Unions WIN!!

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Joe the meek

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We dont need unions....we have labor laws for safety, wages, and slave hours.
The govt is in a way a "union" protecting the workforce from abuse.

I wouldn't trust the government.

I'm also fully aware of the abuse of companies that started the labor movment to begin with.

Coal mining in the east in one of many prime examples of the abuse of power that lead to unionization.
 
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The Man

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When the last union is busted TM, whatever it is you do for a living you will do it for less. Corporations have been lobbying to weaken unions ever since day one of the NRLA. We have all the labor and worker safety laws BECAUSE of unions. Corporations lobby EVERY DAY to rescind environmental and worker safety laws, yet you say we don't need unions? Really?

Wages in the United States are stagnated at 1978 levels as a direct result of union busting. A tiny percentage of the workforce is unionized today, but you listen to idiots on FOX et al tell you this tiny percentage of the workforce is the cause of 100% of our problems. That's just more proof that right wingers have surrendered their ablity to think for themselves.

You hate union wages and working conditions TM? Go to work for Walmart - that's your conservotard utopia in action.

While unions may have been a blessing in early history and set forth labor laws...they have outlived their usefulness.
Walmart is actually union I believe John.

But lets get back to unions and them forcing themselves in {as that is what they do}
Lets say you had a crew of 10 john...you paid them 15 bucks an hour..they were happy ..turnover was low..people showed up and you didnt have to shuffle work as a result.
Some dick comes around and ruins your employees with union talk...They win as your employees threaten to leave..you cant afford to lose a customer base and train new employees.
You no longer control your own company john..you dont set forth wages benefits job duties...its the prick next door..you built your company on sweat and gamble..not the guy next door.
You now have to pay your guys 30 bucks an hour plus benefits...lets say 50 bucks an hour...you are no longer able to be competitive with your pricing as a result...client count goes down...but you are still stuck with the same excessive workforce as you cant lay em off or fire em..as they will receive 90 percent of wages plus benefits...Now granted thats not true in every case....but it does show what happens.

Its your company john..not the unions..you should be able to run it your way as long as it is within the law.
A private entity has no right controlling another private entity.
The union is out to line their own pocket...the more workers at a company the more dues they receive.
The more money a company has the more they push...as they receive more dues.
If the fuckers really cared john they would be non profit organizations....but the fact is they are driven merely by greed.
They see a prospering company and make a move ....does a union ever push to form on a company just getting by?...no they form while they are doing well.
Remember John one can do his own negotiations with his employer...its best to do it while you are getting hired not after.
With a union in the way...you may actually stop yourself from advancing in a company later.{after}
If nothing else at least you arent paying dues to a third party..money you can be putting in your own pocket.
Something many people seem to forget is one can always talk their employer about wages etc and get that raise or a different position.
 

The Man

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I wouldn't trust the government.

I'm also fully aware of the abuse of companies that started the labor movment to begin with.

Coal mining in the east in one of many prime examples of the abuse of power that lead to unionization.
No one is forcing one to work in a coal mine.
Here it is strip mining ...where unions are involved its stupid...I have seen machines just sit as they cant be moved.
Cant sneak off fifty yard to go piss for example.

Safety laws are made by the govt...the union cant legally enforce anything.
Sure they can push for laws.

One thing people seem to be overlooking here..it that unions never actually form to help/ in the actual overworked and underpaid jobs to begin with....there is no due money to be made.
They always form at place that have decent wages and the company is growing.
They dont care about the person they represent..its all about money.
In other words where they form are actually the last place they would be needed
 

Joe the meek

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No one is forcing one to work in a coal mine.
Here it is strip mining ...where unions are involved its stupid...I have seen machines just sit as they cant be moved.
Cant sneak off fifty yard to go piss for example.

Safety laws are made by the govt...the union cant legally enforce anything.
Sure they can push for laws.

One thing people seem to be overlooking here..it that unions never actually form to help/ in the actual overworked and underpaid jobs to begin with....there is no due money to be made.
They always form at place that have decent wages and the company is growing.
They dont care about the person they represent..its all about money.
In other words where they form are actually the last place they would be needed

Both of my grandfathers worked in the coal mines and died before they hit 50. That was in Pennyslvania. I'm also aware of the history of coal mining in my "adopted" state of WV.

The government back then usually did intervene, but by sending ARMED troops to quell the workers. Let's not even get into the that legal hit firm of the Pinkerton agency that company owners would hire that would use terroristic tactics.

You see, there was a reason for workers to be pissed off, and rightfully so. Problem is, you probably forgot about those days.

I've got to ask, when and where have your family members work in a coal mine?

Like I said, I'm no fan of the union, but I understand how and why it came to be.

Generally, power corrupts. Be it management OR union. That's because people are involved.
 

The Man

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Oh. My. Fucking. Gawd.


In that single sentence, you have proven beyond any reasonable doubut that you are talking out your ass and are completely clueless.

Not all john...they just havent fully formed in the US yet as they have in other nations

But the pricks are doing their best.


(Reuters) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc is taking its first legal step to stop months of protests and rallies outside Walmart stores, targeting the union that it says is behind such actions.

Wal-Mart filed an unfair labor practice charge against the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union, or UFCW, asking the National Labor Relations Board to halt what the retailer says are unlawful attempts to disrupt its business.

The move comes just a week before what is expected to be the largest organized action against the world's largest retailer, as a small group of Walmart workers prepare to strike on Black Friday, typically the busiest shopping day of the year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/16/us-walmart-union-idUSBRE8AF1DB20121116


As we can see they are forcing their way in.
Let me ask you this John....why does walmart need a union in the states?
 

Johnfromokc

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As we can see they are forcing their way in.
Let me ask you this John....why does walmart need a union in the states?


More proof you have no clue what you are talking about. Ever worked at Walmart TM? The are openly hostile to unions. openly threaten employess and spend billions lobbying to weaken unions and workers rights. Walmart will crush these minimum wage workers who are seeking dignity and respect in the workplace. Does that make you feel good TM? Does it make you happy to see people fucked over because it fits your political paradigm?

Tell me a little about your work history TM - just a short resume so I can figure out where you acquired your fucked up attitude toward your fellow American worker.
 

Francis

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One wonders....

BCTGM members are well aware that as the company was preparing to file for bankruptcy earlier this year, the then CEO of Hostess was awarded a 300 percent raise (from approximately $750,000 to $2,550,000) and at least nine other top executives of the company received massive pay raises. One such executive received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one taking his salary from $375,000 to $656,256.

http://scallywagandvagabond.com/201...at-hostess-ironically-now-becoming-very-rich/

Also was it in the plans that Hostess that had not brought out any innovative products in years, filled for bankruptcy in 2004 and now again rise again by a competitor without a unions..

Also negotiations only had been ongoing for 1 week.... ??

The 82-year-old maker of Hostess CupCakes, Ding Dongs and Ho Hos said yesterday it would fire more than 18,000 employees and go out of business after a weeklong strike by its bakers’ union. Metropoulos, owner of Pabst Brewing Co., said it may bid for Hostess’s ``iconic brands.’’ Flowers, maker of Nature’s Own bread and Tastykake snacks, could pursue some of its rival’s assets to expand its geographic reach and fill existing territory, wrote William Chappell, an analyst with SunTrust Robinson Humphrey.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...2f0aca-3077-11e2-af17-67abba0676e2_story.html

If this is all true, and I really don't know, something is wrong with this picture..
 

Johnfromokc

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If this is all true, and I really don't know, something is wrong with this picture..

It's called venture capitalism Francis. A hedge fund, or group of investors buys a company and squeezes the employees for wage concessions. This is like taking candy from a baby in non union companies. They cash in in numerous ways, channeling profits to a few wealthy investors at the expense of the employees. When the company inevitably fails, they liquidate assets and split the millions amongst themselves and put the employees in the street, and in this case, blame the union.

This has been going on here in the United States for decades.
 

The Man

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Both of my grandfathers worked in the coal mines and died before they hit 50. That was in Pennyslvania. I'm also aware of the history of coal mining in my "adopted" state of WV.

The government back then usually did intervene, but by sending ARMED troops to quell the workers. Let's not even get into the that legal hit firm of the Pinkerton agency that company owners would hire that would use terroristic tactics.

You see, there was a reason for workers to be pissed off, and rightfully so. Problem is, you probably forgot about those days.

I've got to ask, when and where have your family members work in a coal mine?

Like I said, I'm no fan of the union, but I understand how and why it came to be.

Generally, power corrupts. Be it management OR union. That's because people are involved.

Sorry your relatives died at an early age
No one forced them to work there...it had its dangers people were aware of it when they took the job.
Dangers we didnt know about {future lung problems}...who do we blame?
Just like asbestos we learned later.
But on the known dangers...
The same goes if you want to paint water towers for a living...its a choice.
Same for filming sharks.
A union doesnt t takes the sharks teeth away.....or break your fall from a tower.

I have worked at a strip mine{as non union} no other family members have.
Screening slag...when I took the job production was about 35 tons an hour when I left it was over 100 plus in comfort.
Same machines ...just alot of tweaking.
See since I was non union I could do whatever I wanted ...I did whatever needed to be done.
Tweak and wait....tweak and wait...I worked very little, lots of waiting.
I did my own fabrications which wouldn't have been possible with unions.
I run the valves and jets how I wished.
I was my own plumber,welder, electrician etc.
It was our loader we could do whatever we wanted with it...I could have let the dog run it if I wanted.
 

The Man

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One wonders....



http://scallywagandvagabond.com/201...at-hostess-ironically-now-becoming-very-rich/

Also was it in the plans that Hostess that had not brought out any innovative products in years, filled for bankruptcy in 2004 and now again rise again by a competitor without a unions..

Also negotiations only had been ongoing for 1 week.... ??



http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...2f0aca-3077-11e2-af17-67abba0676e2_story.html

If this is all true, and I really don't know, something is wrong with this picture..

lets take 18000 employees times 40 hours a week times 52 weeks in a year
this comes out to

37440000 man hours a years
These big salaries you quoted comes out to pennies averaged per hour per employee going toward these large salaries.
To be honest I would be pissed if I was making about a dime an hour off of each employee.
lets see the local grocery store make it on that.
Just goes to show...the union wants to take all and keep it within pennies an hour of folding a company.

The ceos salaries is a drop in the bucket to save the companies.
Lets give the workers another dime an hour and see if they will come back while we work for free lol.
Meanwhile all the equipment is getting older...and we really need new buildings to..if we could drop benefits a buck an hour....we could put almost 37 million a year back into the company...which may slowly start replacing buildings and equipment.


I think they made 18 to 20 bucks an hour with wage and benefits...now when you start adding the costs of those that are receiving pensions..its anybodys guess how much the stinking unions cost them.
One thing for sure if the pensions weren't there and labor costs were at about 15 bucks an hour {with benefits} .

I will just toss out a figure of 11 bucks an hour savings to stay on to low side.
This comes out to 411,840,000 bucks a year saved...enough to perhaps save and maintain the company...and lower the price of the junkfood at the same time.
 
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Johnfromokc

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I am glad you are concerned about the Walmart workers and about the pizza delivery drivers. It's okay for you however to mock me because I drove a forklift?

Damn kitty - I thought you were more perceptive than that. At no point did I mock you for being a forklift operator. I mocked you for your comment on taxation. Pay attention.
 

Johnfromokc

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Joe the meek

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Sorry your relatives died at an early age
No one forced them to work there...it had its dangers people were aware of it when they took the job.

Yeah, no one forced them to work there but it was the only way they could make money when they came off the boat.

They may not of been forced to work there, but you should read up on your history what the employers did to keep their workers in line.

Long story short, a lot of American workers in our past history had two options. Starve to death or work doing ANYTHING they could find (something that I believe current generations have long forgotten about).

When you have employers hiring killers to keep their workers in line, sooner or later someone is going to take a stand.

Unions came to be due to mismanagement and money hungry owners. Even though I'm not fond of unions myself, I even realize that.

My wife's company is a prime example of good management. Due to law, when they bought out a union company, the company as a whole had to vote to go union or not. Fact is,my wife's company takes care of it's employees, and even the union workers realized that they would have it better under new management without the union.
 

The Man

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More proof you have no clue what you are talking about. Ever worked at Walmart TM? The are openly hostile to unions. openly threaten employess and spend billions lobbying to weaken unions and workers rights. Walmart will crush these minimum wage workers who are seeking dignity and respect in the workplace. Does that make you feel good TM? Does it make you happy to see people fucked over because it fits your political paradigm?

Tell me a little about your work history TM - just a short resume so I can figure out where you acquired your fucked up attitude toward your fellow American worker.

John..they have unions in others nations that are owned by walmart....they are working their way in here now.
You may want to read that link john.
Ofcourse they are hostile to unions john..the workers however john love unions john.
They will make their way in John ...just as they do other profitable companies.
 

The Man

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You may want to read my prior post john the ceo wages comes to pennies an hour per employee going towards the ceo
Let me ask you this john would you like to run a business at a dime an hour profit per employee to cover the executive wages?
Actually less when we consider equipment and building depreciation.
They were in the hole john.
If you think those ceo wages broke them John you may want to retire as a professor John.
Again it comes out to about a dime an hour per employee to cover several ceos.
 
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