Who is rushing home to listen to President Obama.

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BadBoy@TheWheel

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Yes, they actually are shining examples of government health care. They are run much more efficiently than private insurance. They don't deny claim in the name of profits and you know damn well that your claim will be paid no matter how sick you get. Can they be improved upon? Absolutely! But since when do we just give up on something because it's hard or needs improvement? Instead of complaining about the problems medicaid and medicare have why don't we address them and fix them?
Why do you think Medicaid and medicare have these problems? Do you think it has anything to do with the passage of legislation designed to sink the program? Legislation designed to subsidize private health care and pharmaceuticals to the tune of hundreds of millions each year?

Once again I will say it, if we were to actually do what's right by these programs and not what's right by the corporations who write these laws, then we will actually see a positive change. The foxes need to be driven from the hen house before we can see ANY positive change in this country. And as long as our politicians are bought and paid for by them, we will never fix anything.

I have repeatedly said that. If we fix what is broken with the forementioned programs, then the gap coverage should be adequate. There's not a need for a new program.
Next the ever advancing corporate hospital system needs to know that charging $100 for a band-aid is fraudulent and illegal
 
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Tim

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I heard all of it. The $900 billion dollar front end expense comes at the cost of more taxpayer dollars, I know how un-patriotic of me to bitch about MORE taxation.
The additional load will come in the form of penalties to insurance companies, who of course will pass the screwing on to covered people in the form of higher premiums
Yeah I heard the fucking speech, and what I hear is either way, this plan is going to cost a fortune, be mis-managed and lost in the shuffle like all government programs, and raped by lobby and government profiteers
Your argument is that this fixes a gap, my argument is we are putting more in the hands of people who cannot be trusted to chew gum without fucking someone over.

We are already being raped in the ass.... everyone of us are being raped. If you can't see that, then you need to step back and look a little harder.

How much is added to your and my premiums each year to pay for the people who don't have insurance? About $1,400.00 a year. So you would save that much alone if everyone was covered.
How much more does our health care cost when we go see the doctor or are admitted to the hospital to cover the other patients who will never pay their bill? How much will that save you each year if every bill was paid?
How much more do you pay for products and services of any kind so they can pay their employees health care coverage? How much more will you be paid and how much will you save on these products and services if we had a universal coverage?
How much do companies pay each year in workers compensation each year? I know that the rate for my industry is in the 20% range. That means for every dollar that we bring in, we must pay 20% to workers compensation. And it's as high as 57% for roofers in our area. Do you know that workers compensation would just vanish if we had universal health care? How much more money would be put directly back into the pockets of business owners, workers and consumers???
 

nova

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Obama is talking down to us? Really? I never once felt like he was talking down to me, not at all. Is this a new talking point I need to add to the list?

I wouldn't. Its a significant workload keeping up with the Obama talking points trying to demonize the rest of us for not wanting to go along with his statist bullshit....

I am an Obama supporter and I can guarantee you that I am not a mindless follower.

Really? You sure seem to repeat a lot of talking points with not even a minimum of analysis to be such a free thinker....

Actually I want him to push for universal health care and not pander to the corporations and special interests.

Oh yes, I would love rationed care. I want a gov't flunky determining whether I live or die based on his accuturial assessment of my worth the nation. Its like insurance at the point of a spear.... :sarcasm

And for those of you that are dead set against universal health care in this country and continue to support our fucking greed and inhumanity when it comes to the health of our citizens, don't expect me to feel sorry for you when you lose a loved one or even your home when your insurance company fails to cover you in the name of profits.

More stupid emotional arguments.

Nova's Law:
1. Emotional arguments lead to solutions that make you feel like the problem is being solved.
2. Rational logical arguments lead to solutions that really solve the problem.

And if you are too stupid to see that with the amount of money that flows through the health care system today we could ALL have top notch care. Every man women and child in the US could be covered with the amount of money wasted in the US...

So you're implcitly for rationing? Thats the only thing I can get out of that because thats the only way you can dictate to people what kind and how much health care they can spend their money on in order to distribute it to people that "need" it.

and with all that money we are spending, we are still lower that many countries when it comes to infant mortality and life span... Yeah, we got the best health care in the world :sarcasm

JFC, the same stupid tired arguments. I'll break this up into two sections.

1. Life span: Yeah if you use non-standardized numbers we have a shorter lifespan, you know, numbers that don't take into account non-healthcare lifestyle differences like the shit food Americans eat and the fact that a disproportionate number of us die young in accidents and the like. If you actually normalize the numbers for a fair comparison, they look like this, and surprise, we rank #1...

lifeexpectancy.jpg


2. Infant Mortality: Again, if you use jacked up numbers with different comparison metrics, we're behind. The fact that most European countries count a baby that dies <4 hours after birth as a "stillbirth" instead of a "dead infant" whereas we here in the US count any baby that shows any signs of life and then dies as a "dead infant." Again, when you adjust for those differences in tabulation, we're right ther with every other first world nation, including the vaunted socialized medicine countries.

Maybe next in your line of tired previously debunked arguments you can pull out that WHO study that ranks us 37th in the world. The one that uses how socialized a system is as a ranking metric. Lets go ahead and use some completely circular logic to go with the bad statistics...

We are the only industrialized country on the face of the planet that allow corporations to make a profit on basic health care, we are the only ones that put out health care in the hands of the vultures and then stand behind them and call it patriotic/capitalism. I have never seen so many idiots listen to a few talking points and scare tactics that make them fight against their own interests.

Ohh god. People make profit on something people want and need. Next fucking thing you know, those evil farmers will be charging us for lfe giving nourishment of food. Greedy Fucks! :sarcasm

And I'm sure glad I have you here to tell me whats in my own interest or else I'd never know... :sarcasm
 

Tim

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I have repeatedly said that. If we fix what is broken with the forementioned programs, then the gap coverage should be adequate. There's not a need for a new program.
Next the ever advancing corporate hospital system needs to know that charging $100 for a band-aid is fraudulent and illegal

Actually some of the best hospitals in the world are right here in Philadelphia and they are non profit organizations. They attract the best talent from around the world and they are constantly upgrading and adding new facilities (I should know, I am the one over seeing a lot of the millwork) even in this down economy.
So if they can be the best in the world and have the brightest doctors lining up to work there all while being a non profit organization, it should tell you something.
 

BadBoy@TheWheel

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We are already being raped in the ass.... everyone of us are being raped. If you can't see that, then you need to step back and look a little harder.

How much is added to your and my premiums each year to pay for the people who don't have insurance? About $1,400.00 a year. So you would save that much alone if everyone was covered.
How much more does our health care cost when we go see the doctor or are admitted to the hospital to cover the other patients who will never pay their bill? How much will that save you each year if every bill was paid?
How much more do you pay for products and services of any kind so they can pay their employees health care coverage? How much more will you be paid and how much will you save on these products and services if we had a universal coverage?
How much do companies pay each year in workers compensation each year? I know that the rate for my industry is in the 20% range. That means for every dollar that we bring in, we must pay 20% to workers compensation. And it's as high as 57% for roofers in our area. Do you know that workers compensation would just vanish if we had universal health care? How much more money would be put directly back into the pockets of business owners, workers and consumers???

I don't disagree with you there either, again. I have stated, corporate hospital systems are to blame for the $500 ER visits, $100 band-aids and $200 Tylenols. That to me is gouging, it was when gas prices were $3 a gallon...Remember? ;)
I don't want to give anymore power or money to folks who spend $7000 to make a hammer to go into space until we FIX what is badly broken, not a $900 billion band-aid
That's all I ask, it's beyond partisan politics
 

Tim

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Oh yes, I would love rationed care. I want a gov't flunky determining whether I live or die based on his accuturial assessment of my worth the nation. Its like insurance at the point of a spear.... :sarcasm

OMG! Rationed health care!!! I don't want rationed health care! I don't want to stand in front of the government death panel!!!

:willy_nilly:
 

BadBoy@TheWheel

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Actually some of the best hospitals in the world are right here in Philadelphia and they are non profit organizations. They attract the best talent from around the world and they are constantly upgrading and adding new facilities (I should know, I am the one over seeing a lot of the millwork) even in this down economy.
So if they can be the best in the world and have the brightest doctors lining up to work there all while being a non profit organization, it should tell you something.

And that's fantastic! My family including myself are heavily involved in Shrine Hospital fundraising and it's a wonderful thing, but we are ridden with corporate ran hospitals, which are problematic because of what I have already mentioned. $100 for a band-aid....Really?
 

nova

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Yes, they actually are shining examples of government health care. They are run much more efficiently than private insurance. They don't deny claim in the name of profits and you know damn well that your claim will be paid no matter how sick you get. Can they be improved upon? Absolutely! But since when do we just give up on something because it's hard or needs improvement? Instead of complaining about the problems medicaid and medicare have why don't we address them and fix them?

Fine. Deal. Once you manage to fix those you let me know and then we'll talk about digging your hands in elsewhere. You have to demostrate competence before you move on to something else though...

Why do you think Medicaid and medicare have these problems? Do you think it has anything to do with the passage of legislation designed to sink the program? Legislation designed to subsidize private health care and pharmaceuticals to the tune of hundreds of millions each year?

Just a little FYI, my wife is a Dr. Medicare and Medicaid pay so fucking little to providers, that the end result is the costs are past on to private insurance in the form of high charges. You wanna lower the cost of insurance, then first fix medicare and medicaid so they actually pay what the services are worth...



The foxes need to be driven from the hen house before we can see ANY positive change in this country. And as long as our politicians are bought and paid for by them, we will never fix anything.

Agree 100%. The statist dumbasses on both sides of the aisle need to be sent packing post haste.



We are already being raped in the ass.... everyone of us are being raped. If you can't see that, then you need to step back and look a little harder.

Yes, lets look a little harder....

How much is added to your and my premiums each year to pay for the people who don't have insurance? About $1,400.00 a year. So you would save that much alone if everyone was covered.

Broken window fallacy. All benefit without regard for cost. Adding more people to the insurance rolls is not going to lower the overall costs, if anything its going to raise it because more people will be going to the Dr regardless of whether they need to or not. All you're going to do is shift who is paying the bil and oh by the way you're going to toss more gov't beauracracy and waste on top of it...

How much more does our health care cost when we go see the doctor or are admitted to the hospital to cover the other patients who will never pay their bill? How much will that save you each year if every bill was paid?

Absolutely nothing will be saved. All you're doing is shifting who pays the bill. Again if anything you're going to increase the bill.

How much more do you pay for products and services of any kind so they can pay their employees health care coverage? How much more will you be paid and how much will you save on these products and services if we had a universal coverage?

Again, you just shift the bill from being built into goods and services to being in your tax burden. And again, added a layer of gov't waste on top and added more people to the rolls so the tax bill ends up bigger....

How much do companies pay each year in workers compensation each year? I know that the rate for my industry is in the 20% range. That means for every dollar that we bring in, we must pay 20% to workers compensation. And it's as high as 57% for roofers in our area. Do you know that workers compensation would just vanish if we had universal health care? How much more money would be put directly back into the pockets of business owners, workers and consumers???

No it wouldn't. Apparently you've never been involved with business in any way shape or form. Workmans comp is is a seperate risk pool insurance for on the job accidents. Its an insurance innovation that actually does keep health insurance costs down because they can assess risk of workplace accidents separately.

Good friend of mine is a gas pipeliner. He was burned in a natural gas flash fire a couple weeks ago and had to go the hospital. He gave them his regular (very good) corp health care card. Despite being 100% covered for ER visits by his normal coverage, all the charges eventually went to workmans comp.


It is a fundamental economic impossibility to cover more people, for more ailments, all the time on demand and have it cost less. It WILL NOT HAPPEN.
 

nova

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OMG! Rationed health care!!! I don't want rationed health care! I don't want to stand in front of the government death panel!!!

:willy_nilly:

Go ahead and be flippant. Makes you look like you know just that much more about what you're speaking of...:sarcasm

Its Econ 101 my man. Health care is a scarce resource with virtually unlimited demand. I mean seriously unlimited demand. Can you tell me how much health care an individual "needs?" Thats a pretty easy question for something like food or shelther but not so much health care. If you can't say, then it could be anything and it will ultimately be decided to be extremely high.

When allocating any scarce resource there is rationing in one form or another. Right now we have price rationing. Its a natural outcome of any market system. Everything from hamburgers to ferraris is rationed via price.

Especially for unlimited demand health care, without rationing, costs spiral out of control. That is not conjecture, that is reality.

When the gov't controls things and does all the paying, price rationing goes out the window and what you end up with is fiat rationing. Ie, a gov't flunky determining what care you get and how much of it you get.

Unless you want to bankrupt the country, that will happen. And when you are rationing care via fiat, then you are in fact deciding who lives and who dies. That is the rationed, logical outcome.

Rationing By Any Other Name - Megan McArdle

Robert Wright notes that "we already ration health care; we just let the market do the rationing." This is a true point made by the proponents of health care reform. But I'm not sure why it's supposed to be so interesting. You could make this statement about any good:

"We already ration food; we just let the market do the rationing."
"We already ration gasoline; we just let the market do the rationing."
"We already ration cigarettes; we just let the market do the rationing."

And indeed, this was an argument that was made in favor of socialism. (No, okay, I'm not calling you socialists!) And yet, most of us realize that there are huge differences between price rationing and government rationing, and that the latter is usually much worse for everyone. This is one of the things that most puzzles me about the health care debate: statements that would strike almost anyone as stupid in the context of any other good suddenly become dazzling insights when they're applied to hip replacements and otitis media.

The rationing is, first of all, simply worse on a practical level: goods rationed by fiat rather than price have a tendency to disappear, decline in quality, etc. Government tends to prefer queues to prices. This makes most people worse off, since their time is worth much more than the price they would pay for the good. Providers of fiat-rationed goods have little incentive to innovate, or even produce adequate supplies. If other sectors are not controlled, the highest quality providers have a tendency to exit. If other sectors are controlled, well, you're a socialist, and I just agreed not to call you a socialist, because you're not a socialist.

But there is also a real difference between having something rationed by a process and having it rationed by a person. That is, in fact, why progressives are so fond of rules. They don't want to tell grandma to take morphine instead of getting a pacemaker. It's much nicer if you create a mathematical formula that makes some doctor tell grandma to take morphine instead of getting a pacemaker. Then the doctor can disclaim responsibility too, because after all, no one really has any agency here--we're all just in the grips of an impersonal force.

But this won't do. If you design a formula to deny granny a pacemaker, knowing that this is the intent of the formula, then you've killed granny just as surely as if you'd ordered the doctor to do it directly. That's the intuition behind the conservative resistance to switching from price rationing to fiat rationing. Using the government's coercive power to decide the price of something, or who ought to get it, is qualitatively different from the same outcome arising out of voluntary actions in the marketplace. Even if you don't share the value judgement, it's not irrational, except in the sense that all human decisions have an element of intuition and emotion baked into them.
 

nova

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I'll send your name up for a corporate gold star.

A thread full of facts and logical arguments and this and Mr. Flippant are the respones. Its no wonder libs will do whatever dear leader says, regardless of what the outcome is...
 

Minor Axis

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A thread full of facts and logical arguments and this and Mr. Flippant are the respones. Its no wonder libs will do whatever dear leader says, regardless of what the outcome is...

The only facts you'll acknowledge are the ones that support your argument.

Its Econ 101 my man. Health care is a scarce resource with virtually unlimited demand. I mean seriously unlimited demand. Can you tell me how much health care an individual "needs?" Thats a pretty easy question for something like food or shelther but not so much health care. If you can't say, then it could be anything and it will ultimately be decided to be extremely high.

Your pushing unregulated capitalism. It's being argued that health care does not belong under econ 101 where the sky is the limit for profits. Health care can be non-profit or less profit and still be effective. The system as it currently exists is bad for most of us.
 
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nova

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The only facts you'll acknowledge are the ones that support your argument.

You show me a fact and I'll debate it. All I see are distortions and outright lies being perpetrated by a group of people hungry for more power...

Your pushing unregulated capitalism. It's being argued that health care does not belong under econ 101 where the sky is the limit for profits. Health care can be non-profit or less profit and still be effective. The system as it currently exists is bad for most of us.

I'm not talking about money or profits. I'm talking about demand, ie the amount people want. Profits have nothing to do with demand for the purposes of this discussion. I'm just talking about the supply of a good vs the demand for a good...

Take the demand for food. There is an upper limit on the demand for food. People can only physically eat so much per day. There is no such limitation on health care, thus the demand is vritually unlimited.

If the demand is unlimited and the supply is relatively fixed, and it is given the time to train Drs. build hospitals and develop drugs, then one of three things has to happen.

1. In a free market, prices go up. The price signal dampens demand.
2. In a controlled market, the controller tells you what you can get short-circuiting demand.
3. In a free market with no prices, there are shortages.

Imagine putting a table with 100 hamburgers in the middle of a room with 1000 hungry people. If they're free with no control, somebody will go without. If they're controlled, everybody will get some, but not nearly enough to satisfy them. If they're not free, the price will be set such that some people decide they just don't want a burger that badly.

This is not some abstract argument, this is reality.
 

Minor Axis

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You show me a fact and I'll debate it. All I see are distortions and outright lies being perpetrated by a group of people hungry for more power...

I'm not talking about money or profits. I'm talking about demand, ie the amount people want. Profits have nothing to do with demand for the purposes of this discussion. I'm just talking about the supply of a good vs the demand for a good...

Take the demand for food. There is an upper limit on the demand for food. People can only physically eat so much per day. There is no such limitation on health care, thus the demand is vritually unlimited.

If the demand is unlimited and the supply is relatively fixed, and it is given the time to train Drs. build hospitals and develop drugs, then one of three things has to happen.

1. In a free market, prices go up. The price signal dampens demand.
2. In a controlled market, the controller tells you what you can get short-circuiting demand.
3. In a free market with no prices, there are shortages.

Imagine putting a table with 100 hamburgers in the middle of a room with 1000 hungry people. If they're free with no control, somebody will go without. If they're controlled, everybody will get some, but not nearly enough to satisfy them. If they're not free, the price will be set such that some people decide they just don't want a burger that badly.

This is not some abstract argument, this is reality.

The key to this discussion is to control a situation by finding a solution that benefits most of us, consequently not primarily focused on business profits. A sei-la-vie free market argument won't be acceptable to the majority (although the conservatives would love it).
 

retro

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Yes, they actually are shining examples of government health care. They are run much more efficiently than private insurance. They don't deny claim in the name of profits and you know damn well that your claim will be paid no matter how sick you get. Can they be improved upon? Absolutely! But since when do we just give up on something because it's hard or needs improvement? Instead of complaining about the problems medicaid and medicare have why don't we address them and fix them?
Why do you think Medicaid and medicare have these problems? Do you think it has anything to do with the passage of legislation designed to sink the program? Legislation designed to subsidize private health care and pharmaceuticals to the tune of hundreds of millions each year?

Once again I will say it, if we were to actually do what's right by these programs and not what's right by the corporations who write these laws, then we will actually see a positive change. The foxes need to be driven from the hen house before we can see ANY positive change in this country. And as long as our politicians are bought and paid for by them, we will never fix anything.

You're insane if you actually think that Medicare is a shining example of government healthcare. Medicare is run with such waste that even dear leader Obama is using it as a way that the $900 billion for his plan will be covered without going into further debt. The CBO has said that simply won't work. Even if it does, the fact that there's so much waste in the system that Obama plans on using the money saved from reforming it to pay for his health care plan proves that Medicare is incredibly inefficient.

Furthermore, I'll draw your attention back to the thread I posted a few weeks ago that nearly all of you chose to ignore. Medicare and the health care situation, where I outlined the fact that Medicare is slated to cut reimbursements by 22% across the board in 2010, this is on top of the fact that they already reimburse far lower than the private insurance companies do. If those changes go into effect next year, my dad's clinic (the third largest group of private physicians in the central valley) will more than likely stop seeing Medicare patients. They won't have a choice because it will cost them more than they're reimbursed to see the patients, and like it or not, these physicians do have to make a living. Medicare is also talking about possibly boosting the reimbursements to primary care physicians, which would help, but they plan on doing it at the expense of Cardiologists and Oncologists to the tune of 10% for each, while only boosting payments to family practice docs by 8% (and 7% for NPs). Why are they doing this? Because their study decided that the overhead for those specialties has gone down. While percentage-wise they may be right, their actual overhead has gone up, so they're squeezing these doctors far more than private insurance companies could. The bulk of patients seen by Cardiologists and Oncologists are Medicare patients, and these reimbursement cuts are going to force physicians to either require their patients to cover the difference, or they simply will stop seeing those patients. Offices are already cutting hours for their staffs, because they can't afford it. If this happens it has the potential to put many small-town Cardiologists completely out of business because it wouldn't be economically feasible for them to continue to practice medicine in that environment, because they'd effectively be paying to see their patients.

So you go on lauding Medicare for being a "shining example" of government run health care... and I'll stay here in the real world, with real facts to back me up. I worked in health care for four years, and I've been hearing about the business end of it for most of the last 17 years. My dad was the Medical Director for his clinic and has been on their board of directors for nearly the rest of the time, and as such he's involved in all of the insurance negotiations, etc. I've had in-depth conversations with him about all of this, and he's in agreement with most doctors... there needs to be reform, but government run health care isn't the answer. Those reforms need to come in the form of Medicare reform, tort reform, and reform on how much the insurance companies can charge for services and how much they reimburse physicians for those services.

So while your dear leader demanding reform and government run health care... at the same time he's attacking physicians, and Medicare is cutting their reimbursements and forcing physicians out of business. That sounds like exactly what this country needs.
 

Tim

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No it wouldn't. Apparently you've never been involved with business in any way shape or form. Workmans comp is is a seperate risk pool insurance for on the job accidents. Its an insurance innovation that actually does keep health insurance costs down because they can assess risk of workplace accidents separately.

Never been involved with business in any way shape or form? Really?

Let me fill you in on something son. I have been involved with business since before you were a twinkle in you fathers eye. I have personally paid more dollars into the worker's comp fund than you have seen in your lifetime. I acquire more dollars in contracts yearly and manage those projects than you will make in your lifetime. So don't tell me about worker's comp and what it does. It's an insurance on top of another insurance. It ensures that liability of a company is covered in the event that a worker is injured on the job. It pays for all medical coverage and any future medical costs attributed to any workplace accident. It also covers any possible lawsuits and loss of future earnings. The latter two would still need coverage, but at a reduced rate of the current system since the vast majority of claims require only medical coverages. And why would you need to make sure medical coverages are available to employees if EVERYONE is already covered?

Go ahead and be flippant. Makes you look like you know just that much more about what you're speaking of...:sarcasm

Its Econ 101 my man. Health care is a scarce resource with virtually unlimited demand. I mean seriously unlimited demand. Can you tell me how much health care an individual "needs?" Thats a pretty easy question for something like food or shelther but not so much health care. If you can't say, then it could be anything and it will ultimately be decided to be extremely high.

When allocating any scarce resource there is rationing in one form or another. Right now we have price rationing. Its a natural outcome of any market system. Everything from hamburgers to ferraris is rationed via price.

Especially for unlimited demand health care, without rationing, costs spiral out of control. That is not conjecture, that is reality.

When the gov't controls things and does all the paying, price rationing goes out the window and what you end up with is fiat rationing. Ie, a gov't flunky determining what care you get and how much of it you get.

Unless you want to bankrupt the country, that will happen. And when you are rationing care via fiat, then you are in fact deciding who lives and who dies. That is the rationed, logical outcome.

Rationing By Any Other Name - Megan McArdle

So you have no problem with the rationing of health care as long as it's economic based? As long as the high costs keep the dregs of humanity out of your doctors office, you're ok with it?
We have more doctors and nurses per 1000 population than most industrial nations, yet you feel that we will need to ration health care if everyone is covered... you do realize that EVERYONE in the US can go to the hospital today and get treatment without any type of coverage or means to pay for the treatment, right? You do realize that everyone IS getting health care whether they pay for it or not. That just by covering them it will not mean there will be more hospital visits, right?
 

nova

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Let me fill you in on something son. I have been involved with business since before you were a twinkle in you fathers eye. I have personally paid more dollars into the worker's comp fund than you have seen in your lifetime. I acquire more dollars in contracts yearly and manage those projects than you will make in your lifetime. So don't tell me about worker's comp and what it does. It's an insurance on top of another insurance. It ensures that liability of a company is covered in the event that a worker is injured on the job. It pays for all medical coverage and any future medical costs attributed to any workplace accident. It also covers any possible lawsuits and loss of future earnings. The latter two would still need coverage, but at a reduced rate of the current system since the vast majority of claims require only medical coverages. And why would you need to make sure medical coverages are available to employees if EVERYONE is already covered?

A condescending, holier than thou liberal, I've never seen one of those before... :sarcasm

Thats funny Mr. Bigshot. You sure don't seem to have a fucking clue about how businesses are run to be a big businessman...

http://www.offtopicz.net/50245-obama-speech-kiddies-9.html#post1255224

Yet again, I don't know what country you live in where management is legally required to maximize profits but its not this one....

So you have no problem with the rationing of health care as long as it's economic based? As long as the high costs keep the dregs of humanity out of your doctors office, you're ok with it?

Not in the least. Not being able to acquire something because of the way the world works is one thing, while there's something inherently evil about having the means but being told you can't by some other human being.

We have more doctors and nurses per 1000 population than most industrial nations, yet you feel that we will need to ration health care if everyone is covered... you do realize that EVERYONE in the US can go to the hospital today and get treatment without any type of coverage or means to pay for the treatment, right?
You do realize that everyone IS getting health care whether they pay for it or not. That just by covering them it will not mean there will be more hospital visits, right?

Patently untrue. Drs. and hospitals are only required to provide LIFE SAVING care not all the myriad of other elective "life improving" procedures. Thats where the added cost and strain on the system are going to come in at.

Yet again, my wife is a Dr. and has worked in the ER. Most ERs now are moving to a real triage system where if you are not insured and not actually having a medical emergency, they boot your ass out the door.

But again, as it stands, you cannot go into the hospital and get just whatever elective treatment you want without having to pay. You only get life saving care.

I'll ask you a simple question. All the other socialized systems have rationing in some form or another. Under what mechanism do you think we'll be able to operate our system, control costs and not have rationing? I've explained the mechanisms of how the system works, now the burden of proof is on you to explain how you're going to get around them...

Now since like most liberals you think that because I don't want the gov't involved up to their eyeballs, I support raping babies and other such bullshit, here's my reform plan. Maybe just once I can get a liberal to look at it without running screaming from the room because it doesn't involve heavy gov't intervention.

1. Remove the employer tax break for health insurance and change it to a individual tax credit that people can use to get their own insurance. Right now, with employer based coverage, the employer and not the patient is the customer of the insurance company. Therefore the incentive is only to keep premiums low, now provide good service. Individual plans would make the patient the customer and provide incentive for good service and low price in conjuction with #5.

2. Culturally shift to catastraphic health insurance rather than insulation. $5k+ deductible. We don't insure cars or houses for basic maintenance, why should be insure ourselves that way. Basic health care should be covered under either #3 or #4...

3. Insititute a medical savings account similar to a 401(k) that people can pay into pre-tax and only draw out without penalty for health expenses. This allows people to build up a buffer of cash for health care that can grow year to year. People pay in when they're young and healthy and they've got a lot of money when they're old and sick. Options could go all the way down to an up limit FDIC insured account. Bottom line is individuals get to decide how their money is stashed, and what treatments are paid for, not an insurance company and not some gov't flunky...

4. Scrap medicare and medicaid and replace it with a single, effective, means tested subsidy program for anyone regardless of age. This should also have a provision to cover pre-existing conditions that would make insurance cost prohibitive but it would ONLY cover the pre-existing for the person. They would still have to buy their own insurance for other issues.

5. Deregulate insurance so plans can be offered nationally increasing competition.

Those 5 steps could cover everyone, even the indigent, keep medical decisions to between the dr and patient, cover everything from routine care to the catastrophic, drive down overall health care costs and not require us to dump extra billions into another gov't program thats bound to get FUBARed in short order.
 

retro

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When it comes down to it, I really doubt you'd be critiquing this if it was "your man" addressing the country.

What my response would or wouldn't have been in that situation (and I seriously doubt that situation will ever come to pass) isn't the point of this discussion though. The point of the discussion was how often Obama addresses the Nation on national prime-time television. You brought up Reagan, and I presented you with the fact that Obama has already addressed the Nation in eight months nearly half as many times as Reagan did in four years. So when presented with those facts, you throw out a red herring rather than comment on the facts given to you.
 

Minor Axis

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What my response would or wouldn't have been in that situation (and I seriously doubt that situation will ever come to pass) isn't the point of this discussion though. The point of the discussion was how often Obama addresses the Nation on national prime-time television. You brought up Reagan, and I presented you with the fact that Obama has already addressed the Nation in eight months nearly half as many times as Reagan did in four years. So when presented with those facts, you throw out a red herring rather than comment on the facts given to you.

When Reagan was pushing for tax cuts and spending cuts (although he did not bother to get the spending cuts done, and drove the deficit up substantially for the first time since the 60's) he was very active on the subject, addressing the nation and making speeches around the country.

Frankly, your gripe about this President addressing the nation too often is amusing and only gets traction from those intent on discrediting him and his agenda.
 

nova

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Frankly, your gripe about this President addressing the nation too often is amusing and only gets traction from those intent on discrediting him and his agenda.

Oh dear leader doesn't need any help discrediting himself and his agenda. His blatant "I think the american people are too stupid to realize" lies are doing that all too well...
 
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