The human right of health insurance:

[IntruderLS1]

July 22, 2009
Rich Hrebic
[FONT=times new roman,times]Isn't the point of the Democrats' push to reform the health care system based on establishing health care as a right? That's what the politicians say of course. But in reality the result will be the exact opposite.

[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,times]Part of the problem is that most Americans don't understand what a right is. A right is not a guarantee that the government (i.e., other people) will provide you something for free. We have the right to engage in religious expression, but that doesn't mean that the government pays for the construction of the church. We have the right to peacefully assemble, but the government doesn't promise to supply your transportation. You have the right to keep and bear arms, but don't expect the government to provide you with a free firearm and bullets. You have the right to free speech, but the government won't grant you free radio or TV air time. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]What makes something a right is not whether the government can force somebody else to pay for it. What defines something as a right is whether the government can or cannot prohibit you from doing it. [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]If the government can't stop you from doing it, then it's a right. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]We have a right to religious expression because the government is prohibited from suppressing that expression. We have the right to assemble because the government must allow us to do so. We can speak freely because the government cannot censor us. Nor can the government take away law-abiding citizens' firearms. [/FONT]

... Continued at AmericanThinker.com, but you probably see where he's going by now.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Medical insurance is different than medical care. Everybody in America, be they American citizen, visiting tourist, or illegal alien has access world class health care. 85% of Americans choose to cover the possibility of financially devastating medical issues with medical insurance, but the 15% that don't, will not be allowed to simply die on the table. They'll be put back together, no questions asked, and then billed accordingly. Statistically speaking, they won't pay which hoses the 85% who do, but medical care was never the issue.

If we give control of our healthcare to the federal government, there is very little limit on what kind of behavior they can dictate or suppress in the name of health care costs. At what point does my Friday BLT cost me $18 because of the health insurance tax levied? At what point do speeding tickets double in price because they now hold a health care addendum? Anybody here enjoy skydiving on occasion? Energy and climate change issues aside, how much of a surcharge will be added to my next Camaro because it burns evil gasoline?

Medicare and Medicaid are crushing State and Federal budgets. Now we're going to double down and trust the Feds to get it right when they aren't even being given time to truly learn what they're voting for? In what world does that make sense?

 

[Alien Allen]

What he said :clap

Obama and the democrats are not fixing the problem.

They are taking it over. And the worst part is the idiots are doing the same as they did with the stimulus. Make an artificial deadline due to an artificial immediate crisis. Draft a monstrously huge bill that nobody reads. And then say we must have this done in the next 2 weeks.

Just how much doctor patient privacy is going to be maintained by the way. Is our health data now going to be held by the govt.

Then they have the balls to say it will save money. Carnahan got booed off the stage the other day when he claimed it would save 6 billion over the next 10 years. What kind of friggin voodoo economics do the democrats follow anyway?

 

[Minor Axis]

Intruder,
I got it, you hate the U.S. government (at least when Democrats are in charge). My question is why don't you look upon Health Care Corporations with the same distain, suspicion or at least an analytical eye? If the system is rich enough to produce 100s of billions of dollars of annual profit, it's rich enough to provide universal health care.

 

[Accountable]

And Lord knows that if anyone dares make mega profits, Minor Axis is entitled to a chunk of it. :cool

Intruder, looks like you & I travel in at least some of the same areas. :thumbup:thumbup:thumbup

 

[Alien Allen]

we might as well give over 20% of the economy to the govt.

they are going after the rest bit by bit

 

[Tim]

And Lord knows that if anyone dares make mega profits, Minor Axis is entitled to a chunk of it. :cool

Intruder, looks like you & I travel in at least some of the same areas. :thumbup:thumbup:thumbup

I have no problem with companies making profits... my problem is companies that make huge profits at the expense of our basic health care. This has only been happening since the late 60's early 70's I think we should go back to the way it has always been in America and keep the profiteers out of the health industry.

 

[Alien Allen]

I have no problem with companies making profits... my problem is companies that make huge profits at the expense of our basic health care. This has only been happening since the late 60's early 70's I think we should go back to the way it has always been in America and keep the profiteers out of the health industry.

Back when I was a kid we had catastrophic insurance. there was none of the stuff where every doctor visit and all the meds you had to pay for. It worked pretty good for our society back then. It kept one from going bankrupt. but also made one think before going to see the doctor for every little pain, ache, and sneeze.

 

[Tim]

Back when I was a kid we had catastrophic insurance. there was none of the stuff where every doctor visit and all the meds you had to pay for. It worked pretty good for our society back then. It kept one from going bankrupt. but also made one think before going to see the doctor for every little pain, ache, and sneeze.

The insurance companies back then were non profit organizations interested in the health of their patients not in their stock price. That's the difference between then and now.

And we should be able to go to the doctor for regular care and check-ups. It is MUCH cheaper to cover preventative care than to cover catastrophic care. There is more concern in protecting your vehicles engine with oil changes every 3000 miles than there is for taking care of your health.

 

[Alien Allen]

The insurance companies back then were non profit organizations interested in the health of their patients not in their stock price. That's the difference between then and now.

And we should be able to go to the doctor for regular care and check-ups. It is MUCH cheaper to cover preventative care than to cover catastrophic care. There is more concern in protecting your vehicles engine with oil changes every 3000 miles than there is for taking care of your health.

I am not gonna argue the first part.

As to the 2nd part. I support yearly physicals. After that you should pay for office visits. They should be more reasonable too.

Just don't think that a NHC will not come without sacrifices though. There will be elderly that will be denied care. Obama even admitted it although he did it very cleverly.

 

[Minor Axis]

And Lord knows that if anyone dares make mega profits, Minor Axis is entitled to a chunk of it. :cool

Intruder, looks like you & I travel in at least some of the same areas. :thumbup:thumbup:thumbup

You guys are certainly devoted to mega profits for large corporations who don't give a rat's ass for you as individuals. BTW, Obama has never proposed (in fact he rejected) a Canadian style health plan. Media Matters. Let the fear mongering continue!

 

[Alien Allen]

You guys are certainly devoted to mega profits for large corporations who don't give a rat's ass for you as individuals. BTW, Obama has never proposed (in fact he rejected) a Canadian style health plan. Media Matters. Let the fear mongering continue!

He also said it would not raise the deficit.

If you believe that one I have some land in the middle of a swamp to sell ya

Do any of you guys that are against large profits have any investments??

I understand your argument about large profits by insurance companies but it seems you got a hard on for any business making large profits. I bet there are a lot of investors that lost their ass in the last year that wish the large corps they had stock in was worth what it used to. I have some GM stock also that I would love to to sell ya

 

[Accountable]

You guys are certainly devoted to mega profits for large corporations who don't give a rat's ass for you as individuals.

Not devoted to them, but I certainly don't claim any right to their profits like you do.

BTW, Obama has never proposed (in fact he rejected) a Canadian style health plan. Media Matters. Let the fear mongering continue!

YouTube - Obama on single payer health insurance

"I happen to be a proponent of a single-payer universal health care program. I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its gross national product on health care, cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that's what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single-payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. That's what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we've got to take back the White House, we've got to take back the Senate, and we've got to take back the House."

​

Every goal has short-term objectives. Inserting the gov't as an unfair competitor will destroy the insurance system. A single-payer system would only be a matter of time. Hell, he'd probably rationalize that we HAVE to shift to single-payer, like it or not.

 

[Minor Axis]

Unless I am all wet, what is being proposed in this country for Universal Health Care is not the Canadian system. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Accountable]

What is being initially proposed, and what is the ultimate goal, are far and away two different things. Of that I am convinced.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Does this mean that neither Tim nor Minor disagree with post #1 or #2?

I ask, because neither of you actually addressed them directly.

 

[Meirionnydd]

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... Continued at AmericanThinker.com, but you probably see where he's going by now.

American thinker, is quite conservative, it's not very surprising what side they're going to take in the health care debate.

The same health care debate that isn't happening anywhere else in the Western world. Because we've gotten our whole head around 'Providing health coverage for everyone and not charging them $50,000 for an operation if they don't have health insurance'' issue.

But the real pressing issue here is 'What are rights?, and how can we try to spin the definition so that we can deny health care to people and not feel bad about it'. Instead of something like 'Why do an estimated 16,000 people die per year because they cannot get access to affordable health care in the richest nation on the planet?'

Medical insurance is different than medical care. Everybody in America, be they American citizen, visiting tourist, or illegal alien has access world class health care. 85% of Americans choose to cover the possibility of financially devastating medical issues with medical insurance, but the 15% that don't, will not be allowed to simply die on the table. They'll be put back together, no questions asked, and then billed accordingly. Statistically speaking, they won't pay which hoses the 85% who do, but medical care was never the issue.

Billed accordingly. Hilarious.

'Oh yeah, I got sick and my insurer wouldn't cover it. But i'm all better now! Of course I was billed accordingly, only $5000!'

The United States doesn't have 'world class healthcare' either. Just because the United States spends twice as much on health care per capita than any other country on the planet, doesn't mean the quality of care is twice as better. A baby has a better chance of surviving in Cuba than it does in the United States.

If we give control of our healthcare to the federal government, there is very little limit on what kind of behavior they can dictate or suppress in the name of health care costs. At what point does my Friday BLT cost me $18 because of the health insurance tax levied? At what point do speeding tickets double in price because they now hold a health care addendum? Anybody here enjoy skydiving on occasion? Energy and climate change issues aside, how much of a surcharge will be added to my next Camaro because it burns evil gasoline?

I don't know. Probably never. Literally no government places a surcharge on food to help cover medical costs.

Typically, the government imposes a small (Yes, it's small. In Australia it's 1.5%) tax increase to help cover healthcare costs.

 

[Alien Allen]

So our care is bad here eh? Tell me then why Canada has lots of people come over here for treatment and their rate of deaths for cancer is 17% higher

 

[Guyzerr]

So our care is bad here eh?{/quote]
Na....... you have great health care... if you have money. If you are a have-not I'm sure it kinda stinks.

Tell me then why Canada has lots of people come over here for treatment and their rate of deaths for cancer is 17% higher

Just like you said before stats can be twisted any which way but loose.

As far as Canadians going there for treatment is concerned you know the answer to that already.

 

[Meirionnydd]

So our care is bad here eh? Tell me then why Canada has lots of people come over here for treatment and their rate of deaths for cancer is 17% higher

I'm not saying that health care in the United States is bad, but it generally pales in comparison to other nations. (That doesn't count if you're rich, obviously. But a middle-class family in the US wouldn't have as much access to their healthcare system than someone in say, the Netherlands)

Speaking of the point you made about cancer, I might add that there is a very large racial disparity with health outcomes in the United States. For example cancer, as you mentioned earlier, is 25% more prevalent for blacks than whites.

Obviously that has nothing to do with what you said, but it's something interesting to point out.