Ways to prove God is imaginary

[pladecalvo]

Incidentally Jesus clearly stated that Noah's flood was an historical fact if this account of his words is true (seeing as the flood has become an issue of debate):

The story of the flood was filched by Christianity from the Sumerian "Epic of Gilgamesh" c3500 BCE.

....if a tree fell in a forest with nobody around to hear it...would it still make a noise??? hmmmm

Yes!!

 

[Minor Axis]

An interesting alternative to consider in this kind of debate is the Gnostic concept of God.

Gnosticism existed around the same time as early Christianity and is making a small resurgence recently. It is a system which retains Jesus Christ as the saviour but makes a very clear distinction between what WE generally think of as God (the Abrahamic God) and the actual highest powers.

In Gnosticism "Jehovah" is fundamentally flawed, inferior to God, and either evil or insane, or both. The true God is neither male nor female, has no element of personality we can conceptualise, and has no interest in human affairs period. Humans in this religion are prisoners in matter.

A god who works against us actively is more logically coherent from some angles so I thought I'd bring it up as a counter-argument to the patently illogical concept of the "omni-everything" god which does not necessarily disprove his existence, just a possible flaw in our concept of god.

Gnostic concepts are prevalent in The Matrix films, but are not implemented very accurately. The premise of the films bears some superficial resemblence to Gnostic concepts, with Neo as Christ and The Architect as Jehovah.

NB - A lot of Gnostics consider themsleves Christians and I do not purport to know the true name of God when I mention Jehovah - it is just the most common name ascribed to him in the Gnostic systems when relating him to non-Gnostics.

Hey, you forgot to include a link so here. I've got to read this a couple more times to understand it. In your post I do find the concept of a God who has no interest in human affairs to be interesting, as I lean towards thinking if there is an intelligent God he is not a hands on God. See this thread.

 

[Andre]

The story of the flood was filched by Christianity from the Sumerian "Epic of Gilgamesh" c3500 BCE.

I must point out that I was not implying that it would be historical fact BECAUSE Jesus said it - merely that he presented it as such. There are many flood stories outside of the bible which share similar qualities, so it is likely to have been filched as you say. Thanks for the example - I'll check that out later.

Hey, you forgot to include a link so here. I've got to read this a couple more times to understand it. In your post I do find the concept of a God who has no interest in human affairs to be interesting, as I lean towards thinking if there is an intelligent God he is not a hands on God. See this thread.

Thanks for the link Minor Axis. The Wiki page is in much better shape than it was last time I saw it. I wasn't sure anyone would actually be interested enough to read any further but I have been pleasantly surpised.

To get the information from the perspective of a Gnostic practitioner, this is a good intro: The Gnostic World View: A Brief Summary of Gnosticism

gnosis.org also has a very extensive library online: Gnostic Society Library: Sources on Gnosticism and Gnosis

I will have a good look over your "Is God Hands On?" thread throughout the day. It's a very good question. Unfortunately I'm currently doing a lot of things at once haha.

 

[Minor Axis]

I must point out that I was not implying that it would be historical fact BECAUSE Jesus said it - merely that he presented it as such. There are many flood stories outside of the bible which share similar qualities, so it is likely to have been filched as you say. Thanks for the example - I'll check that out later.

Thanks for the link Minor Axis. The Wiki page is in much better shape than it was last time I saw it. I wasn't sure anyone would actually be interested enough to read any further but I have been pleasantly surpised.

To get the information from the perspective of a Gnostic practitioner, this is a good intro: The Gnostic World View: A Brief Summary of Gnosticism

gnosis.org also has a very extensive library online: Gnostic Society Library: Sources on Gnosticism and Gnosis

I will have a good look over your "Is God Hands On?" thread throughout the day. It's a very good question. Unfortunately I'm currently doing a lot of things at once haha.

Very good. Thanks for the other leeds.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Science need not come into play when reading history.
People attack the Bible, yet it is still alive and pumping.
If people question history books the way they questioned the Bible, our history books would not survive.
Yet the Word of God is surviving and thriving whether folks want to admit to it or not.
There is a reason why it is surviving too.

500 tokens for the person that can find the correct Bible verse which provides the answer.

Our society flounders because we are a floundering people. We will not accept a stable and absolute truth - instead we accept a truth that is unsure and always changing ... always floundering ... thus a floundering society. People will continue to search for rest within their souls; something unwavering, something stable, something that makes them whole, thus God's Word will never disappear. It has nothing to do with fear. Fear does not bring about lasting change and life. Fear as spoken of in the Bible meaning a healthy and awe inspiring reverence for the Lord in most contexts inspires love that brings about lasting change and life.

There is no more creditability for history books than there is for the Bible. Jesus destroys lies of this world and he heals hearts and restores life. There is no circumstance in life where God's truth is not needed.

Many don't get the Bible because they do not understand paradoxes and thus they miss the lessons.

And the verse I had on my mind was:
Psalms 119:89
Your word O LORD is eternal

 

[dt3]

Our society flounders because we are a floundering people. We will not accept a stable and absolute truth - instead we accept a truth that is unsure and always changing ... always floundering ... thus a floundering society. People will continue to search for rest within their souls; something unwavering, something stable, something that makes them whole, thus God's Word will never disappear. It has nothing to do with fear. Fear does not bring about lasting change and life. Fear as spoken of in the Bible meaning a healthy and awe inspiring reverence for the Lord in most contexts inspires love that brings about lasting change and life.

There is no more creditability for history books than there is for the Bible. Jesus destroys lies of this world and he heals hearts and restores life. There is no circumstance in life where God's truth is not needed.

Many don't get the Bible because they do not understand paradoxes and thus they miss the lessons.

And the verse I had on my mind was:
Psalms 119:89
Your word O LORD is eternal

You know I love ya Gracie, but I think it's asinine to assume non-religious people don't have inner peace :dunno

 

[GraceAbounds]

You know I love ya Gracie, but I think it's asinine to assume non-religious people don't have inner peace :dunno

I don't think that non-religious people can't have inner peace. :dunno

 

[Andre]

People will continue to search for rest within their souls; something unwavering, something stable, something that makes them whole, thus God's Word will never disappear.

It has nothing to do with fear.

Many don't get the Bible because they do not understand paradoxes and thus they miss the lessons.

How is something full of paradoxes which are beyond some people's comprehension stable and unwavering?

You already mentioned in this thread that if it were logically impossible for the flood to have covered the entire Earth we should perhaps look to interpret the scripture differently - in terms that the people of the time would have conceived things in.

It's opening up a brand new can of worms to suggest that scripture is eternal, and yet subject to interpretation based on the contemporary ideas at the time of writing. I am NOT suggesting you are wrong, but from where I sit that undermines the stability of scripture which you mentioned.

I think you'll find it has a lot to do with fear as well. Less so now than in the past for sure, but fear is a component for many believers without a doubt!

Do you believe in the infallibility of scripture out of interest? If you don't object to the question. I would assume that you do.

 

[Peter Parka]

There is no more creditability for history books than there is for the Bible.
l

Depends what history books you are referring too. The Bible is useful as a historical document but also inaccurate and badly written in a lot of ways. The way chapter upon chapter gives how so and so was begot by o and so is very poorly written even if it is right.Most of what we know about William Wallace for instance comes from the poetic ramblings of a blind minstral, dosen't mean it's wrong but dosent by any means mean it's right either but it does give us something to piece together, a lot like the Bible. The Bible has been proved remarkably right (historically) in some ways, long before its time but in a lot of others ways it has been proved dismally wrong. Just because the Bible says something dosent by a long shot mean its right (in a scientific or historical way)

 

[pladecalvo]

Our society flounders because we are a floundering people. We will not accept a stable and absolute truth - instead we accept a truth that is unsure and always changing ...

IMO, when religious people say that they are "searching for the truth" it is evident that 'truth' is not among their criteria. The only 'truth' they will accept is that which supports their a priori idea of what is true. Their agenda is to pursue anything which might offer some hope of support for beliefs they have already adopted as "true". They are unwilling to accept any "truth" which demonstrates to the contrary of what they believe. First they decide what truth is and then they reject anything that doesn't fit in with their idea of "truth". That which shows their beliefs to be wrong, they reject, even when it is true. That's not a search for truth; it's a search for self-validation.

Probably haven't explained that very well but it's still a little early here!! :willy_nilly:

There is no more creditability for history books than there is for the Bible.

You are joking of course??

Many don't get the Bible because they do not understand paradoxes and thus they miss the lessons.

Don't you think that if this god gave the world a book that we were supposed to believe in it would have made more sense to have made it easier to understand. Why the need for all the "interpretation", the hidden meanings, the parables, the paradoxes? Why not make it easy to understand....surely not a difficult thing for an allegedly omnimax deity!! We all to often hear Christians saying:

"One needs to understand the proper perspective needed to read and comprehend scripture."

..the translation of which is:

The “proper perspective” (and “interpretation”) allows a Christian to do whatever he wants, no matter how contrary to “the word of god”, as long as he can somehow warp something in the bible to make it seem to support his view.

........I think it's asinine to assume non-religious people don't have inner peace

Well said!

How is something full of paradoxes which are beyond some people's comprehension stable and unwavering?

Bravo!

 

[Andre]

They are unwilling to accept any "truth" which demonstrates to the contrary of what they believe.

That's not a search for truth; it's a search for self-validation.

Don't you think that if this god gave the world a book that we were supposed to believe in it would have made more sense to have made it easier to understand. Why the need for all the "interpretation", the hidden meanings, the parables, the paradoxes? Why not make it easy to understand....surely not a difficult thing for an allegedly omnimax deity!!

I think you put that very well.

The documentation is confusing and you have to rely on the often conflicting advice of other users as your only form of support.

Such poor customer service is below the standard I would expect from even a mediocre deity who had our best interests at heart.

 

[pladecalvo]

The documentation is confusing and you have to rely on the often conflicting advice of other users as your only form of support.

Such poor customer service is below the standard I would expect from even a mediocre deity who had our best interests at heart.

Agreed! People pick up texts all the time and just read them. Unlike the Bible, they don't have too have a list of 'rules' for reading them. Understanding the language you're reading is sufficient. That's the whole point of language; you don't have to re-learn the communications methods for every message. People only try to come up with such rules for reading a document when they're attempting to evade what the document says. Such tactics don't lead to more accurate understanding. They lead to an evasion of understanding.

 

[Andre]

Agreed! People pick up texts all the time and just read them. Unlike the Bible, they don't have too have a list of 'rules' for reading them. Understanding the language you're reading is sufficient. That's the whole point of language; you don't have to re-learn the communications methods for every message. People only try to come up with such rules for reading a document when they're attempting to evade what the document says. Such tactics don't lead to more accurate understanding. They lead to an evasion of understanding.

I don't want to start monopolising this thread but I can provide a concrete and tragic example.

"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." Matthew 5:29 (NIV)

I met and talked with a young man in 2004 who LITERALLY took out his own eye in obedience to these purported words of Jesus as contained in every bible. Outrageous? Of course, but who do Christians think they are to contradict this commandment by saying, "he didn't REALLY mean for you to do that buddy!" The NEED for re-interpretation undermines the book so obviously, as illustrated by this absurd example.

 

[sharpies]

That's the whole point of language; you don't have to re-learn the communications methods for every message.

Even a non bible toting atheist like me has to step in on this one. The bible is a collection of books written over several hundred years by a number of people with differing points of views & agendas - even if those viewpoints & agendas are as innocent as telling what they believe to be true. Some of the stories were written a long time after the death of the author, who passed them along in oral form. It was written in a language that is virtually dead today & has been translated by various people before the so called standard King James version - 1500 years or so.

Seriously apply this chinese whispers history to any document & I doubt it will make any sense. So I think that a nearly 2000 year old document that has such a history, & still people find relevance in it today, is fascinating & quite formidable.

I also believe that this is a reason why it needs such scrutinisation & why people should look at it in view of the last 2000 years of discoveries. The other reason it demands such scrutinisation is because no other book has at it's heart the beginnings of three different branches of supernatural beliefs that have almost constantly been at war, or on the brink of war, for thousands of years. If the latest Harry Potter book caused the death of 4000 people in a major American city, do you still think it would be on sale?

Allan

 

[pladecalvo]

I met and talked with a young man in 2004 who LITERALLY took out his own eye in obedience to these purported words of Jesus as contained in every bible. Outrageous? Of course, but who do Christians think they are to contradict this commandment by saying, "he didn't REALLY mean for you to do that buddy!" The NEED for re-interpretation undermines the book so obviously, as illustrated by this absurd example.

Incredible!! Still, I suppose that at least he can call himself a true Christian, unlike the pseudo-Christians who claim to be......until they find something in their Bibles that they don't like, such as giving away all their possessions and dosh to anyone that asks for them! Of course, these so called 'Christians' love their possessions just as much as the rest of us...... so, because 'giving away everything to those who ask' is not convenient for them, they don't bother to follow what their man-god told them to do. Instead....they scour their Bibles for something that tells them they will fail at being a "true Christian" and then say that as they are going to fail anyway......and Jesus knew that they would fail......then failing to do what the man-god said they should do is OK...... or they'll put their own 'personal' interpretation on the scripture and claim "it doesn't mean that" and then give the scripture a little twist until it says what they want it to say.

I like what Susan Brownell Anthony said:

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."

 

[Minor Axis]

I don't want to start monopolising this thread but I can provide a concrete and tragic example.

"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." Matthew 5:29 (NIV)

I met and talked with a young man in 2004 who LITERALLY took out his own eye in obedience to these purported words of Jesus as contained in every bible. Outrageous? Of course, but who do Christians think they are to contradict this commandment by saying, "he didn't REALLY mean for you to do that buddy!" The NEED for re-interpretation undermines the book so obviously, as illustrated by this absurd example.

Astounding and a great example of what is wrong with taking the Bible as anything more than a book of stories. When trying to live your life by its standards, no wonder it takes so many preachers up on the pulpit interpreting this mysterious book for the flock. BTW, why would your "right" eye be more disposed to sin, then your left eye? I must think about that. <- notice my right eye is winking too!

Our society flounders because we are a floundering people. We will not accept a stable and absolute truth - instead we accept a truth that is unsure and always changing ... always floundering ... thus a floundering society.

No offense intend but this is another variation of the poor lost souls speech.

There is no more creditability for history books than there is for the Bible.

I can agree with this, as most of us should know that history is written by the winners. But then the Bible is just a book written by man. Individuals have to decide how valid it is.