Violence in Movies

[Minor Axis]

these deranged individuals would be committing violent acts regardless, you can't blame what they're watching on TV.

I agree. But I also agree that a young child if he sees Moe hit Curly on the head with a hammer, might try it on a sibling, just because they don't realize they could actually hurt someone. Children must be taught. Is this a reason to ban violence in movies? No, otherwise every story that depicts violence will be banned including books. That is a non-starter for me. How would you enjoy Star Wars?

 

[edgray]

Now Ed will just say that your parents behavior conditioned you to behave differently.

And Retro will as usual add nothing to the debate at hand and simply make some snide remarks.

 

[dkwrtw]

lol oh shit, ya know I try to leave personal attacks and insults out of a debate, that's not a real debate that's just petty name calling and such, it's why I don't frequent the debate section seems sooner or later it always degrades into a yelling match, I am all for debate, but I despise bickering lol.

 

[edgray]

lol oh shit, ya know I try to leave personal attacks and insults out of a debate, that's not a real debate that's just petty name calling and such, it's why I don't frequent the debate section seems sooner or later it always degrades into a yelling match, I am all for debate, but I despise bickering lol.

that's exactly why you should join in more often - you get used to it!

 

[retro]

And Retro will as usual add nothing to the debate at hand and simply make some snide remarks.

Yes, because that's what I always do.... sure. :clap

There was nothing snide about what I said, I was merely observing that you have been known to spin things like that before. There are plenty of snide remarks that I could have, but chose not to make. Anyone with half a brain could've seen that your original statement was set up perfectly to be able to turn it around and spin it back to your point regardless of the response given. I merely chose to point it out publicly.

So, let's not make this a personal issue now and instead focus on the actual discussion at hand here.

 

[dkwrtw]

that's exactly why you should join in more often - you get used to it!

I don't want to "get used to it" I enjoy debating but that is not a legitimate debate, that's what children do when they disagree with eachother, not grown men.

 

[edgray]

Yes, because that's what I always do.... sure. :clap

There was nothing snide about what I said, I was merely observing that you have been known to spin things like that before. There are plenty of snide remarks that I could have, but chose not to make. Anyone with half a brain could've seen that your original statement was set up perfectly to be able to turn it around and spin it back to your point regardless of the response given. I merely chose to point it out publicly.

So, let's not make this a personal issue now and instead focus on the actual discussion at hand here.

That's right, I always spin. Now how is that NOT a dig?

Anyway, let's start by looking at what I'd said about environmental conditioning:

Take an example of the differences between the US & UK.

In Britain, our right-wing politicians are your left-wing or centrist politicians. This isn't something that's thought about, it's simply the way we were all raised. What you guys call extreme left-wing politicians over in Europe are considered centrist, like Obama, for example.

This is due to our environmental conditioning. It's nothing talked about, or thought about, nothing discussed, just the result of our societies upon us. We have a different outlook, and it's nothing to do with our genes, or our conscious thought, it's just the nature of our environments.

The point being, that if you had been raised in the rain forrest, you would share that society's basic sets of beliefs. You would speak their language, for example, you would enjoy the local food, you would enjoy the local music and the local stories. Your society would build your reference points upon which your own personal opinions are based.

There's no doubt humans are learning creatures. We learn by observation, so whatever we see around us is going to affect us in one way or another.

To me, that's the only way to explain the phenomena explained above. Genetics or free will, I'm afraid, doesn't cut it.

I should point out that environmental conditioning isn't the same as TV violence = real violence. I personally do not see the connection, and concur with the British studies into the subject - I find seeing violence a massive turn-off.

 

[edgray]

I don't want to "get used to it" I enjoy debating but that is not a legitimate debate, that's what children do when they disagree with eachother, not grown men.

in this part of the forum there's not much difference sometimes, I'm afraid.

 

[dkwrtw]

There is a difference Ed, you can choose not to engage in petty name calling matches if you want, just because other people are choosing to behave like assholes doesn't mean that you have to do the same, that actually goes back to what we were talking about, you are letting yourself be influenced by your environment, whilst I am choosing not to, you see what I mean, it's all about choice, nobody makes you engage in bickering.

 

[retro]

That's right, I always spin. Now how is that NOT a dig?

Anyway, let's start by looking at what I'd said about environmental conditioning:

Now now Ed, I never said always. You're putting words in my mouth again I said that you've been known to, which would imply that you have done it before, not that you do every time.

There's no doubt humans are learning creatures. We learn by observation, so whatever we see around us is going to affect us in one way or another.

To me, that's the only way to explain the phenomena explained above. Genetics or free will, I'm afraid, doesn't cut it.

I should point out that environmental conditioning isn't the same as TV violence = real violence. I personally do not see the connection, and concur with the British studies into the subject - I find seeing violence a massive turn-off.

I don't disagree that there is such a thing as environmental conditioning, but at the same time you have to consider the scope of said conditioning. I'd say that I've been conditioned that taking a shower every day is a good and hygienic thing to do. The same goes with brushing my teeth, wearing matching clothes when I go out, exercising proper manners when I am out in public, and the list can go on and on. Those are learned behaviors based on environmental conditioning. I've been taught these things based on what my parents have told me, what I've read in books, and what I've seen on television.

Compare and contrast that with violent video games and movies. There are people that are predisposed toward mental instabilities, and these violent movies, television shows, or games can show them how they could act out on their feelings based on the instabilities they suffer from. However, we are all responsible for our own actions, mental instabilities or not. You can't blame violent behavior by people on violence in our popular culture, we are all responsible for our own actions. Sure, the violence can effect certain people negatively, but those people could just as easily be effected similarly by reading a violent novel, seeing a nasty argument between two people out on the street, or something of a similar nature.

Violence in movies or other popular culture cannot be blamed for violence acted out by people. We all have choices, those choices might be more difficult for some people to make, but they're there just the same.

 

[Boomer]

I was just reading reviews for one of my personal favorite Horror Films and one person had this to say about it:


"I'm honestly convinced that this is the type of trash that causes mentally unstable and/or easily influenced people to go berserk and do all sorts of crazy stuff."


And it got me thinking, do any of you guys think there's any truth to that statement, can violence in movies/television/Video Games really be blamed for the actions of these maniacs? I personally think that we're all responsible for our own actions and that to blame the media or the parents or society or anything else for these actions is just an excuse to alleviate personal responsibility, I'm curious, what do you guys think about this?

I'll blame parenting before I ever blame a movie or music.

 

[dkwrtw]

I'll blame parenting before I ever blame a movie or music.

I don't think the parents can be blamed either, IMHO all responsibility falls on the individual, we need to stop looking for others to blame and punish the people who are actually responsible for the crime, not the parents of the criminal and certainly not the entertainment industry.

 

[Boomer]

I feel you. I'm just sayin. Movies and music hold no grounds on ones behavior if there are parents to ground people when they're growing up. I mean, honestly, your upbringing has alooooooooot to do with your morals, beliefs and lifestyle. Granted it can be changed, but that shit does in fact matter.

 

[dkwrtw]

I honestly don't think it does have much to do with it, like what we were saying earlier, my father raised me as a christian, as soon as I was old enough to be able to read and understand what I was reading in the bible I determined for myself that it was wrong, and it wasn't just rejecting the beliefs just for the sake of rejecting them or "rebelling" or whatever you want to call it, I read it and just found the things it was saying to be utterly ridiculous, I am nothing like what I was brought up to be, I watched Violent films, played violent videogames constantly and my parents never cared or grounded me, yet even without parental intervention I have still never enacted any of the violence in real life that I've seen in the movies.

 

[edgray]

Now now Ed, I never said always. You're putting words in my mouth again I said that you've been known to, which would imply that you have done it before, not that you do every time.

Given that you ALWAYS react with a comment like the one before i've even typed anything, adding an "always" makes no difference whatsoever. Making comments like that is just a way to get the first blow in and you know it.

And it's "spin" only in your eyes, because you normally disagree with me. I have never leveled any empty categorisations, and lets face it, that's a VERY empty categorisation, at your posts like that. Would be nice to be given the same courtesy.

I don't disagree that there is such a thing as environmental conditioning, but at the same time you have to consider the scope of said conditioning. I'd say that I've been conditioned that taking a shower every day is a good and hygienic thing to do. The same goes with brushing my teeth, wearing matching clothes when I go out, exercising proper manners when I am out in public, and the list can go on and on. Those are learned behaviors based on environmental conditioning. I've been taught these things based on what my parents have told me, what I've read in books, and what I've seen on television.

agreed.

Compare and contrast that with violent video games and movies. There are people that are predisposed toward mental instabilities, and these violent movies, television shows, or games can show them how they could act out on their feelings based on the instabilities they suffer from. However, we are all responsible for our own actions, mental instabilities or not. You can't blame violent behavior by people on violence in our popular culture, we are all responsible for our own actions. Sure, the violence can effect certain people negatively, but those people could just as easily be effected similarly by reading a violent novel, seeing a nasty argument between two people out on the street, or something of a similar nature.

agreed.

Violence in movies or other popular culture cannot be blamed for violence acted out by people. We all have choices, those choices might be more difficult for some people to make, but they're there just the same.

Of course the choices are there. But not everything done in life is a conscious choice. In reality, how many conscious choices do you think you make in a day? Have you ever counted? It would be an interesting thing to do because I would put money that it's a lot less than we'd think it is.

And that's where environmental conditioning comes into play. This is a process that bypasses rational thought, free will if you like, and reacts for us.

A good example is how people deal with disagreements.

I used to live in this place called Portsmouth, in the south of England. A dump, with over 30% unemployment, and filled with some of the nastiest pieces of work you're ever likely to see.

I saw many, many reasons why the violent nature of Portsmouth was the way it was. This wasn't down to genetics or free will, the people there simply didn't have to tools to deal with certain situations in any other way but with violence.

Anyway, whilst living there I saw things like parents verbally assaulting shop staff over incredibly minor disagreements, right in front of their kids. These kids learn how to deal with things by watching their folks. And what they were learning was an aggressive reaction to every conceivable disagreement.

This is why in anger management classes they're told to stop and think, because normally thats something that none of us do. Conscious thought isn't something that's switched on all the time. Most of the time we're no different from animals, playing out set procedures with our given personality frameworks. The victim of a violent attack, for example, isn't making conscious choices any more than the attacker.

So, if we're all reacting to just our conditioning, rather than our conscious thoughts, some of the responsibility must be placed at the hands of those that did the conditioning, be it parents, teachers, friends, or the other million influences that can affect a child's development?

By the way, I don't in any way think that this excuses any kind of bad or violent behaviour, I just think it's helpful to understand that everything has a cause, therefore everything has a solution.

 

[edgray]

There is a difference Ed, you can choose not to engage in petty name calling matches if you want, just because other people are choosing to behave like assholes doesn't mean that you have to do the same, that actually goes back to what we were talking about, you are letting yourself be influenced by your environment, whilst I am choosing not to, you see what I mean, it's all about choice, nobody makes you engage in bickering.

I think my statement above covers this.

 

[dkwrtw]

Again I disagree with you, if someone is verbally assaulting a shopkeeper their mouth isn't just moving on it's own, they are consciously choosing to do this and every word that comes out of their mouth could easily have not been said, it is easy, EASY to keep one's impulses under control if they want to, it's not that people CAN'T HELP what they're saying and doing it's that they are choosing not to, they are choosing to go off on a shopkeeper, they are choosing to react with violence when they don't have to, to say that people don't have the "tools" to react in any other way is just utter horse shit, there is always a choice. I have never in my life struck or attacked another human being on impulse, every punch I've ever thrown and every violent act I've ever committed have been fully thought out and premeditated, one would have to be VERY weak minded to simply attack somebody over a disagreement, that has nothing to do with how they were brought up or what they saw on television that day, people who react that way(unconsciously, without thinking about it) are Mentally unstable and cannot function in society.

 

[edgray]

Again I disagree with you, if someone is verbally assaulting a shopkeeper their mouth isn't just moving on it's own, they are consciously choosing to do this and every word that comes out of their mouth could easily have not been said, it is easy, EASY to keep one's impulses under control if they want to, it's not that people CAN'T HELP what they're saying and doing it's that they are choosing not to, they are choosing to go off on a shopkeeper, they are choosing to react with violence when they don't have to, to say that people don't have the "tools" to react in any other way is just utter horse shit, there is always a choice. I have never in my life struck or attacked another human being on impulse, every punch I've ever thrown and every violent act I've ever committed have been fully thought out and premeditated, one would have to be VERY weak minded to simply attack somebody over a disagreement, that has nothing to do with how they were brought up or what they saw on television that day, people who react that way(unconsciously, without thinking about it) are Mentally unstable and cannot function in society.

So you can honestly tell me that every time you've ever been in an argument in your life you're thinking clearly, consciously and rationally?

 

[dkwrtw]

So you can honestly tell me that every time you've ever been in an argument in your life you're thinking clearly, consciously and rationally?

yes I think I can honestly say that, I may have said things that I didn't actually mean in order to hurt somebody but my words have been consciously chosen, I've never "not known" what I was saying to somebody or attacked them on impulse, is it so strange to you that a person could keep a level head in a stressful situation?

 

[Tuffdisc]

While I don't agree with the report, I do believe there is an unrealistic level of violence in movies these days. I don't like too many rom coms, because I think they are cheesy