Where can you build an Islamic center?

[The Man]

Since you've read 'enough' of the Qu'ran, I challenge you to find me where it says that thiefs have their hands cut off, and muslims who cease to practice are put to death. I look forward to this. I remind you I have a copy of the Qu'ran right here, and so any dodgy websites I can quickly disprove.

Secondly, that very link you gave me says the Qu'ran as it is today was written during Mohammed's life. The one they have in the egyptian musuem is from 688, 50 years after his death.
How can texts 500-600 years before the birth of Mohammed be considered the Qu'ran? They can't, is the answer.

You are claiming a museum is bluffing the world?:eek

So far as the hand being cut off

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/handcutting.htm

http://www.universalunity.net/Punishment_For_Theft.htm

http://islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=articles&id=136791

Death for leaving the faith

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos3.htm

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/08/i...n-the-quran-yes-it-is-sweet-little-rifqa.html


Now to get things in perspective
This does not happen in all nations in defense of Islam

However the problem exists in nations that are predominately islam...this demonstrates the the higher the muslim populations the more the book is followed.

Lets put it another way...how serious one is with religion...when one becomes a serious muslim and begins to follow the book rather than pick and choose what they want we have a problem,

Suadi Arabia is an example of strong muslim faith living by the Quran...I will use it as an example the way you cant rule it as a hole in the wall..its a huge nation.

Fact the other day..2 peoples head were cut off via sword for rape....this is hardly western style justice.

The taliban,,which was in control of Afghanistan lives by the Quran...this is a large group than controlled a nation.

Saddam and Iraq ...cut out people tounges cut off fingers beat people in the street..tossed people from buildings ....again the use of sharia law .

I use these three as examples as the are well know nations and the behavior of these nations are well known


People can argue and deny it doesnt happen..but the fact is it does...the same also happen in nations in Africa

 

[The Man]

I don't know how many ways you can be told and by how many people- The U.S. is a secular country that promotes freedom of religion. Islam is considered a mainstream religion. Islam is not equivalent to Shira Law any more than Christianity is equivalent to "stoning". Do we stone around here? No. Do we have religious based laws here? Well we used to but they seem to be going away regarding things like homosexual relationships and divorce. Although there are some energetic fundamentalist Americans who would love to see laws written based on their interpretation of the Bible, I really don't think that is going to happen. But using your logic it would be a good reason to ban Christianity right now, before they get their chance. No?

The alarm bells and revolution will start when some movement tries to turn this country into a theocracy. Then you will be banned for having any independent thinking.

I don't know how many ways you can be told and by how many people- The U.S. is a secular country that promotes freedom of religion

This is the first post regarding such...also you are stating I have said its not?...

The U.S. is a secular country that promotes freedom of religion

Correct..can you show me a post where someone has posted otherwise

Islam is considered a mainstream religion

True...but its not for the best...do we want to become the mid east?
Lets face it the muslims nations are not a pleasant way of life as we know it

Islam is not equivalent to Shira Law any more than Christianity is equivalent to "stoning"

Show me the last christian stoning in public that had cheering going on and was dished out by law.

Do we have religious based laws here

A little at a time yes
Amish no taxes
Jehovah witnesses will let a child die rather than give it blood..its called murder.
But the JW have laws to protect them.
No pork in many schools to appease the muslim religion

Although there are some energetic fundamentalist Americans who would love to see laws written based on their interpretation of the Bible

So how can you be in support of muslims using sharia?

 

[Zorak]

You are claiming a museum is bluffing the world?:eek

So far as the hand being cut off

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/handcutting.htm

http://www.universalunity.net/Punishment_For_Theft.htm

http://islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=articles&id=136791

Death for leaving the faith

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos3.htm

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/08/i...n-the-quran-yes-it-is-sweet-little-rifqa.html


Now to get things in perspective
This does not happen in all nations in defense of Islam

However the problem exists in nations that are predominately islam...this demonstrates the the higher the muslim populations the more the book is followed.

Lets put it another way...how serious one is with religion...when one becomes a serious muslim and begins to follow the book rather than pick and choose what they want we have a problem,

Suadi Arabia is an example of strong muslim faith living by the Quran...I will use it as an example the way you cant rule it as a hole in the wall..its a huge nation.

Fact the other day..2 peoples head were cut off via sword for rape....this is hardly western style justice.

The taliban,,which was in control of Afghanistan lives by the Quran...this is a large group than controlled a nation.

Saddam and Iraq ...cut out people tounges cut off fingers beat people in the street..tossed people from buildings ....again the use of sharia law .

I use these three as examples as the are well know nations and the behavior of these nations are well known


People can argue and deny it doesnt happen..but the fact is it does...the same also happen in nations in Africa

Do you deliberately misintepret and veer off into unrequested tangents?

Saddam didn't practice Sharia law by the way, he was a staunch secularist. He was just a nasty bastard.

 

[The Man]

Do you deliberately misintepret and veer off into unrequested tangents?

Saddam didn't practice Sharia law by the way, he was a staunch secularist. He was just a nasty bastard.

You asked for documentation ..I provided.now you claim its a tangent..
Are you claiming that entire muslim nations misinterpret the quran?
Lets say that is true for the sake of argument and they are misinterpreting it...we have a major problem as you have just stated the bulk of muslim nations misinterpret the quran....so how can you be in support of Islam while so many have it wrong?
What are you credentials to say they are wrong?
You propose say for example that Saudi arabia...which by the way lives by the quran...Has it all wrong?

 

[Zorak]

No, I never asked for such documentation. There was no need because everybody is aware of such. It does relate back to numerous peoples requests for you to make more fitting comparisons.

I questioned your implied relations between the Qu'ran and Sharia law, which are by no means mutually exclusive but neither are they inclusively correlated.

 

[The Man]

Maybe I'll put it to you this way...
In your country, a very money-motivated country...

In 2007, the Department of Defence received $161.8 billion for a "war on terror", that kills 70 Americans each year apparently.
Whereas, in this same country, 450,000 people die from coronary heart disease each year. In 2007, the same year, only $3 billion was donated towards this disease.

So, your country spent 54 times the amount on preventing something that kills barely any people than spending it on a disease that kills 6600 times more people?

Before 1980, Afghanistan produced 0% of the world's heroin supply. Since the US/CIA backed Mujahideen, by 1986, it rose to 40% of the world's heroin supply.
By 1999, they were producing 80% of the total market supply.
The Taliban rose to power. By 2000, production dropped 94% (3000 tons to 185 tons).
But, then since September 11, now 90% of the world's supply is produced, breaking new production records yearly.

Seems like the US just used the September 11 attack as an excuse to try and take control over them.
One irrational way of thinking I have learnt about is the whole 'in-group out-group' bias thing. If somebody who is NOT in your 'group', and they do something socially unacceptable, then you are more likely to think that that is a part of their enduring character or personality. Hence, people are against Muslims, and they did one bad thing, and now people think this is "so natural of them", and they think that Muslims are all inclined to be terrorists.
Also, it is consistency bias to believe that people do not change since one event. For example, if I did something stupid two years ago, it is 'inconsistent' to believe that I would be stupid enough to do the same thing again.

It is only a very small minority of the Islamic religion/fundamentalists maybe?..who believe that the biggest sacrifice for Allah is to kill people. They get brainwashed with the wrong interpretation of the Qur'an.
Generalising this to the whole religious population of Islam is wrong.
We shouldn't just send troops into their countries, shooting at everybody, hoping to solve the problem, and trying to gain control over whatever. They're not incapable people and I'm sure they could set things straight for themselves if the West just left them alone.

A terrorist is someone who goes against the system you live in. I suppose this could include those 'bomber' peoples, I mean, they set up a bomb in your country and blow stuff up, yeah, they hate your system. Why? Because it so money-orientated and you just have to look at the damage that has been caused by your country's military action and irrational thinking (I guess this is the same for Australia too, not that I support this). You live in a country where the way you live or the people who run it don't give a shit about its own people, believe it, or not. People think "Oh, my Government, they are authority, I trust them not to do stupid stuff", people think just cause some big head honcho is running something that they are so right. Well that's not the case I'm afraid. You can't just accept everything you read in the newspaper, media, TV watching, etc. Hence why all this terrorism stuff is propaganda.

I admit I am no expert on this topic, but hopefully you get a little insight

So by that token we should just not prosecute someone who does an arrned robbery and shoots the clerks as the cost of incarceration for the next 50 years will be to high?

Afganistan was under the taliban control ...you reflect the influence of heroin control upon this.
Your position on such throughout your paragraph shows support for the taliban.....you are aware they are muslims that live strictly by the faith and are considered terrorist by the majority of nations

As far as 911 being the only attack...false..it was the attack that broke the camels back.
The US did not start this war on terror alone it was global effort that had dozens of nations involved...troops from many nations went in.

No one is generalizing here ..but at the same time we can see that there is a problem with terrorists..I have shown that your country has kept many muslims out of your country.
The long list can hardly be described as a few..but rather large in fact.

No one went into any country and just started shooting people..the goal was to take out saddam and the taliban{which you seem to have some support for}.

The global effort is for everyone..especially the people in these nations..to stop them from living under the stupid rule of executions and hand chopping etc.

Propoganda?
Not at all
People get killed by terrorists everyday...the world is sick of it and rightly so/
The problem is they were growing in size...they are not a fad..but a problem that began to grow in large numbers daily

 

[The Man]

No, I never asked for such documentation. There was no need because everybody is aware of such. It does relate back to numerous peoples requests for you to make more fitting comparisons.

I questioned your implied relations between the Qu'ran and Sharia law, which are by no means mutually exclusive but neither are they inclusively correlated.

Quote by you

Since you've read 'enough' of the Qu'ran, I challenge you to find me where it says that thiefs have their hands cut off, and muslims who cease to practice are put to death. I look forward to this. I remind you I have a copy of the Qu'ran right here, and so any dodgy websites I can quickly disprove.

Secondly, that very link you gave me says the Qu'ran as it is today was written during Mohammed's life. The one they have in the egyptian musuem is from 688, 50 years after his death.
How can texts 500-600 years before the birth of Mohammed be considered the Qu'ran? They can't, is the answer.

You asked for documentation I provided...you now claim it wasnt needed because everyone already knew anyway. :24:

You now claim you were asking for comparisons......comparisons of what?.,,toss me a bone please

You questioned my implied relations to sharia law?...I have shown they exist in many nations.:eek
Are you now claiming that sharia law isnt practiced by muslims...oh wait I already proved that is.:eek
Are you claiming that sharia law isnt derived for the quran?...Wait I already proven that also.

Sharia law is mutually exclusive to the quran..as a matter of fact the name sharia is derived for the quran.
Are you sure you read it and have one in your possession?.
So far I have backed every claim I have made.....but you claim to be the one knowledgeable on the subject while claiming I cant back my claims

 

[Zorak]

I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood what has been requested of you, read again.

Edit: To be clearer, I requested Qu'ran doctrine on capital and similar punishment.

 

[Zorak]

Also, mutual exclusion is a non-relation, not a relation.

 

[BornReady]

This does not happen in all nations in defense of Islam

However the problem exists in nations that are predominately islam...this demonstrates the the higher the muslim populations the more the book is followed.

True...but [Islam is] not for the best...do we want to become the mid east?
Lets face it the muslims nations are not a pleasant way of life as we know it

That is bigotry when applied to Tennessee. Bigotry is a unfavorable preconceived opinion of someone. The Muslims in Tennessee are not a threat to anyone. Yet you would deny them an Islamic center based on fear of a preconceived idea. The idea that if the Mulsim population of Tennessee became a majority then Tennessee would become a violent place. You don't know that. In fact, I would argue against it. Christians there don't practice the offensive parts of the Bible even though they are in the majority now. If the good people of Tennessee convert to Islam then there is no reason to think they will start practicing the offensive parts of the Quran.

It's easy to be tolerant of people unlike yourself when they live a 1000 miles away. But let them try to build an Islamic center in your neighborhood and that's when your true colors show. I understand human nature but I won't make excuses for intolerance. It takes courage to fight bigotry but it is a worthwhile fight.

 

[The Man]

I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood what has been requested of you, read again.

Edit: To be clearer, I requested Qu'ran doctrine on capital and similar punishment.

You were provided everything asked for/your claims were also shown to be false
You are wasting my time..if you want to debate lets debate.
If you want to use red herring method of posting,I find it to be a mockery of the entire purpose of a discussion board

 

[Minor Axis]

TSo how can you be in support of muslims using sharia?

I'm 100% against Sharia Law, but you can't use that as an excuse to try to run Muslims out of the U.S. We don't function under Sharia Law and there would be a revolution before this would ever happen. And I'm against not recognizing Islam as a religion in good standing with all the rights other religions have. Citizens suing to prevent a particular kind of church from being built should not even be admitted into court. Hence we need some serious revamping of the U.S. court system in general. I like the idea of having a legal screening system to verify if a suit has merit or determine it is frivolous before it goes to trial.

 

[skyblue]

I know some religious people who are tolerant but it seems the majority are not. Everyone in my family is religious but me. The only tolerant ones in the bunch are my brother and sister-in-law. There are a few tolerant religious books out there. My favorite religious author is probably Bishop John Shelby Spong.



It seems so obvious.

that should be the other way around:nod:

 

[BornReady]

Citizens suing to prevent a particular kind of church from being built should not even be admitted into court. Hence we need some serious revamping of the U.S. court system in general.

Their attorney, Joe Brandon Jr., used an underhanded tactic. He sued on the grounds that the public had not been properly informed of the building plans before they were approved. Then once he got into court his true agenda came out. That is, Islam is not a recognized religion in the US and Sharia law equates to terrorism. The first statement is patently false and both are irrelevant. The Tennessee Muslims obey US law and all Americans are protected by the US constitution regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

 

[mazHur]

So you are promoting freedom of religion for the religions you believe in. Sharia law is based on a culture, (dominated by men btw) picking and choosing what they see in their Holy book and running/ruining their culture based on these choices. Fortunately one foundation of this country is separation of church and state. Although admittedly many of our laws have been based on Christian standards, we don't officially use the Bible as our legal rule book and won't every use it (despite fundamentalist attempts) until the Constitution is rewritten. I've been told the two Holy Books have about 75% overlap. Islam has just as much legitimacy as Christianity does. So lets disown Christianity while we are at it.

I would like to make some amends here...

it's true that the holy Quran contains a lot of things discussed in the holy Bible and Torah but is in no way the same or even equal to them to the extent you mentioned. The obvious difference between these is that the Quran states certain LAWS which go in the making of a Code of Life....it contains express commands regarding different matters of life such as inheritance, rights of men and women, orphans, widows, war, prayer, conduct towards others, mutual dealing, etc etc....

As for the construction of mosque at some place, I think there should not be any objection provided such construction fulfills the laws of that country. If any country which claims to be secular and democratic acts against its own laws and constitution then it leaves little reason to believe that that country is NOT what it claims to be!

 

[The Man]

I'm 100% against Sharia Law, but you can't use that as an excuse to try to run Muslims out of the U.S. We don't function under Sharia Law and there would be a revolution before this would ever happen. And I'm against not recognizing Islam as a religion in good standing with all the rights other religions have. Citizens suing to prevent a particular kind of church from being built should not even be admitted into court. Hence we need some serious revamping of the U.S. court system in general. I like the idea of having a legal screening system to verify if a suit has merit or determine it is frivolous before it goes to trial.

While you and I are against the support of sharia law...the majority of muslims support it
65 percent of Muslims seek strict application of sharia law
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are two data that blow out of the water the idea that most Muslims are "moderates," i.e., that most Muslims believe in Islam only as an individual religion, not as a political religion. Andrew Bostom writes:
Polling data just released (April 24, 2007) in a rigorously conducted face-to-face University of Maryland/ WorldPublicOpinion.org interview survey of 4384 Muslims conducted between December 9, 2006 and February 15, 2007--1000 Moroccans, 1000 Egyptians, 1243 Pakistanis, and 1141 Indonesians--reveal that 65.2% of those interviewed--almost 2/3, hardly a "fringe minority"--desired this outcome (i.e., "To unify all Islamic countries into a single Islamic state or Caliphate"), including 49% of "moderate" Indonesian Muslims. The internal validity of these data about the present longing for a Caliphate is strongly suggested by a concordant result: 65.5% of this Muslim sample approved the proposition "To require a strict [emphasis added] application of Shari'a law in every Islamic country."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yikes...mind you these are just the ones that admit it
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/007891.html

As you said a revolution would break..in many counties riots etc have broke out the muslims won and have areas that now have sharia law.
In reality you have to allow it if you are to allow the freedom to practice religion.
While the bible instructs one to obey the law of the land the quran states to follow the quran.
So in effect the Muslims have a legitimate stance...we cant allow this to happen

Sure it is a widely recognized religion...but the community in tennesse doesnt want it.
Islam is not harmonious with other religions/while other religions instruct you to be harmonious
Why? with mosques come more muslims with more muslims you are now an infidel in your own neighborhood.
Riots will happen in the future etc

 

[BornReady]

As for the construction of mosque at some place, I think there should not be any objection provided such construction fulfills the laws of that country. If any country which claims to be secular and democratic acts against its own laws and constitution then it leaves little reason to believe that that country is NOT what it claims to be!

:thumbup I was hoping you'd weigh in.

I am confident the Tennessee court will not act against the US Constitution. The Islamic center will be built.

I trust you will not judge all Americans by a few bigots.

 

[mazHur]

:thumbup I was hoping you'd weigh in.

I am confident the Tennessee court will not act against the US Constitution. The Islamic center will be built.

I trust you will not judge all Americans by a few bigots.

No, not at all! I have been to America a few times, my first trip there as far back as 1978 and the last one in 1986.

Americans as I know them are great people in a great county I did a lot of business with Americans and always found them unbiased and friendly.

There are bigots among Muslims too but for others--the moderate ones- Islam continues to be a Code of Life...
and frankly speaking THAT code is NOT applicable to the Western people ....because of some fundamental differences, ofcourse ethics and morals being common. These differences mainly relate to
1. Unity of God--There is NO God except God; apostasy is condemned and punishable.
2. Muhammad being the last prophet of Abrahmic lineage
3. Jesus IS a Prophet of God and still alive.
4 . Muslims, regardless of caste, creed and color, are all brothers.
5. Islam isn't meant for Muslims only but for the entire humanity. (this is in contrast with the Bible and Torah which were revealed for the benefit/correction of Christians and Jews only)
6. Idol worship is forbidden.
7. Hypocrisy is severely condemned;
8. Sexes are bound to stay ''at arms length''
9. Muslims are forbidden to talk ill of any other religion or its followers..
10 Belief in the Day of Judgment, you get what you sow, ie your deeds in this world matter for 'emancipation' in this as well as the other world, right of self-defence is allowed ( in a way you may call it Jihad)
etc etc

 

[mazHur]

While you and I are against the support of sharia law...the majority of muslims support it
65 percent of Muslims seek strict application of sharia law
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are two data that blow out of the water the idea that most Muslims are "moderates," i.e., that most Muslims believe in Islam only as an individual religion, not as a political religion. Andrew Bostom writes:
Polling data just released (April 24, 2007) in a rigorously conducted face-to-face University of Maryland/ WorldPublicOpinion.org interview survey of 4384 Muslims conducted between December 9, 2006 and February 15, 2007--1000 Moroccans, 1000 Egyptians, 1243 Pakistanis, and 1141 Indonesians--reveal that 65.2% of those interviewed--almost 2/3, hardly a "fringe minority"--desired this outcome (i.e., "To unify all Islamic countries into a single Islamic state or Caliphate"), including 49% of "moderate" Indonesian Muslims. The internal validity of these data about the present longing for a Caliphate is strongly suggested by a concordant result: 65.5% of this Muslim sample approved the proposition "To require a strict [emphasis added] application of Shari'a law in every Islamic country."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yikes...mind you these are just the ones that admit it
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/007891.html

As you said a revolution would break..in many counties riots etc have broke out the muslims won and have areas that now have sharia law.
In reality you have to allow it if you are to allow the freedom to practice religion.
While the bible instructs one to obey the law of the land the quran states to follow the quran.
So in effect the Muslims have a legitimate stance...we cant allow this to happen

Sure it is a widely recognized religion...but the community in tennesse doesnt want it.
Islam is not harmonious with other religions/while other religions instruct you to be harmonious
Why? with mosques come more muslims with more muslims you are now an infidel in your own neighborhood.
Riots will happen in the future etc

The colonial British were smart enough not to interfere in religious matters of others...and thus they ruled over the world with minimal effort.
Remember Young of Utah?? the Mormons??? What came out meddling with their religion??
The Mormons are still flourishing and even I have their Book of Mormons in my shelf

Those who don't feel they can withstand religious tolerance ought to fight their case in the parliament/congress or modify their constitution to ban the construction of the mosque or a Hindu mandir or a Sikh Gurdwaara. But this doesn't seem to be possible and mere grumbling over the facts will turn out no turnips!

Sharia as I have said many times is NOT one with different sects of Muslims....who themselves are at loggerhead with one another. Moreover, there is no chance of sharia coming to America or the West and all such apprehensions are phobic and ill-founded ... Why we forget that in a secular democracy it is the majority which makes laws....and if there happens to be Muslim majority in some place you can then expect Sharia or total chaos and anarchy!!

 

[mazHur]

Anti-Muslim crusaders make millions spreading fear


http://www.tennessean.com/article/20101024/NEWS01/10240374/The+price+of+fear
First of Two Parts

Steven Emerson has 3,390,000 reasons to fear Muslims.
That's how many dollars Emerson's for-profit company — Washington-based SAE Productions — collected in 2008 for researching alleged ties between American Muslims and overseas terrorism. The payment came from the Investigative Project on Terrorism Foundation, a nonprofit charity Emerson also founded, which solicits money by telling donors they're in imminent danger from Muslims.


Emerson is a leading member of a multimillion-dollar industry of self-proclaimed experts who spread hate toward Muslims in books and movies, on websites and through speaking appearances.
Leaders of the so-called "anti-jihad" movement portray themselves as patriots, defending America against radical Islam. And they've found an eager audience in ultra-conservative Christians and mosque opponents in Middle Tennessee. One national consultant testified in an ongoing lawsuit aimed at stopping a new Murfreesboro mosque.