The Soul

[Tim]

A little reading for now.

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fedeescienza/mindandbrain.html

I read the article, and it was a painful read.

I understand what the author was trying to convey, but the piece was very poorly written.
I completely disagree with his premise that science does not allow for consciousness. The author attempts to prove this by breaking down the brain to its simplest function/processes (electromagnetic) then comparing them to something as simple as a light bulb. Arguing that a light bulb cannot have consciousness thus our brain cannot achieve consciousness...
Based on this line of reasoning, one can say that an acorn could never grow to a might oak tree since the laws of physics apply equally to the acorn and the light bulb...

 

[Niamh]

No I don't believe in a soul. Why? well it doesn't make any sense to me really

 

[Tim]

A little reading for now.

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fedeescienza/mindandbrain.html

And upon further investigation... the author is an idiot.

Sorry, but just go read other things he has posted. He is a Catholic that molds his views to fit with his religion. Have any doubts? Read his page on scientifically proved miracles.... http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fedeescienza/answersnf.html#dom19e

 

[Carn]

Well that's pretty much a hard question, I think I'll need to think about it a little more.
Nevertheless basically I do believe there is some sort of a spiritual element in side of us, a soul if you want to call it that. This piece represents what kind of a person we are, our character, it's the voice inside telling you that somethings right or wrong. Of course it develops as do we. That's all Probably I'll write something more when I give some more thought into the subject.

 

[Zorak]

Well there are a lot of things that should be impossible by scientific standards but still happen.

Name one.

 

[Tim]

I believe we have a soul.

Disagreeing with Tim, here... I don't think the soul enters the body until we take our first breath. Just my silly opinion.

But where does this "soul" come from? Has this soul always existed? Was it created just for you and does it survive our physical bodies?
There are so many questions that no one really tries to explain or answer.

 

[Minor Axis]

Did anyone read the little linky I posted.....coz I'm surprised no ones commented...

Anyone?

I skim read it. What popped out is the authors assertion that we have consciousness, but there is no proof any other animal has it. Obviously he has never owned a dog. They dream. I may have read this wrong, but when it comes to souls, he seems to have a pro-human, anti-animal bias. When you look at human beings from a scientific view point, we are just advanced mammals. There is nothing special about us. We share 99% of our dna with monkeys. Just because we know we have consciousness does not let us off the hook for disproving other animals don't have consciousness. Animals can't talk, but they can communicate in a variety of ways that display awareness of their environments and they display emotions. The author tries to discount this by calling them biological robots. If we are going to discount this in animals we'd also have to discount it in ourselves. But it is our emotions are what we consider part of being human and 'special'. Actually I do think we are special because we sit on the top of the evolutionary heap. But if you look at human development, it could happen to any species.

The debate becomes how involved did God get in the development? From a scientific standpoint, our development falls within the rules of science just like every other animal. Could there be a soul? Certainly. (I hope there is!) Just as clearly as there are a whole bunch of things we don't understand. But instead of considering that all higher forms of life could have souls, this idea that it's only humans who have souls is coming from a religious bias discrediting the neutrality of the author' logic.

 

[Tim]

Name one.

Gravitation?

Although we understand the effects of gravity there is no underlying theoretical explanation. So science can observe the effects of gravity, it cannot explain how it works or what is going on.

Gravity and consciousness? Much like gravity, consciousness can be observed yet science cannot explain it's origin or processes. Yet people don't believe a supernatural being is holding everything together yet they believe that this supernatural being puts a "soul" (consciousness) into all of us... It just doesn't make sense to me. Why must the unexplained be explained by a supernatural being???

 

[Zorak]

Gravitation?

Although we understand the effects of gravity there is no underlying theoretical explanation. So science can observe the effects of gravity, it cannot explain how it works or what is going on.

Gravity and consciousness? Much like gravity, consciousness can be observed yet science cannot explain it's origin or processes. Yet people don't believe a supernatural being is holding everything together yet they believe that this supernatural being puts a "soul" (consciousness) into all of us... It just doesn't make sense to me. Why must the unexplained be explained by a supernatural being???

What about the theory of relativity? What bit of gravity isn't understood? First I've ever heard of this.

Conscienceness is a philosophical problem. It's not a 'how?' Because we can explain how. It's a 'why?"

 

[Minor Axis]

Gravitation?

Although we understand the effects of gravity there is no underlying theoretical explanation. So science can observe the effects of gravity, it cannot explain how it works or what is going on.

Gravity and consciousness? Much like gravity, consciousness can be observed yet science cannot explain it's origin or processes. Yet people don't believe a supernatural being is holding everything together yet they believe that this supernatural being puts a "soul" (consciousness) into all of us... It just doesn't make sense to me. Why must the unexplained be explained by a supernatural being???

So what you are saying is that there are unexplainable things so while souls can't be proven they can't be totally discounted.

What about the theory of relativity? What bit of gravity isn't understood? First I've ever heard of this.

Conscienceness is a philosophical problem. It's not a 'how?' Because we can explain how. It's a 'why?"

According to Cam's author, there is no explanation of the 'why' other than to assume it's because of our souls. I guess that is possible but it is hardly proven.

 

[GoldDust Woman]

But where does this "soul" come from? Has this soul always existed? Was it created just for you and does it survive our physical bodies?
There are so many questions that no one really tries to explain or answer.

You know where *I* think it comes from.

I liken the soul to our emotions and senses. We don't "feel" (cry, laugh, scream, giggle, ect.,) until we have life breathed into us, and we don't "sense", until life is breathed into us. A fetus depends on the Mother to thrive... all of it's needs are met while in the womb. Once we're born, we're singular. Enters - the soul. (Again, this is my opinion.)

Does it survive our physical bodies? :confused Did you mean to say, does it live on after the physical body dies?

 

[Minor Axis]

You know where *I* think it comes from.

I liken the soul to our emotions and senses. We don't "feel" (cry, laugh, scream, giggle, ect.,) until we have life breathed into us, and we don't "sense", until life is breathed into us. A fetus depends on the Mother to thrive... all of it's needs are met while in the womb. Once we're born, we're singular. Enters - the soul. (Again, this is my opinion.)

Does it survive our physical bodies? :confused Did you mean to say, does it live on after the physical body dies?

Do animals have souls? If we can, why can't they?

 

[GoldDust Woman]

Do animals have souls? If we can, why can't they?

That is a question I've asked myself many times. My dog behaves as if she has "feelings" and "sense"... so, it's quite possible that she does have a soul. Do I know for certain? I don't. Going with the creation theory, anything is possible.

 

[Tim]

What about the theory of relativity? What bit of gravity isn't understood? First I've ever heard of this.

Conscienceness is a philosophical problem. It's not a 'how?' Because we can explain how. It's a 'why?"

I remember a show I saw years ago on the science channel. They had a physicist talking about something when he mentioned that nobody knows what makes gravity work or the underlying processes. This statement blew my mind, so I went on a fact finding mission...
He was correct, there are many theories out there but none solve the mystery of why or how particle attract.

Take a simple light bulb. We know that it gives off light and heat when an electric current is run through it's filament. We can measure the amount of light and heat generated based on the electric charge. We know that the light we see is the result of metal ions being excited by the electrical charge. With gravity, we can measure it's force, we can model it's properties and reduce it to a mathematical equation, yet we do not know why particles have this attraction. What is the explanation of this attraction?

If you ever have the time, go read some of the research into gravitation and it's underlying explanation.

 

[edgray]

Science shmience... you people make laugh. "science can't prove it so it must be impossible"... Well there are a lot of things that should be impossible by scientific standards but still happen.

What things happen that should be impossible by scientific standards then, Dana? I'd love to hear this!!!!!

*waits for the answer never to come*

---

As for a soul... No, I'm afraid I don't believe in any kind of "spiritual" world that might have souls in it etc.

I do know that I cannot know 100% either way. No one can.

 

[edgray]

What bit of gravity isn't understood? First I've ever heard of this.

What isn't understood about gravity is why it is so weak compared to the other forces. Other than that, we've got a good grip on how it works, and the effect it has on time and space.

 

[Tim]

So what you are saying is that there are unexplainable things so while souls can't be proven they can't be totally discounted.

Yes, there are MANY unexplainable things... But I will NEVER attribute the unexplainable to a myth, fairytale or religion. Let me see if I can explain why I feel this way...
If I were to personally observe an event that could not be explained by science (at least with our current understanding) it would be just as wrong for me to attribute that event to a myth, a fairytale, a religion, an alien or any other supernatural entity. I am not audacious enough to presume to know which "myth" to associate that event with.
For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many hold their beliefs, their myths to be truths. Religions are born of man's imagination and as such are not universal truths. Water is wet and will flow when warm. This is a universal truth that was correct before man as it is today. Yet religion has changed countless times. There have been thousands of beliefs and "truths" related to religion that have shaped our species, but they are nothing more than inventions of ours. They are not and never will be truths.

So while I believe in consciousness, I do not believe in a soul which was born of religion. There was no supernatural being who created a soul for me at birth nor is there an afterlife where my soul will reside for eternity. My consciousness will expire as the last few neurons fire in my brain. And I'm ok with that.

 

[Tim]

What isn't understood about gravity is why it is so weak compared to the other forces. Other than that, we've got a good grip on how it works, and the effect it has on time and space.

Actually science does not know what causes the attraction... Seriously, go do a little research on the topic. You will find paper after paper published on the effects of gravity but that doesn't explain the underlying theoretical explanation.

 

[Niamh]

Yes, there are MANY unexplainable things... But I will NEVER attribute the unexplainable to a myth, fairytale or religion. Let me see if I can explain why I feel this way...
If I were to personally observe an event that could not be explained by science (at least with our current understanding) it would be just as wrong for me to attribute that event to a myth, a fairytale, a religion, an alien or any other supernatural entity. I am not audacious enough to presume to know which "myth" to associate that event with.
For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many hold their beliefs, their myths to be truths. Religions are born of man's imagination and as such are not universal truths. Water is wet and will flow when warm. This is a universal truth that was correct before man as it is today. Yet religion has changed countless times. There have been thousands of beliefs and "truths" related to religion that have shaped our species, but they are nothing more than inventions of ours. They are not and never will be truths.

So while I believe in consciousness, I do not believe in a soul which was born of religion. There was no supernatural being who created a soul for me at birth nor is there an afterlife where my soul will reside for eternity. My consciousness will expire as the last few neurons fire in my brain. And I'm ok with that.

:homo:Great post.

 

[edgray]

Actually science does not know what causes the attraction... Seriously, go do a little research on the topic. You will find paper after paper published on the effects of gravity but that doesn't explain the underlying theoretical explanation.

The latest theory, which I believe was proved by watching how light passing the Earth curves around it, gravity literally bends space and time, like a ball bearing dropped into some sand. It's mass and the amount of space that gives it this attraction.

Like this:

The major remaining puzzle of gravity is why it is so incredibly weak compared to the other 3 known forces.