The human right of health insurance:

Users who are viewing this thread

Tim

Having way too much fun
Valued Contributor
Messages
13,518
Reaction score
43
Tokenz
111.12z
:24:

You Canadians have it all wrong, I don't care what your personal stories are... the waiting lines are too long, you get substandard care, the doctors don't get paid, the government tells you what doctor to see and it's a shit system that we don't want here in the US just like the republicans tell us.

It's funny to see the average American fight against their own interests as hard as they do because some politician throws out idiotic talking points. Those are the same politicians who are in bed with the special interest groups that stand to lose billions if we went with universal health care. Anybody with half a brain would see that a universal health care plan would be the best option by far. Then we can argue about making it work efficiently and better than any other plan out there. But to say that we shouldn't do it because our government won't do it right is backwards thinking. We need to get it up and running first then hold the government accountable to run it right.
 
  • 98
    Replies
  • 2K
    Views
  • 0
    Participant count
    Participants list

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
I remember a few years back now our government was bitching about how much money it would take to go 'national'. There was no way we could afford it, blah, blah blah....

After how many TRILLIONS we have given to Wall Street these past several months, to the tune of over One Hundred Thousand Dollars of debt for each and every tax payer, and how much we have spent on a bogus war, those pleas sound a bit 'off' in my humble opinion.

More likely, the lobby of Health Care doesn't want to see their profits go down w/a national health care system. Period.

We had to drop our $600+/mo 4 $3,000 deductible insurance because it was either put food on the table or pay for shitty coverage. It's a racket. Just like everything else. It sucks. Gee, a reasonable monthly fee for coverage? Cant have that can we? We're too busy bailing out corporations that our government officials are invested in.:puke:
I agree that we couldn't afford the massive corporate Christmas gift and subsequent welfare that Bush started and Obama was more than happy to continue. National socialized single-payer healthcare is far more affordable than that. That's for damn sure.

My problem: we are a nation of laws. Our constitution is the job description of the federal gov't. It clearly gives healthcare (and anything else not specifically mentioned as a federal responsibility) to the states. Congress and presidents have run roughshod over the Constitution as far back as Lincoln. I want to either follow the rules we've set for ourselves or just say fuck it we're the USSA now, so that I can take proper action either way.

If we want the federal government to run healthcare, let's get an amendment to the constidution and do it right.
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
Those are the same politicians who are in bed with the special interest groups that stand to lose billions if we went with universal health care.
And those are the same politicians you want to entrust our healthcare system to. Oh yeh, anybody with half a brain can see that's better. :p
 

Tim

Having way too much fun
Valued Contributor
Messages
13,518
Reaction score
43
Tokenz
111.12z
And those are the same politicians you want to entrust our healthcare system to. Oh yeh, anybody with half a brain can see that's better. :p

I seriously doubt that any politician who is in bed with special interest groups would advocate for a universal heath care plan where the special interest groups are shut out in the cold.

And for the record, I absolutely hate the way congress is dealing with health care right now. They are trying to cater to those special interest groups and pass health care at the same time by giving some expensive watered down version. We need to buck up and just go universal health care now. Forget putting a band-aid on the problem, just do it right now.
 

MoonOwl

In Memoriam - RIP
Messages
14,573
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.01z
I agree that we couldn't afford the massive corporate Christmas gift and subsequent welfare that Bush started and Obama was more than happy to continue. National socialized single-payer healthcare is far more affordable than that. That's for damn sure.

My problem: we are a nation of laws. Our constitution is the job description of the federal gov't. It clearly gives healthcare (and anything else not specifically mentioned as a federal responsibility) to the states. Congress and presidents have run roughshod over the Constitution as far back as Lincoln. I want to either follow the rules we've set for ourselves or just say fuck it we're the USSA now, so that I can take proper action either way.

If we want the federal government to run healthcare, let's get an amendment to the constitution and do it right.


That's the damn scary part aint it? Politicians screw up everything they touch it seems.

You know when they were screaming about the sanctity of marriage over the gays being allowed to 'marry' I wanted to scream. When it would be much, much cheaper for PS & I to divorce so that I could go on Medicade just to get cheap health care for our daughter there is NO sanctity of marriage. In the political spectrum. It's just another way to divide us all.

ppppfffffttttttt........
 

Meirionnydd

Active Member
Messages
793
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
I agree that we couldn't afford the massive corporate Christmas gift and subsequent welfare that Bush started and Obama was more than happy to continue. National socialized single-payer healthcare is far more affordable than that. That's for damn sure.

My problem: we are a nation of laws. Our constitution is the job description of the federal gov't. It clearly gives healthcare (and anything else not specifically mentioned as a federal responsibility) to the states. Congress and presidents have run roughshod over the Constitution as far back as Lincoln. I want to either follow the rules we've set for ourselves or just say fuck it we're the USSA now, so that I can take proper action either way.

If we want the federal government to run healthcare, let's get an amendment to the constidution and do it right.

Well, in Australia, our universal healthcare program, Medicare is run by the Federal Government, with public hospitals coming under state control. G.P's act basically like pseudo-contractors, with their own independent practices supplemented by government subsides, such as bulk-billing, which make the service (in the case of a doctors visit) free for the patient.

That may change soon though, the Australian Health and Hospital Reform Commission released a report regarding reform of the national health care system here, and recommended that the Federal Government take control of some of the hospital services that the states are supposed to provide. (And it also looks like we're going to have a universal dental care system too, yay)

However, this is all constitutional here, the Federal Government was given the power to do that with a constitutional amendment in 1946. Amendments to the constitution here are done via referendum.

In the United States does an amendment to the constitution need to be put forth to the popular vote, or can legislation just be passed though the house and senate?

Accountable, would you feel differently if a universal health care system was proposed but however, it was the responsibilty of the states to administer it? (Using funds provided by the federal government)
 

Alien Allen

Froggy the Prick
Messages
16,633
Reaction score
22
Tokenz
1,206.39z
The constitution has to get 2/3 support in Congress and then the states have to ratify.

Article V: Amendment Process
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
That's the damn scary part aint it? Politicians screw up everything they touch it seems.

You know when they were screaming about the sanctity of marriage over the gays being allowed to 'marry' I wanted to scream. When it would be much, much cheaper for PS & I to divorce so that I could go on Medicade just to get cheap health care for our daughter there is NO sanctity of marriage. In the political spectrum. It's just another way to divide us all.

ppppfffffttttttt........
I looked up "sanctity" on dictionary.com

1. holiness, saintliness, or godliness.
2. sacred or hallowed character: the inviolable sanctity of the temple.
3. a sacred thing.

Isn't that supposed to be the perview of the Church, which is supposed to be separate from the state? :humm:
 

MoonOwl

In Memoriam - RIP
Messages
14,573
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.01z
I looked up "sanctity" on dictionary.com
1. holiness, saintliness, or godliness.
2. sacred or hallowed character: the inviolable sanctity of the temple.
3. a sacred thing.

Isn't that supposed to be the perview of the Church, which is supposed to be separate from the state? :humm:



:24::24::24::24: sssssshhhhhhhhh, don't tell the GOP that....:24::24::24::24:
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
Well, in Australia, our universal healthcare program, Medicare is run by the Federal Government, with public hospitals coming under state control. G.P's act basically like pseudo-contractors, with their own independent practices supplemented by government subsides, such as bulk-billing, which make the service (in the case of a doctors visit) free for the patient.

That may change soon though, the Australian Health and Hospital Reform Commission released a report regarding reform of the national health care system here, and recommended that the Federal Government take control of some of the hospital services that the states are supposed to provide. (And it also looks like we're going to have a universal dental care system too, yay)

However, this is all constitutional here, the Federal Government was given the power to do that with a constitutional amendment in 1946. Amendments to the constitution here are done via referendum.

In the United States does an amendment to the constitution need to be put forth to the popular vote, or can legislation just be passed though the house and senate?
Here's our process:
Constitutional Amendments - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
The Amendment Process
There are essentially two ways spelled out in the Constitution for how to propose an amendment. One has never been used.

The first method is for a bill to pass both houses of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments. Because of some long outstanding amendments, such as the 27th, Congress will normally put a time limit (typically seven years) for the bill to be approved as an amendment (for example, see the 21st and 22nd).

The second method prescribed is for a Constitutional Convention to be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States, and for that Convention to propose one or more amendments. These amendments are then sent to the states to be approved by three-fourths of the legislatures or conventions. This route has never been taken, and there is discussion in political science circles about just how such a convention would be convened, and what kind of changes it would bring about.

Regardless of which of the two proposal routes is taken, the amendment must be ratified, or approved, by three-fourths of states. There are two ways to do this, too. The text of the amendment may specify whether the bill must be passed by the state legislatures or by a state convention. See the Ratification Convention Page for a discussion of the make up of a convention. Amendments are sent to the legislatures of the states by default. Only one amendment, the 21st, specified a convention. In any case, passage by the legislature or convention is by simple majority.

The Constitution, then, spells out four paths for an amendment:
•Proposal by convention of states, ratification by state conventions (never used)
•Proposal by convention of states, ratification by state legislatures (never used)
•Proposal by Congress, ratification by state conventions (used once)
•Proposal by Congress, ratification by state legislatures (used all other times)
It is interesting to note that at no point does the President have a role in the formal amendment process (though he would be free to make his opinion known). He cannot veto an amendment proposal, nor a ratification. This point is clear in Article 5, and was reaffirmed by the Supreme Court in Hollingsworth v Virginia (3 US 378 [1798]):

Meirionnydd said:
Accountable, would you feel differently if a universal health care system was proposed but however, it was the responsibilty of the states to administer it? (Using funds provided by the federal government)
You mean for the federal gov't to mandate the states? No way in Hell. Congress has twisted arms in the past, by holding up some type of funding pending some action by the states. Raising the drinking age to 21 comes to mind. That's extortion, plain and clear, and the responsible parties owe the country an apology and jail time, imo.

If a state wants to impose a system in that state, fine. If each of the 50 states wants its own, fine. In fact, that will set up a system of benchmarking that will ensure constant comparisons, benchmarking, innovation, and improvement - unlike a federal monopoly.
 

Minor Axis

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,294
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.04z
Accountable, I think you have unrealistic expectations, mostly because you are insisting this go in the Constitution as a means of getting it stopped. There are tons of government sponsored programs out there including Bush's faith based initiatives, and none of them have been inserted into the Constitution. Just give it up, dude!

Now would it be good if every thing had to be voted into the Constitution? Eh, maybe. Then maybe they would not have been allowed to steal from the Social Security Fund for the last 50 years. And maybe it would not be currently threatened.
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
Accountable, I think you have unrealistic expectations, mostly because you are insisting this go in the Constitution as a means of getting it stopped.
You don't get to assign motive, only observe behavior. It's unrealistic of me to expect the people elected to write law to follow law as well?? I insist "this go" in the Constitution because it is unconstitutional otherwise.

Here, since you apparently missed it the first time I'll post it again.
My problem: we are a nation of laws. Our constitution is the job description of the federal gov't. It clearly gives healthcare (and anything else not specifically mentioned as a federal responsibility) to the states. Congress and presidents have run roughshod over the Constitution as far back as Lincoln. I want to either follow the rules we've set for ourselves or just say fuck it we're the USSA now, so that I can take proper action either way.

Minor Axis said:
There are tons of government sponsored programs out there including Bush's faith based initiatives, and none of them have been inserted into the Constitution. Just give it up, dude!

Now would it be good if every thing had to be voted into the Constitution? Eh, maybe. Then maybe they would not have been allowed to steal from the Social Security Fund for the last 50 years. And maybe it would not be currently threatened.
Social Security is also unconstitutional.
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
Obama said we all deserve the same healthcare that Congress gets, yet Congress is exempted from this new program. When a reporter asked Obama about it in the press conference the other night he sidestepped rather than answering the question.
 

Minor Axis

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,294
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.04z
Obama said we all deserve the same healthcare that Congress gets, yet Congress is exempted from this new program. When a reporter asked Obama about it in the press conference the other night he sidestepped rather than answering the question.

I'm serious, call him on it! :thumbup
 

Guyzerr

Banned
Messages
12,928
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
:24:

You Canadians have it all wrong, I don't care what your personal stories are... the waiting lines are too long, you get substandard care, the doctors don't get paid, the government tells you what doctor to see and it's a shit system that we don't want here in the US just like the republicans tell us.

Where in the hell are you getting your information from? Don't answer that s.v.p. It would be a total waste of time.


Before your country can do anything with reference to a program that is somewhat akin to Canada's or any other for that matter you must eliminate big business as well as any and all special interest groups. Once complete you could throw a decent program together that would allow doctors to become or remain filthy stinkin' rich. The U.S. has spent roughly 6 TRILLION $ as a total for all the wars it's ever fought. Do you have any idea how many sick people that would treat? Don't answer that s.v.p. It would be a total waste of time.
 

dt3

Back By Unpopular Demand
Messages
24,161
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.21z
The U.S. has spent roughly 6 TRILLION $ as a total for all the wars it's ever fought. Do you have any idea how many sick people that would treat? Don't answer that s.v.p. It would be a total waste of time.
Nah, I'll answer. Let's see...without at least 3 of those wars (Revolutionary, 1812, and Civil) our country wouldn't even exist. And without at least 2 more (the WW's) the world as we know it wouldn't even exist.

And regardless of medical care provided, everybody around from those times would or will eventually die anyway.

Comparing wars to healthcare is like deciding which you like more, giraffes or toffee.
 
79,092Threads
2,187,513Messages
4,980Members
Back
Top