U.S. and Iraq are officially winning:

[DaveM]

You kinda lost me with the second part. Are you saying the government is covering up the violence?

not saying they are, just putting another possibility into the mix, it's called propaganda, things are going down the crapper, the government wouldn't want to tell their people that would they, loss of patriotism and an even greater loss of trust in the government, they would want to say the exact opposite of what's happening, ruling governments use mistruths all the time

 

[All Else Failed]

So you'll write off 16 months of continuous, substantiated progress as "macro-fluctuation"? That settles it for me, you're absolutely the most close-minded person on this site. I'm simply amazed by that statement.

Progress? Iraq was #2 in the 2007 Failed States Index, devised by the Fund for Peace and published by Foreign Policy magazine. Sudan was #1 and #3 and #4 were Somalia and Zimbabwe. Explain how that is progress.


You don't see how this is helping the Islamic fundamentalists, do you? Its an old tactic called super power baiting. A super power attacks a country of weaker military force and then are bled slowly by guerrilla operations and insurgency. We are bled day by day economically, materially, and politically. Over time, thousands will die for "this noble cause", thousands more will be fucked up for the rest of their lives, a lot will go into poverty since the military won't be able to support all of them in our economic status and so on. We are playing right into their hands by attacking Iraq, attacking a country that didn't even have Al-queda in it until we blundered in. Don't you see it? Its such an obvious thing what they are doing. THEY are winning, my freind. THEIR goals are being met. Know why? Their goal is to entice hatred of western power and democracy, and they don't even have to lift a finger. We do all the work for them. Every day there is another victory for them, another hundred youths angered and joining their cause. You kill one, a dozen spring up. This war will be paid in 20 year old's limbs and skull fragments. This war will bleed us for several years into the future. This war is a complete waste of everything conceivable.

 

[All Else Failed]

And that's different than Communist News Network logic (term used loosely) how? :confused



Its astounding to me that anyone believes that the Bush Administration is deliberately failing to apprehend Bin Laden. Honestly, the ridiculous conspiracy theories that some of you people come up with. You do realize don't you that Hollywood conspiracy theory movies are fictional, right?

No, they just don't put forth the needed effort to find him, since our sights are on Iraq now. No consipracy there, just negligence.

Oh, and I don't even like communism.

 

[dt3]

Progress? Iraq was #2 in the 2007 Failed States Index, devised by the Fund for Peace and published by Foreign Policy magazine. Sudan was #1 and #3 and #4 were Somalia and Zimbabwe. Explain how that is progress.

Nobody is saying Iraq is going to turn into a superpower overnight. But if you think about it logically, social/economic/political progress CANNOT happen until there is military stability. And this article is all about how there is more military stability than ever before. Now is the time for the politicans to step up and do their job, because the military has done theirs and bought some time.

 

[Alien Allen]

Nobody is saying Iraq is going to turn into a superpower overnight. But if you think about it logically, social/economic/political progress CANNOT happen until there is military stability. And this article is all about how there is more military stability than ever before. Now is the time for the politicans to step up and do their job, because the military has done theirs and bought some time.

This thing was never gonna be quick and easy. There HAS been progress. That is irrefutable. You are dead on that now that the military is starting to make headway that it is time for the politicians over there to make this work.

 

[Minor Axis]

Honestly, I find it stunningly unbelievable that some of you think Hussein was not a danger--it is absolutel and utter political blindness.

Hussein was a danger to his people like every dictator is, but when was that ever a standard for the U.S to invade, spend a trillion dollars and get hundreds of thousands of people killed? We wheel and deal with dictators all the time- no problem. The political blindness is giving cover to the Republican party for launching this travesty of a war in the name of U.S. security.

 

[Minor Axis]

Iraq: Tragedy or Travesty?

Newsweek 06/30/08- What Obama Should Say on Iraq by Fareed Zakaria

Exerpt:
"I start from a different premise. I believe that the Iraq War was a major strategic blunder. It diverted us from the battle against Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan—the people who launched the attacks of 9/11 and who remain powerful and active today. We face threats in Iraq, but the two greatest ones, as General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker have testified, are Al Qaeda (which is wounded but not dead) and Iran. Both are a direct consequence of the invasion. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before 2003, and Iran's influence has expanded massively since then.

"And then there are the more tangible costs. The war has resulted in over 4,000 U.S. combat deaths, four times as many grievously wounded, and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. Over 2 million Iraqis have fled the country and 2 million more have been displaced within the country. The price tag in dollars has also been staggering. In the last five years, the United States has spent close to $1 trillion on the invasion and occupation of Iraq. That is enough money to rebuild every school, bridge and road in America, create universal health care and fund several Manhattan Projects in alternative energy. Whatever benefits the invasion of Iraq might produce, it cannot justify these expenditures in lives and treasure.

Now if we wanted to spend that money on the above bold faced items, do you think we could ever get the Republicans to agree to it?? Not likely. As is, a fortune, part of this countries future has been pissed away.

 

[Tim]

Re: Iraq: Tragedy or Travesty?

Newsweek 06/30/08- What Obama Should Say on Iraq by Fareed Zakaria

Exerpt:
"I start from a different premise. I believe that the Iraq War was a major strategic blunder. It diverted us from the battle against Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan—the people who launched the attacks of 9/11 and who remain powerful and active today. We face threats in Iraq, but the two greatest ones, as General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker have testified, are Al Qaeda (which is wounded but not dead) and Iran. Both are a direct consequence of the invasion. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before 2003, and Iran's influence has expanded massively since then.

"And then there are the more tangible costs. The war has resulted in over 4,000 U.S. combat deaths, four times as many grievously wounded, and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. Over 2 million Iraqis have fled the country and 2 million more have been displaced within the country. The price tag in dollars has also been staggering. In the last five years, the United States has spent close to $1 trillion on the invasion and occupation of Iraq. That is enough money to rebuild every school, bridge and road in America, create universal health care and fund several Manhattan Projects in alternative energy. Whatever benefits the invasion of Iraq might produce, it cannot justify these expenditures in lives and treasure.

Now if we wanted to spend that money on the above bold faced items, do you think we could ever get the Republican's to agree to it?? Not likely.

:clap

 

[GraceAbounds]

Re: Iraq: Tragedy or Travesty?

Newsweek 06/30/08- What Obama Should Say on Iraq by Fareed Zakaria

Exerpt:
"I start from a different premise. I believe that the Iraq War was a major strategic blunder. It diverted us from the battle against Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan—the people who launched the attacks of 9/11 and who remain powerful and active today. We face threats in Iraq, but the two greatest ones, as General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker have testified, are Al Qaeda (which is wounded but not dead) and Iran. Both are a direct consequence of the invasion. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before 2003, and Iran's influence has expanded massively since then.

"And then there are the more tangible costs. The war has resulted in over 4,000 U.S. combat deaths, four times as many grievously wounded, and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. Over 2 million Iraqis have fled the country and 2 million more have been displaced within the country. The price tag in dollars has also been staggering. In the last five years, the United States has spent close to $1 trillion on the invasion and occupation of Iraq. That is enough money to rebuild every school, bridge and road in America, create universal health care and fund several Manhattan Projects in alternative energy. Whatever benefits the invasion of Iraq might produce, it cannot justify these expenditures in lives and treasure.

Wow, those have to be some of the dumbest remarks made by Obama that I have heard thus far.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Iraq: Tragedy or Travesty?

Wow, those have to be some of the dumbest remarks made by Obama that I have heard thus far.

Actually these remarks were written by Fareed Zakaria as what he would say if he were Obama. Never the less why do you consider these remarks as being dumb?

 

[GraceAbounds]

It diverted us from the battle against Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan

No, it didn't.

the people who launched the attacks of 9/11 and who remain powerful and active today.

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. So since this enemy isn't just a 'blowover' to beat I guess we should just do nothing. I'm going home now to fall on my negative, cynical sword and die.

We face threats in Iraq, but the two greatest ones, as General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker have testified, are Al Qaeda (which is wounded but not dead) and Iran. Both are a direct consequence of the invasion. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq before 2003, and Iran's influence has expanded massively since then.

So there was no Al Qaeda before 2003? I could care less if they were IN Iraq or not. As far as Iran goes, they have been full of sh*t for a century. We chose Iraq as the place to go into to fight this battle and I don't have a problem with that at all as Iraq had been breaking UN sanctions for forever and a day and pussyfooting around the truth for over a decade.

"And then there are the more tangible costs. The war has resulted in over 4,000 U.S. combat deaths, four times as many grievously wounded, and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths. Over 2 million Iraqis have fled the country and 2 million more have been displaced within the country. The price tag in dollars has also been staggering. In the last five years, the United States has spent close to $1 trillion on the invasion and occupation of Iraq. That is enough money to rebuild every school, bridge and road in America, create universal health care and fund several Manhattan Projects in alternative energy. Whatever benefits the invasion of Iraq might produce, it cannot justify these expenditures in lives and treasure.

And now let's use money as the bottom line. I've never thought money was a very good way to keep score. If we aren't free, if won't matter if we don't have any money for schools, bridges, roads, health care, etc. ... blah, blah, blah.

.... I don't know why you asked me though .... you know we aren't going to agree on this Minor . We'd just go round and round more than likely. :willy_nilly:

Smiles,
Gracie

 

[Minor Axis]

No, it didn't.

Absolutely it did.

So there was no Al Qaeda before 2003? I could care less if they were IN Iraq or not. As far as Iran goes, they have been full of sh*t for a century. We chose Iraq as the place to go into to fight this battle and I don't have a problem with that at all as Iraq had been breaking UN sanctions for forever and a day and pussyfooting around the truth for over a decade.

Don't bother yourself with the facts, Go George Go! Apparently you bestow the same faith in King Geoge as you do the Almighty.

And now let's use money as the bottom line. I've never thought money was a very good way to keep score. If we aren't free, if won't matter if we don't have any money for schools, bridges, roads, health care, etc. ... blah, blah, blah.

I say this with a sympathetic heart, you have lost touch with reality or you are easily influenced by your leaders. Iraq never posed the threat to this country that the Administration claimed it did.

.... I don't know why you asked me though .... you know we aren't going to agree on this Minor . We'd just go round and round more than likely. :willy_nilly:

Smiles,
Gracie

Actually I was surprised that you'd say the two paragraphs I quoted were "dumb". Apparently whatever the Bush Administration says is good enough for you. Hey I heard the White House was having a Kool-Aid party in November and all are invited.

 

[GraceAbounds]

I answer your questions and you insult me.

Wow! You showed me!

 

[Minor Axis]

I answer your questions and you insult me.

Wow! You showed me!

Was it the Kool-Aid party comment? If so I apologize. I admit I was being sarcastic but the intent was not to insult. However it does sound like you've bought the Administration's collection of tall tales.

And it absolutely makes no sense to say "we picked Iraq as the place to start this battle" especially when Iraq had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with 911 no matter who would like to spin it that way.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Was it the Kool-Aid party comment? If so I apologize.

LOL. No, it wasn't. I accept your apology though, of course.

I'll give you 3 1/2 stars for these assumptions/insults though:

Don't bother yourself with the facts, Go George Go! Apparently you bestow the same faith in King Geoge as you do the Almighty.

you have lost touch with reality

you are easily influenced by your leaders

This is a public announcement to all posters:
People are not blind to facts, they don't put their faith in King George, they aren't oblivious because they believe in God Almighty, they don't have a need to be put in a mental institution, and believe it or not ... they can think and make decisions for themselves even though they don't share the same views as someone else in the debate section of an Internet forum.

 

[Minor Axis]

LOL. No, it wasn't. I accept your apology though, of course.

I'll give you 3 1/2 stars for these assumptions/insults though:



This is a public announcement to all posters:
People are not blind to facts, they don't put their faith in King George, they aren't oblivious because they believe in God Almighty, they don't have a need to be put in a mental institution, and believe it or not ... they can think and make decisions for themselves even though they don't share the same views as someone else in the debate section of an Internet forum.

Normally I would not take the time to explain myself like this, but you seem like a decent person so here goes, not that you will find much comfort.

"Don't bother yourself with the facts"- There are firmly established facts. I can only view your position as someone who is disregarding well known facts. Not an insult in my book just an observation.

"You have lost touch with reality"- As far as Iraq, that's how I see it for whatever reason. But I'll apologize anyway. (You sure making it tough to debate...)

"You are easily enfluenced by your leaders"- Ok so maybe you are not easily influenced, but you have bought into what I consider a twisted form of logic and denial about Iraq. It appears to me that you are more than willing to accept whatever line of (what I consider) misinformation this Administration puts out to justify this tremendously huge mistake called the Iraq War. As far as I can tell, the stated purpose of this war has been an outright lie.

And if it sounded like it, I never ment to insinuate that you need to be institutionalized. Sorry if I did.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Long story short. No, I am not buying whatever the administration says and neither is the other half of the country that supports the war.

I remember vividly when it all went down (9/11). I remember what happened, what was going on at the time, and what we knew to be true and what our intel believed to be true by both political sides. Based on what we knew to be true, I supported the war. During the course of this war, it has been executed horribly at times, but I'm not going to pretend like I could have done any better. I do believe however that McCain could have, but that is neither here nor there.

I am not disregarding any facts that I know of nor have I lost touch with reality because I have a different perspective on the current Iraq war. I support the war.

 

[nTejas]

What are we winning?.......what is going on in Iraq is artificial.........the so called "democracy" that is......democracy in Iraq is NOT coming from the people of Irag....it is being forced on them......top to bottom instead of bottom to top

 

[GraceAbounds]

What are we winning?.......what is going on in Iraq is artificial.........the so called "democracy" that is......democracy in Iraq is NOT coming from the people of Irag....it is being forced on them......top to bottom instead of bottom to top

Hmmmm, I guess that is why record numbers of citizens voted in the elections then, eh? Their actions, their risking their life to get to the poles, doesn't look like it is being forced to me. It is what they want.

 

[Minor Axis]

I support the war.

If this Administration has done one thing well, it's selling a shame war to the American public. Course I don't know how much work that really takes with the low threshold of acceptance there appears to be in this country. My understanding is that support of the war is no longer 50% as it has dragged on for much to long.