Who lives and who dies? Baby or Mother.

[Tim]

I didn't vote. The question's far too complex to boil it down to just the mother or the child.

It is a very complex question and could very well change with differing circumstances.

For example... When Alicia was preggo with Logan it would have been a very tough decision with me leaning towards saving the baby. But with this baby it would be a completely different story. I would choose Alicia over the baby because as devastating as it would be to loose the baby, I think it would be worse to loose Logan's mother.

 

[thatguyjeff]

To everyone who says they or someone else is "pro-abortion," I ask you to examine that statement. Are you really in favor of abortion or are you in favor of choice? I'm pro-choice in that I support the right to choose. I'm not "pro-abortion" because I don't support any abortion, nor am I against any abortion. I have no opinion on any abortion because it's none of my business what anyone decides. Which brings me to my point...

A big part of being pro-choice has nothing to do with life or death. It's about placing undue burden on the expectant mother. I'm pro-choice because I don't want anyone to think they need to justify their decision. You have the right to choose for any or no reason. You don't need to prove you were raped, the victim of incest, or need to relive whatever difficult experience you had in front of some medical review board, jury or what-have-you. Your choice is yours and your business alone. Which brings me to the original question...

I have no choice in the matter. The majority of births occur with the mother concious and no doctor or hospital is going to listen to what I have to say. It's my wife's choice. My preference would be that she considers my feelings, needs, etc. in her situation but the choice is still hers and hers alone - without having to provide any justification. If the situation were that my wife was not concious and I was the only person who could make the choice, then I would choose the life of my wife. And I reserve the right to provide no justification whatsoever for my decision.

I find it very ironic that the original poster claims to be pro-choice while asking for logic/justification in what others say. I know you're just trying to promote debate on the subject and that's fine. But the whole Roe v. Wade decision was based upon a privacy issue. The essence of pro-choice is about the right to choose without providing any justification for said choice and here we are talking about choices and what the justification might be. Ironic, no?

 

[Jessica]

It's not a matter of "want" or "don't want." The scenario left no wiggle room. Might as well respond to the opposite choice with "you want the baby to die?? ):"

This is part of why I'm saying it's too complex to boil down to this. You're 15. In my eyes you're a baby just starting out in life with tons of experiences to enjoy. In your case I'd likely choose to save you. Another woman, say in her 40s or 50s and otherwise childless might ... might ... get a different response from me.

oh ok

 

[Pabst]

i was told of a story of a woman who was pregnant and was told the child had no brain. the baby only lived for 45 minutes but the woman found the positive in it. that's more than she would have had otherwise. it was about finding the positive in loss.

i'm pro choice, pro free will, pro autonomy. i dont give justifications and i dont ask for them.


and black and white scenarios for the lose, the world doesnt work that way. politics maybe...

 

[GuesSAngel]

I find it very ironic that the original poster claims to be pro-choice while asking for logic/justification in what others say. I know you're just trying to promote debate on the subject and that's fine. But the whole Roe v. Wade decision was based upon a privacy issue. The essence of pro-choice is about the right to choose without providing any justification for said choice and here we are talking about choices and what the justification might be. Ironic, no?

i was told of a story of a woman who was pregnant and was told the child had no brain. the baby only lived for 45 minutes but the woman found the positive in it. that's more than she would have had otherwise. it was about finding the positive in loss.

i'm pro choice, pro free will, pro autonomy. i dont give justifications and i dont ask for them.


and black and white scenarios for the lose, the world doesnt work that way. politics maybe...

if both of you are pro-choice, i think that's great....if you don't feel the need to 'justifications' stay out of the debate? don't give your reasons then...

And no, there's nothing ironic in this thread.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Yeah but you're still choosing to let your baby die...and some people might think that the mother has lived her life and the baby has more to live for...needs to be given a shot at life

With the last part of your post, yes this is different...and i agree with you on that part, abortion shouldn't be used as birth control for stupid women. But there are other reasons that women have abortions...may not be completely popular, but 99% of pro-lifers would tell you they don't give a shit about the situation. A woman can be gang banged and get pregnant, and they would still want her to have that baby. Fact. And that's pretty disgusting.

You're wrong about 99% of 'Pro-lifers' not giving a crap about the situation. Rape, incest, and threat of life to the mother make up the trifecta of reasons 99% of 'Pro-lifers' (Including me) will see as acceptable. Obviously it is't an ideal situation, but like I said earlier, that's life.

What is more discusting is the idea that 'Pro-choicers' think it's perfectly okay for a 25 year old woman to get pregnant, decide at the last second she's not ready to be a mom, and have the doctor hold the baby half in the womb until he is able to strangle him to death. ...

THAT is discusting.

 

[Dakota Jim]

some great god, he just killed the mother

Yeah god is great my ass.

 

[Dakota Jim]

You're wrong about 99% of 'Pro-lifers' not giving a crap about the situation. Rape, incest, and threat of life to the mother make up the trifecta of reasons 99% of 'Pro-lifers' (Including me) will see as acceptable. Obviously it is't an ideal situation, but like I said earlier, that's life.

What is more discusting is the idea that 'Pro-choicers' think it's perfectly okay for a 25 year old woman to get pregnant, decide at the last second she's not ready to be a mom, and have the doctor hold the baby half in the womb until he is able to strangle him to death. ...

THAT is discusting.

No what is disgusting is do gooders like you and others deciding what a young woman should do with HER own body. You think it's better to bring in a child who is unwanted or going to be a deformed mess throughut it's life than allow Mom to make a decision she feels best for her or the embryo.

 

[GuesSAngel]

You're wrong about 99% of 'Pro-lifers' not giving a crap about the situation. Rape, incest, and threat of life to the mother make up the trifecta of reasons 99% of 'Pro-lifers' (Including me) will see as acceptable. Obviously it is't an ideal situation, but like I said earlier, that's life.

What is more discusting is the idea that 'Pro-choicers' think it's perfectly okay for a 25 year old woman to get pregnant, decide at the last second she's not ready to be a mom, and have the doctor hold the baby half in the womb until he is able to strangle him to death. ...

THAT is discusting.

Well then maybe we're both wrong. Because the prolife people that I know that will go on the marches in Washington DC and so on, don't give a shit about rape incest and the threat of life.

Yes the second scenario happens all the time

 

[Peter Parka]

I guess I'm what you'd call a pro lifer. I'm against abortion in general as its killing another, innocent human being. When it comes down to the likes of rape, the mother dying ect, I think that is a personal decision which I wouldn't judge anyone on.
I personally find it hypocritical that a lot of pro abortionists have no problem with an innocent baby getting killed because the mum fucked up but will argue tooth and nail that a murderer dosent deserve the death penalty... but thats probably a discussion for another thread... I'm anti death penalty too by the way.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Well then maybe we're both wrong. Because the prolife people that I know that will go on the marches in Washington DC and so on, don't give a shit about rape incest and the threat of life.

Yes the second scenario happens all the time

The second scenario does in fact happen all of the time, but with 300+ million people in America, I agree with you that it is only the far extreem fring.

Equal/opposite the pro-life marchers you know who see no middle ground on abortion.

I personally feel that we need to find agreement on when does a baby become a baby. Clearly conception is too early for the far left, and the cutting of the cord is too late for any sane individual.

I personally am a big fan of the heartbeat being the deciding factor. Stopping the heartbeat of a child in the womb is stopping the heart of a living person. Anything before that, I'm okay with being open to interpretation.

I choose the heartbeat idea, because that is the standard they use for the death of adults. Why should children be any different?

 

[GuesSAngel]

The second scenario does in fact happen all of the time, but with 300+ million people in America, I agree with you that it is only the far extreem fring.

Equal/opposite the pro-life marchers you know who see no middle ground on abortion.

I personally feel that we need to find agreement on when does a baby become a baby. Clearly conception is too early for the far left, and the cutting of the cord is too late for any sane individual.

I personally am a big fan of the heartbeat being the deciding factor. Stopping the heartbeat of a child in the womb is stopping the heart of a living person. Anything before that, I'm okay with being open to interpretation.

I choose the heartbeat idea, because that is the standard they use for the death of adults. Why should children be any different?

As a mother, I believe that I have a baby in me from the start. But I believe that, not as birth control, but as scenarios that you mentioned a woman should be allowed to abort her baby with no if's and's or but's plus a few more that are my personal opinions. and that's just me.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

I personally believe it is a baby from the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg. However, if there were to be a definition, I like your heart idea. It's logical. I'm also tempted to say that when it can survive outside the womb (ie developed, functioning lungs) then it's a baby.

 

[GuesSAngel]

I personally believe it is a baby from the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg. However, if there were to be a definition, I like your heart idea. It's logical. I'm also tempted to say that when it can survive outside the womb (ie developed, functioning lungs) then it's a baby.

well i would just say survive outside of the womb and leave it at that. i mean there are situations where the baby needs help with functioning lungs...or they aren't completely developed.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

I'll give you that, but that's generally the first point that it can survive on it's own...

 

[Accountable]

No what is disgusting is do gooders like you and others deciding what a young woman should do with HER own body. You think it's better to bring in a child who is unwanted or going to be a deformed mess throughut it's life than allow Mom to make a decision she feels best for her or the embryo.

Yeh, death is always preferable to being unwanted. :sarcasm

 

[IntruderLS1]

As a mother, I believe that I have a baby in me from the start. But I believe that, not as birth control, but as scenarios that you mentioned a woman should be allowed to abort her baby with no if's and's or but's plus a few more that are my personal opinions. and that's just me.

Well don't look now, but you're technically pro-life.

 

[GuesSAngel]

Well don't look now, but you're technically pro-life.

and you're technically pro-choice

 

[Dakota Jim]

Yeh, death is always preferable to being unwanted. :sarcasm

Especially when you have no NOW, NO concept of life OR death and are just a bunch of cells....:sarcasm

 

[IntruderLS1]

and you're technically pro-choice

The difference is, that you would be welcome as a normal, rational human being in 90% of pro-life circles with your views, but I'm a right-wing Christian fundamentalist extreemist in 90% of pro-choice circles for mine.