians to decide who best deserves them is not the only way to participate or give back to society.

 

[Minor Axis]

[/SIZE]
News flash (you'd better sit down for this): handing over hard-earned dollars to politicians to decide who best deserves them is not the only way to participate or give back to society.

Yes you can give $5 a week to your Church and let them travel the world converting the natives...

There are real inequities in society, traditionally people gather together into groups for group assist. And some of that assist requires $. The big argument becomes what are the valid reasons for social assistance? Conservatives as a rule don't believe there are any valid reasons as in "pull yourself up by the bootstraps, work hard, get a good job, and I won't have to give you any of my money." And while I believe the first part of the slogan is an admirable standard, the reality is that there are inequities that can only be addressed by society as a whole. Those that have done well, can expect through their taxes to help those who can't do as well as them. And if you have not noticed, it does not help society when a large percentage of U.S. based corporations are exporting every good paying job they can overseas. The prospect of getting a good paying job for the average citizen could become impossible adding to those in need. Of course with a conservative administration in power, the slogan would be "tough shit", then eventually you could have a revolution on your hands.

 

[Accountable]

You were gone so long I'd forgotten how hard you spin.

 

[Minor Axis]

You were gone so long I'd forgotten how hard you spin.

In physics terms, for every action there is an equal reaction. In politics as evidenced in this forum, that goes both ways. There is a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives on the roll of government. If you want to generalize, liberals have too much heart, conservatives don't have enough. It would be nice if the two groups could meet in the middle, but today's Republican party (which you are not apart of) shows no signs of wanting to compromise.

However while you may call it spin, corporations who are exporting every good job (they can) out of the country so executives can fill their pockets is not spin or exaggeration. It's self inflated egos and greed. Conservatives who see no purpose in social programs is not spin, it's a fact.

 

[Alien Allen]

In physics terms, for every action there is an equal reaction. In politics as evidenced in this forum, that goes both ways. There is a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives on the roll of government. If you want to generalize, liberals have too much heart, conservatives don't have enough. It would be nice if the two groups could meet in the middle, but today's Republican party (which you are not apart of) shows no signs of wanting to compromise.

However while you may call it spin, corporations who are exporting every good job (they can) out of the country so executives can fill their pockets is not spin or exaggeration. It's self inflated egos and greed. Conservatives who see no purpose in social programs is not spin, it's a fact.

Kind of like the democrats eh

 

[Accountable]

However while you may call it spin, corporations who are exporting every good job (they can) out of the country so executives can fill their pockets is not spin or exaggeration. It's self inflated egos and greed.

Nah, that's not exaggeration. They all sit in a conference room with HR and ask "Is this a good job?" "Yes." "Send it to, um, India." "is this a good job?" "Nope." "Okay, leave it in Wyoming."

Conservatives who see no purpose in social programs is not spin, it's a fact.

Nope, that's an exaggeration as well. Most conservatives are as loathe as liberals to do away with Social "Security".

 

[Minor Axis]

Nah, that's not exaggeration. They all sit in a conference room with HR and ask "Is this a good job?" "Yes." "Send it to, um, India." "is this a good job?" "Nope." "Okay, leave it in Wyoming."

No, they say "this job costs us $15/hr in the U.S. but in China/Mexico it's $.50/hr, good business decision, make it happen!"

Then the CEO thinks "right on track for my golden parachute! I so deserve this because I'm indispensable!!"

 

[nova]

No, they say "this job costs us $15/hr in the U.S. but in China/Mexico it's $.50/hr, good business decision, make it happen!"

Then the CEO thinks "right on track for my golden parachute! I so deserve this because I'm indispensable!!"

It makes sense period. Why do you need relatively educated (compared to the rest of the world) expensive labor to make cheap consumer shit? The answer is you dont. Its the same reason you might hire the kid down the street to cut your grass instead of the pro lawn care business. You need a kid with a push mow and not a pro with a 65" ZTR mower to get the job done....

Its also the reason that American manufacturing is now concentrated in high quality consumer and capital goods. Things that cost a lot of $$ that the purchaser expects to last a long long time. In terms of dollar value and tonnage of goods produced, we really are second only to China in output and becoming second to China is only a very recent occurance. People just don't see it because its mostly stuff that individuals don't buy like airplanes and electrical transformers, etc etc....

 

[Minor Axis]

It makes sense period.

The problem is your employees are part of your team or they are not. And if they are your employees, they deserve a living wage. And you as CEO and your management team don't deserve a ga-zillion dollars to live happily ever after while your employees grovel in the dirt. Or better yet, just get rid of all your labor employees and just keep on management. This is basically a philosophical problem, based on greed and inflated self worth.

Then expand this problem across society. Society only functions if it benefits the majority, not the minority. If and when it goes past the tipping point, your society will implode.

Globalization is a natural process, but undeniably, workers in developed countries are being screwed as millions of jobs are being transferred to 3rd world countries by CEOs who think they deserve hundreds of millions of dollars of compensation. There is a direct correlation.

 

[retro]

Globalization is a natural process, but undeniably, workers in developed countries are being screwed as millions of jobs are being transferred to 3rd world countries by CEOs who think they deserve hundreds of millions of dollars of compensation. There is a direct correlation.

I'm amazed that you have such great connections that allows you to be able to speak with all of these CEOs to find out what they do and don't think they "deserve".

 

[nova]

The problem is your employees are part of your team or they are not. And if they are your employees, they deserve a living wage. And you as CEO and your management team don't deserve a ga-zillion dollars to live happily ever after while your employees grovel in the dirt. Or better yet, just get rid of all your labor employees and just keep on management.

People only deserve what their labor is worth. What their labor is worth is dictated by what they can convince their employer to pay for it. A fair price for anything is what the buyer and seller can agree to.

This is basically a philosophical problem, based on greed and inflated self worth.

The philosophical problem comes in with people who think they know whats best for everyone else be it morals with conservatives or business and social issues with you liberals. Its a problem based on arrogance.

Globalization is a natural process, but undeniably, workers in developed countries are being screwed as millions of jobs are being transferred to 3rd world countries by CEOs who think they deserve hundreds of millions of dollars of compensation. There is a direct correlation.

Except for the fact that study after study has shown that when you export 1 job making cheap crap to whatever 3rd world craphole, you tend to generate between 1.1 and 1.5 higher paying jobs in the economy you're moving jobs from, although not necessarily at the same company. It simply takes more people in management and transport and a myriad of other areas to put all the puzzle pieces together. Its a direct result of the efficiency gain from letting people do the work they're best at.

Its no different than when we replaced farm workers with machines and then later factory workers with machines and robots. In each instance it generated more net jobs because of the people required to design, manufacture and maintain the machines. We've been "eliminating" domestic jobs for over 100 years now and still managed statistically full employment or really close to it for the vast majority of that time.

Oh and CEOs deserve whatever they can convince the BoD and owners they're worth. Again a fair price for anything is whatever the buyer and seller can agree on.

 

[Accountable]

The problem is your employees are part of your team or they are not. And if they are your employees, they deserve a living wage.

Can you nail down a definition of that term for me, please?

 

[Tim]

There is no hard number for a living wage. It can mean different things to different people.
Hell, once upon a time a living wage was one where the husband could support his family with his paycheck. Now it would mean that both parents need to work to support their family.

 

[Tim]

Except for the fact that study after study has shown that when you export 1 job making cheap crap to whatever 3rd world craphole, you tend to generate between 1.1 and 1.5 higher paying jobs in the economy you're moving jobs from, although not necessarily at the same company. It simply takes more people in management and transport and a myriad of other areas to put all the puzzle pieces together. Its a direct result of the efficiency gain from letting people do the work they're best at.

Its no different than when we replaced farm workers with machines and then later factory workers with machines and robots. In each instance it generated more net jobs because of the people required to design, manufacture and maintain the machines. We've been "eliminating" domestic jobs for over 100 years now and still managed statistically full employment or really close to it for the vast majority of that time.

Oh and CEOs deserve whatever they can convince the BoD and owners they're worth. Again a fair price for anything is whatever the buyer and seller can agree on.

Complete and total bullshit.

Your argument only holds up when its jobs making cheap crap.

What about places like Bethlehem steel that's right down the road from me? It produced the highest grade steel in the world. It employed 20,000 people and the plant stretched over 4 miles. It had the largest machine shop in the world which produced steel for the Golden gate bridge to naval ships. When they closed up shop it devastated the town, the economy. These jobs just went away with nothing to replace them.
And this story is not a unique one. Manufacturing across the country has just vanished with nothing to fill the void. We use to be the world leader in manufacturing, not anymore.

Good for the CEO, bad for the workers.

 

[Accountable]

There is no hard number for a living wage. It can mean different things to different people.
Hell, once upon a time a living wage was one where the husband could support his family with his paycheck. Now it would mean that both parents need to work to support their family.

Then it's not a standard that can be argued for.

Care to give it your definition, Minor?

 

[Strauss]

I'm amazed that you have such great connections that allows you to be able to speak with all of these CEOs to find out what they do and don't think they "deserve".

Actually, I do and I've meet with most of the biggies and I can tell you for a fact he's full of crap. They are to almost every man and woman, hard working, dedicated, tough and mental sharp and intelligent with ungodly competing interests that they have to placate.

 

[nova]

Complete and total bullshit.

Liberals never have been known for being able to deal with reality.... :24:

Your argument only holds up when its jobs making cheap crap.

Which is the majority of the jobs that have been "exported" permanently.

What about places like Bethlehem steel that's right down the road from me? It produced the highest grade steel in the world.

News flash! Bulk industrial raw material is on the list of "cheap crap" and has been for a damn long time.

It employed 20,000 people and the plant stretched over 4 miles. It had the largest machine shop in the world which produced steel for the Golden gate bridge to naval ships. When they closed up shop it devastated the town, the economy. These jobs just went away with nothing to replace them.

They went away at that particular geographic location. More likely than not, jobs replaced them somewhere else. Jobs and opportunies move around the country, the same as has happened for time immortal. Get over it.

one. Manufacturing across the country has just vanished with nothing to fill. We use to be the world leader in manufacturing, not anymore.

Not that you'll actually fucking read it, but I'll repeat it again anyway.

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS STILL A MAJOR MANUFACTURING NATION. #2 IN TONNAGE AND #1 IN DOLLAR VALUE AND WE ONLY RECENTLY DROPPED TO #2 IN TONNAGE!

I thought we were #2 in dollar value as well but thats apparently incorrrect.\

http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2009/10/13/data-on-the-largest-manufacturing-countries-in-2008/

Manufacturing has not fucking vanished in any way shape or form. Yet again, we just make big expensive things that the average individual has no need for and does not buy. Airplanes, electrical transformers, precision equipment, heavy machinery.

But don't let a little thing like reality get in the way of your liberal dream to bash on anybody who's actually productive....

 

[Minor Axis]

Then it's not a standard that can be argued for.

Care to give it your definition, Minor?

My definition of a living wage allows you to live independently of your parents in some level of comfort, in at least an apartment, with your medical covered, above the poverty level.

Nova, it's most of the smaller manufacturing that used to provide high school graduates with acceptable paying jobs that have vanished to the toon of tens of millions (more?) of jobs gone. The list of things we used to make is all most too long to post. You can kid yourself that it has no impact, there is a lot of that going around. You can justify why they don't derserve those jobs, but it's becoming class warfare. Conservatives consistently worry about national sovereignty but it's not for our citizens, it's so their business buds can operate unfettered often at the expense of average citizens who they don't give a damn about. Taken to an extreme, exporting manufacturing becomes a security issue. Business does not think in those terms, only profits. It takes a government to do that.

The myth of globalization is that cheep jobs go overseas while the good jobs stay here. Now that only happens if you have a government who makes that happen. If businesses have their way all the good paying jobs, things like accounting, software, architecture, everything that can be exported would all go to the cheaper labor source and I mean even the reading of X-rays by a physician/technician. If you argue any other way, you are kidding your self or being deceitful in your arguments.

 

[nova]

My definition of a living wage allows you to live independently of your parents in some level of comfort, in at least an apartment, with your medical covered, above the poverty level.

Hey lets get inflation rolling along good.

You want a living wage, you need to do work thats worth a living wage. Too many people know how to scrub toilets and sweep floors....

Nova, it's most of the smaller manufacturing that used to provide high school graduates with acceptable paying jobs that have vanished to the toon of tens of millions (more?) of jobs gone. The list of things we used to make is all most too long to post.

So fucking what? This is not the first time in the history of the US much less the world that the proponderance of jobs has shifted from one area to another. On top of that it doesn't take a fucking college degree to drive rivets into an airplane skin or running the winding machine for a transformer.

150 years ago 98% of the populace was engaged in farm labor, now its less than 2% as automatiion eliminated jobs. There was no fucking economic apocalypse then. People found other places to apply their time and energy.

50 years ago thousands of factory workers lost their jobs to machines and robots. There was no economic apocalypse then. People found other places to apply their time and energy.

The exact same thing is happening now. Again, despite all these lost jobs we've typically managed to maintain statistically full employment and the real median income has risen over the last 50 years. If all these people are either jobless or are working shitty low paying jobs after being displaced from factories, how do you explain that? The answer is you can't, they're contradictory. More people have managed to find higher paying jobs despite all the jobs we've supposedly lost.

You can kid yourself that it has no impact, there is a lot of that going around. You can justify why they don't derserve those jobs, but it's becoming class warfare. Conservatives consistently worry about national sovereignty but it's not for our citizens, it's so their business buds can operate unfettered often at the expense of average citizens who they don't give a damn about. Taken to an extreme, exporting manufacturing becomes a security issue. Business does not think in those terms, only profits. It takes a government to do that.

Blah blah blah, I don't like the choices people are making so I want gov't to step in and squash their ability to make choices. Blah blah blah :thumbdown

The myth of globalization is that cheep jobs go overseas while the good jobs stay here. Now that only happens if you have a government who makes that happen. If businesses have their way all the good paying jobs, things like accounting, software, architecture, everything that can be exported would all go to the cheaper labor source and I mean even the reading of X-rays by a physician/technician. If you argue any other way, you are kidding your self or being deceitful in your arguments.

Quality and accountability is what has and will keep those jobs here. People don't buy big expensive and/or precision equipment from an ignorant chinese factory worker that just stepped out of the rice paddy 3 weeks ago. They buy it from established, certified manufacturers in places with a relatively educated and semi-skilled workforce.

And once the development of these third world areas reached a certain point and wages being to rise, there will reach a point where the pendulum swings back and manufacturing jobs will return because at that point it will no longer be cheaper to manufacture things halfway around the world and ship them in.