UAW workers paid $75 an hour!!!

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SgtSpike

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put this into perspective.......is this money across the board?.....is it management?.....or is it an average of the salery of all the employees?

now going buy mr mulders original post i take it he thinks bolting things onto a car on a track is an easy life...think again.....its one of the most boring and stressful things you can imagine.....put yourself in the position of the average assembly worker,you have perhaps 90 seconds to do your job on every car....now you are already rushed off your feet with this then the company says they're upping the trackspeed by 3 cars an hour,not alot you might think,well if your struggling anyway its a nightmare......then take into consideration the rigours of the job,you might be putting the carpets in for instance,so its not long before you suffer from back problems.......or you might be under the suspended car doing something underneath,neck problems?.......its not the easy life some would imagine it to be
Dude, wow... There's assembly-line manufacturing jobs at my workplace where they are under the exact same "stresses" or whatever you want to call it, but they're only paid $13/hr at the most. Are you saying they should get a 500% increase in their pay?

Yes, assembly job work can be boring. Yes, it can be stressful. And 99% of all the other jobs in existance have the same problems. What's your point? Obviously, people are willing to get past those things if they get paid enough, and anyone who is working at that job is getting paid enough or they wouldn't be standing their working!

To work is a choice. If you don't like the job, fine, most people don't. If they pay you enough to look past the bad parts of the job, then great - you've got a job! If it's not worth the pay to you, then you will chose to keep looking for another job. It's not that difficult...

And regarding the neck/back injuries - that's a joke. I can't believe you even brought that up. Pretty much any physical working job (and even office jobs) can and probably will give you health problems. It's part of the job. If you don't like it, DON'T TAKE THE JOB. Not that hard. :rolleyes:
 
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Alien Allen

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my guys do twice the hard labor as these auto workers

i have seen factories where they make castings and those guys are working by the piece. that is hard labor. the auto workers have negotiated to reasonable working conditions. many years ago the same could not be said.
 

Strauss

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The point I think he's making is--"someone has to do that work, we can't all be carpenters and electricians, and accoutants and doctors, etc." And of course that's true--its just one of life's unfairnesses that will never be corrected in a free market economy.

Well I have to disagree. If everyone refused to do the work until either and/or the wages made the pain of the work bearable and/or they forced the employer, by refusing the work, to change the conditions under which the work was performed the employer would have to conform or go out of business That would be an perfect example of the fee market system at work.
 

SgtSpike

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Well I have to disagree. If everyone refused to do the work until either and/or the wages made the pain of the work bearable and/or they forced the employer, by refusing the work, to change the conditions under which the work was performed the employer would have to conform or go out of business That would be an perfect example of the fee market system at work.
Exactly. And that's how the system should work, but for some reason, Dems and the UAW don't think so.
 

Minor Axis

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I understand. But to compare apples to apples you need to compare salary and benefits because that's the actual cost to the employer. If one employer pays $30 an hour and no benefits after retirement, that is a lot less than one that pays $30 an hour with lifetime medical. The only way to compare accurately is to compare total cost.

Maybe someone can find a link that compares total employee compensation comparing US and foreign auto manufacturing companies?

Pensions are a sweet deal, but under todays economic circumstances if the employer makes a comparable 401k contribution and leaves it up to the employee to manage their own retirement funds, that's acceptable. However is many cases the employer only wants to make a pittance 401k contribution which results in a huge employee benefit cut. So while we are cutting employee benefits, we can also put in place rules that limit executive compensation which is clearly out of wack.

You love to hammer unions, but you turn a blind eye to executives because for some reason you think since they run the company, no matter what they do or want, such as demanding millions for substandard performance, that's ok. The "ego zone" is so strong in executive board rooms, some (many?) think they are deserving just because they attained the position.

And even when a company is successful, is there anyone here who actually thinks $400 million dollars (Exxon) is a reasonable retirement package? What is wrong with just a measly $10 or 20 million?? It's the perfect example of the "ego zone" at work in corporate America.
 

SgtSpike

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Maybe someone can find a link that compares total employee compensation comparing US and foreign auto manufacturing companies?

Pensions are a sweet deal, but under todays economic circumstances if the employer makes a comparable 401k contribution and leaves it up to the employee to manage their own retirement funds, that's acceptable. However is many cases the employer only wants to make a pittance 401k contribution which results in a huge employee benefit cut. So while we are cutting employee benefits, we can also put in place rules that limit executive compensation which is clearly out of wack.

You love to hammer unions, but you turn a blind eye to executives because for some reason you think since they run the company, no matter what they do or want, such as demanding millions for substandard performance, that's ok. The "ego zone" is so strong in executive board rooms, some (many?) think they are deserving just because they attained the position.

And even when a company is successful, is there anyone here who actually thinks $400 million dollars (Exxon) is a reasonable retirement package? What is wrong with just a measly $10 or 20 million?? It's the perfect example of the "ego zone" at work in corporate America.
If you regulate the salaries of CEO's, guess what? There's going to be a shortage of CEO's! As much as you'd like to think that managing a multinational company is a piece of cake, that just isn't the case, and very few people have the experience and are capable of such a job. In order to get those people onboard, these companies HAVE to pay them millions. Otherwise, they'd only be able to get joe shmoe off the street to do it for them, and he's not going to do a very good job.

I'm sure if Ford could find someone who was capable of doing the job for 500 grand a year, they would have hired them in an instant. But the job marketplace for top-end CEO's just isn't that simple. The types of people who have no families and no lives because they have to spend it all managing their companies, well, they also only live for money. So they're going to want lots of it.

When a top-end CEO becomes available and is out looking for a job, they get many offers from many different companies. One company may offer $1 million/yr + stock options, and another might offer $5 million/yr + stock options. Which company is the CEO going to go work for? Obviously the one who offered him $5 million!

Now, say there is a $1 million cap on salaries. Suddenly, both companies have an equal chance at getting the CEO, and the CEO may even decide to retire instead of go for another job that is going to offer him pennies compared to what he already has. So now, with some CEO's retiring instread of continuing to work for hardly anything, there is a shortage of people who can run a company well, and some companies will go without a CEO (or with a really crappy CEO) for months or even years. That would be a bad thing, both for the companies and for the economy.

Now I'm not saying that the CEO's of the Big 3 are perfect, or that there wasn't things they could have improved on, but if they were truly THAT BAD, then they wouldn't have a job right now. The board of directors for each of those companies would have fired them by now. That's the beauty of a free market - it corrects itself. It doesn't need regulation (except in the case of scarce resources).
 

Strauss

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If you regulate the salaries of CEO's, guess what? There's going to be a shortage of CEO's! As much as you'd like to think that managing a multinational company is a piece of cake, that just isn't the case, and very few people have the experience and are capable of such a job. In order to get those people onboard, these companies HAVE to pay them millions. Otherwise, they'd only be able to get joe shmoe off the street to do it for them, and he's not going to do a very good job.

<SNIP>

Now I'm not saying that the CEO's of the Big 3 are perfect, or that there wasn't things they could have improved on, but if they were truly THAT BAD, then they wouldn't have a job right now. The board of directors for each of those companies would have fired them by now. That's the beauty of a free market - it corrects itself. It doesn't need regulation (except in the case of scarce resources).


HEY.....HEY....post showing this type of uncommon intelligence and, most importantly, common sense will not be tolerated in the Obama era. Stop now or we will have to go politically correct all over your ass. :24:
;)
 

Fox Mulder

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You love to hammer unions, but you turn a blind eye to executives because for some reason you think since they run the company, no matter what they do or want, such as demanding millions for substandard performance, that's ok. The "ego zone" is so strong in executive board rooms, some (many?) think they are deserving just because they attained the position.

You just don't fucking get it do you? ITS A FREE MARKET--AN EXECUTIVE GETS HIS SALARY BASED ON FREE NEGOTIATION. The company is free to pay him/her what they want--whether its a dollar or a million dollars. Unions on the other hand extort money--they don't bargain freely for it--they are given an unfair advantage that allows them to obtain more money than they could on the free market. I don't give a fuck how much and executive earns or how much a union slug earns as long as its freely bargained for.

Also, you've got one fucking CEO in a company whereas you've got thousands of union workers--the cost of the unions workers and their benefits are far greater than the salary of the average CEO.

You turn a blind eye to the communist nature of unions because you are one of the few who is gaining an advantage at the expense of others--of course you rationalize it--its the only way to keep doing what you're doing and feel its right. I'm not a corprate executive or a union slug so I have no axe to grind with either. I don't personally like anyone making millions, but the point is that a top flight CEO commands that kind of salary--that's what the market provides. A union employee can be had for less money than what he/she makes--that is the pay they receive is not warranted by the market demand. As such, someone has to pay the price for that imbalance. You as a union slug benefit while society and the average laborer loses--its that simple.
 

skyblue

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you might find that when pay rises are negotiated in car factories the rises are across the board,so if the track workers get 10% the directors do too,would be interesting to know directors salaries
 

Fox Mulder

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you might find that when pay rises are negotiated in car factories the rises are across the board,so if the track workers get 10% the directors do too,would be interesting to know directors salaries

Its irrelevant. Again, this is not a moral issue, its an economics issue. You cannot artificially raise wages over what the market values those services. The market will correct the overvaluation. The company will first find ways around it (i.e., outsourcing labor to cheaper areas) and if they cannot, they will cease to be competetive as what has happened with the automakers.

This is not rocket science. If the skill set needed to put parts on a line warrants $15 an hour but the company is forced to pay $30 an hour, they will not be able to compete. Now if we take this a step further, and we say well why don't we do this throughout the whole world so that all companies have to pay the same wage for this service so that none of them are disadvantaged what happens? The prices of goods and services will simply go up thereby eliminating the raise. This is what people must understand--there is no way to artificially raise wages--it can't be done on a permanent basis. All that happens with higher wages than what the market calls for is that a very few benefit while the majority are penalized.
 

Minor Axis

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You just don't fucking get it do you? ITS A FREE MARKET--AN EXECUTIVE GETS HIS SALARY BASED ON FREE NEGOTIATION.

You don't get it. It's not a free market and they don't deserve fabulous wealth in many cases based on piss poor performance and even if they are a success, $10 million is plenty for CEO retirement.

All the extra money comes out of the company and takes away from it's ability to function and in tough times makes it more likely to suffer. But smart executives don't care about that because they got theirs and are sitting pretty. It is the career employees that are married to the company that suffer.

Yes it's the extreme, but a $400M Exxon retirement package is a disgrace and it is immoral.
 

SgtSpike

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You don't get it. It's not a free market and they don't deserve fabulous wealth in many cases based on piss poor performance and even if they are a success, $10 million is plenty for CEO retirement.

All the extra money comes out of the company and takes away from it's ability to function and in tough times makes it more likely to suffer. But smart executives don't care about that because they got theirs and are sitting pretty. It is the career employees that are married to the company that suffer.

Yes it's the extreme, but a $400M Exxon retirement package is a disgrace and it is immoral.
Again, you're ignoring how a free market works. If Exxon wants a particular CEO onboard, and he is only going to come onboard if they pay him $400 million, then they're going to pay him $400 million. It is not the government's (or the people's) place to say that he can't make $400 million.

THIS IS A FREE COUNTRY. The government is not supposed to say "hey, you can't make that much money." If they did, then it wouldn't be a free country anymore. America was founded on the priciples of giving people the freedom to do what they wanted, and you want to take that away?

Go take your big government ideas somewhere else - we don't want them.
 

Strauss

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From my favorite magazine, National Review:

The Big Three’s Big Three
Severance, pensions, and health benefits


STEPHEN SPRUIELL

Any successful business must be able to respond to fluctuations in demand for its products, but GM’s job-security agreements with its unions make that process burdensome and costly. The workers at the Moraine plant belonged to IUE-CWA, an electrical workers’ union. As a result of the plant closure, IUE-CWA was able to negotiate buyouts of $70,000 to $140,000 for any worker who voluntarily quits. Other workers were made eligible for early retirement.

A few days after the election, I run into Morrow in the parking lot of the Moraine plant. (When I tell him I am a reporter, he says, “Aw, Christ.”) I ask him what’s going to happen to the plant’s 1,400 remaining employees. “More than 50 percent are taking the buyout, maybe a third are doing some sort of retirement, and some are staying and hoping to transfer,” he says. He says he’s hoping to transfer.

GM employees who stay with the company and are laid off will qualify for GM’s supplemental unemployment benefits, meaning that GM will make up the difference between their former wages and their state unemployment checks. When those checks run out, GM will pay these workers 95 percent of their former wages for up to two years, depending on seniority. Workers with at least ten years of seniority are eligible for the Job Opportunity Bank Security program. This is the notorious jobs bank that allows laid-off workers receive their regular hourly pay to sit around and work crossword puzzles or read the paper. If GM offers them an opportunity to transfer to another plant, they have the right to turn down a limited number of such offers. And if no offer is made, they can stay in the jobs bank until they retire. GM currently has around 1,400 workers nationwide in the jobs bank.

Peter Morici is a professor of international business at the University of Maryland. In late November, he testified before the Senate Banking Committee, alongside the CEOs of the Big Three automakers and United Auto Workers president Ron Gettelfinger. “The real problem here is that [Banking Committee chairman Chris] Dodd doesn’t understand the scope of the severance payments that the UAW gets,” Morici tells me. “They go in the jobs bank and they stay there forever. My feeling is that [the Big Three] are at fault for letting the jobs bank continue after these last labor negotiations and agreeing to $105,000 buyouts. The whole situation is absurd.”

John Heitmann, an automotive historian at the University of Dayton, agrees. “We can’t really compete when we have those kinds of contracts,” he says. “It’s the health care, it’s the seniority, and it’s the work rules. In flush times, when life was good and you could sell many different vehicles and particularly trucks at very high profits, GM could survive like that. But it was just a matter of time before things caught up with them.”

The Big Three and their unions argue that in 2007 they signed new contracts bringing wages and benefits down to more realistic levels. Once the health-care provisions of these contracts take effect in 2010, they say, they will be out from underneath the crushing liabilities that have saddled them with so much debt. “They talk about all the things they gave up,” Morici says. “But their contracts are so complex, you could give up half the things in the contracts and they would still be burdensome.”

The new contracts took steps toward closing the compensation gap between the Big Three and their foreign competitors, but left in place the job-security guarantees and work rules that have rendered the Big Three sclerotic and unable to adjust to shifts in demand. Imagine the U.S. auto industry as an emergency-room patient with a severed artery and cholera. The 2007 contracts stopped the bleeding, but the Big Three are still very sick.

The cure, according to Morici, is bankruptcy. “My feeling is that these guys haven’t adequately explored Chapter 11, because they don’t want to,” he says. Bankruptcy would force concessions from the automakers’ unions, but the Big Three are pushing hard to avoid it. They claim that bankruptcy would necessarily mean liquidation and thus economic calamity. To back this up, they produce surveys purporting to show that 80 percent of Americans would not buy a car from a bankrupt auto company, for fear that the company would not be around to service the warranty or provide parts.
 

SgtSpike

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From my favorite magazine, National Review:
I can't believe there are actually people in this world who can look at that and say it is an ok thing. Getting paid for sitting around doing absolutely nothing, potentially for the rest of your life? No wonder GM is going down! It'd be one thing if these sorts of packages were negotiated and agreed to in the free market, but the fact that they are unfairly extorted by unions is just maddening.
 

kelvin070

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“We’ve heard this garbage about 73 bucks an hour,” Senator Bob Casey, a Pennsylvania Democrat, said last week. “It’s a total lie. I think some people have perpetrated that deliberately, in a calculated way, to mislead the American people about what we’re doing here.” More.....
 

SgtSpike

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“We’ve heard this garbage about 73 bucks an hour,” Senator Bob Casey, a Pennsylvania Democrat, said last week. “It’s a total lie. I think some people have perpetrated that deliberately, in a calculated way, to mislead the American people about what we’re doing here.” More.....
Where does that "garbage" come from, if it isn't true?
 

Minor Axis

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I can't believe there are actually people in this world who can look at that and say it is an ok thing. Getting paid for sitting around doing absolutely nothing, potentially for the rest of your life? No wonder GM is going down! It'd be one thing if these sorts of packages were negotiated and agreed to in the free market, but the fact that they are unfairly extorted by unions is just maddening.

So you have no problem with a $400 million dollar retirement package, not excessive at all? You don't think this kind of attitude towards executive compensation has no adverse effect on the company?

As far as the auto workers, people are people. If it's people in a union they are going to negotiate for the best deal they can get, just like executives do. Economic times along with bad decisions by executives means that the auto workers are going to have to suck it up if they want to remain employed.

But you and Strauss have to start placing as much responsibility on the executives as you do on the people in unions. Just because you imagine we have a "free market", does not mean that every executive decision is right and moral, especially when short term self enrichment seems to be the primary executive goal these days, just because they (the executives) are in a position exert power over the Board of Directors who are all in on it too. Start looking at companies as an organism. All parts of the animal have to be healthy for it to be competitive.
 
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