The Case of Captive Saudi Princesses.

[Stone]

[[[I did not say you wrote these lines (these are mine) ''Now stop talking from both sides of your mouth. Don't issue bloody Fatwa's like a cleric or a biased ignorant judgmental snob.'' Are you feeling okay?? Have a check up, dude!]]]

Of course they were your words.
I didn't post them, as you attempted to infer.

I expect to see more of that from you as you've obviously come to realize your sophistry defeated what ever was the goal of your thread.

You can not provide moral justification for the atrocities your culture commits against women.

I didn't need to prove western morals were better as you kept challenging them, I only had to show that in this instance, your culture has none.
None? Well, you provided nothing of substance beyond what amounts to some strange form of revenge, 'saving face', which is taken to such an extreme action that the savagery overwhelms the concept of justice.

I think this thread has been a successful debate topic.
I'm sure you feel otherwise.

 

[Stone]

[[[ You must be crazy if you won't comprehend the debate after such profuse explanation by me.
It appears you are wont to troll and stretch to a point of jittery.
It also appears you have nothing else to do but accuse others in debates?
It also appears it is overdone,,,and you need some schooling from the web...google up for more info that you want and admit you have lost]]]]]

All you have to do is what is likely imbedded in the minds of the readers, answer this question ( after all, you did make this thread a contrasts of morals between your culture and mine )

By what moral authority does your culture accept the practice of honor killings and the abuse of women as a means to save face?


PS.......thanks for essentially equating morality in your culture to revenge (saving face )
It actually has clarified a lot about your culture's value system.
Now to get you to backpedal some more, and we're almost there ( end of debate? perhaps? )

 

[mazHur]

Here are some quotes from the Quran to help you understand anything contrary to those is not Islamic.

Behavior

• argue in a kindly manner with those given earlier revelation16:125,29:46
• avoid becoming involved in matters you know nothing of17:36
• avoid grave sins and shameful deeds53:32
• avoid guesswork about one another49:12
• be generous16:90
• be just in your opinions4:58,5:8,5:42,6:152,16:90(see Judgement)
• be true and equitable4:135,5:8,25:72,55:8-9,70:33,83:1-3
• community should be moderate2:143,25:67
• conceit discouraged4:36,31:18,57:23
• don't
  • be unreasonable 16:90
  • behave shamefully 16:90
  • betray trust 8:27
  • cheat trading partner 4:29
  • chide those who seek your help 93:10
  • consider yourself pure 53:32
  • deride others 49:11, 104:1
  • mention evil things openly 4:148
  • speak ill of each other 24:12-19, 49:12, 104:1
  • spy on each other 49:12
  If you need more you can go to http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/TOPICQ/B.htm for some enlightenment.

 

[Stone]

Here are some quotes from the Quran to help you understand anything contrary to those is not Islamic.

Behavior

• argue in a kindly manner with those given earlier revelation16:125,29:46
• avoid becoming involved in matters you know nothing of17:36
• avoid grave sins and shameful deeds53:32
• avoid guesswork about one another49:12
• be generous16:90
• be just in your opinions4:58,5:8,5:42,6:152,16:90(see Judgement)
• be true and equitable4:135,5:8,25:72,55:8-9,70:33,83:1-3
• community should be moderate2:143,25:67
• conceit discouraged4:36,31:18,57:23
• don't
  • be unreasonable 16:90
  • behave shamefully 16:90
  • betray trust 8:27
  • cheat trading partner 4:29
  • chide those who seek your help 93:10
  • consider yourself pure 53:32
  • deride others 49:11, 104:1
  • mention evil things openly 4:148
  • speak ill of each other 24:12-19, 49:12, 104:1
  • spy on each other 49:12
  If you need more you can go to http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/TOPICQ/B.htm for some enlightenment.

I don't see anything there than answers this question, mazHur:

By what moral authority does your culture accept the practice of honor killings and the abuse of women as a means to save face?

 

[mazHur]

All you have to do is what is likely imbedded in the minds of the readers, answer this question ( after all, you did make this thread a contrasts of morals between your culture and mine )

By what moral authority does your culture accept the practice of honor killings and the abuse of women as a means to save face?


PS.......thanks for essentially equating morality in your culture to revenge (saving face )
It actually has clarified a lot about your culture's value system.
Now to get you to backpedal some more, and we're almost there ( end of debate? perhaps? )

[[[ Sober up and read my post below and stop accusing Islam for the bad things a few bad Muslims are doing.
I rest my case here....]]

 

[mazHur]

I don't see anything there than answers this question, mazHur:

By what moral authority does your culture accept the practice of honor killings and the abuse of women as a means to save face?

[[[Okay then stop accusing Islam for the bad things you attribute to a few bad Muslims
Quran is not responsible for the bad conduct of any Muslim ...]]]

 

[mazHur]

 

[Stone]

Your two posts #125 and 126 make no sense.

All you have to do is supply an answer, if there is one.

Is there an answer?

By what moral authority does your culture accept the practice of honor killings and the abuse of women as a means to save face?

Or is it simply a show of savagery?

If it's a show of savagery......that really messes up your thread, imo.
How can your culture be better than mine concerning the treatment of women if you have no moral authority to treat then as you do?
The best you can be is the worst we could be

 

[Stone]

That did make me laugh

 

[mazHur]

That did make me laugh

I didn't know a stone would also laugh when tickled!!

 

[mazHur]

Your two posts #125 and 126 make no sense.

All you have to do is supply an answer, if there is one.

Is there an answer?

By what moral authority does your culture accept the practice of honor killings and the abuse of women as a means to save face?

Or is it simply a show of savagery?

If it's a show of savagery......that really messes up your thread, imo.
How can your culture be better than mine concerning the treatment of women if you have no moral authority to treat then as you do?
The best you can be is the worst we could be

For the last time let me tell you it is related to 'cultural and customary' authority.....that's not Islamic.

Islam forbade killing of new born female babies which practice was rampant in those times in Arabia. Unfortunately, millions of baby girls in foetus are being killed in India without remorse,. Islam forbids it completely.

 

[Stone]

For the last time let me tell you it is related to 'cultural and customary' authority.....that's not Islamic.

Islam forbade killing of new born female babies which practice was rampant in those times in Arabia. Unfortunately, millions of baby girls in foetus are being killed in India without remorse,. Islam forbids it completely.

I think you are confused.
My understanding is there is no support in your scriptures for killing and abusing women out of revenge for the purpose of 'saving face'.
Correct me if that's wrong and post the source.

And now you are attacking the Hindu culture as an excuse for your own cultures deeds......shameful.
Own up, mazHur.

The question remains, since you made an issue of contrasting moral standards between your culture and my culture in the way women are treated.............By what moral authority does your culture accept the practice of honor killings and the abuse of women as a means to save face?

This is a logical question as you have presented your cultural position as being superior to my culture's moral position.
Since your culture does practice the accepted abuse of women, where did those moral codes derive from?
You replied earlier, 'saving face' but that's only revenge. "Face' is honor. 'Saving face' in your context is revenge for perception of lost honor. Where is the honor in abusing women?

Why not just come clean on this issue and backpedal some more and admit your intentions in this thread were pure bullshit to boost your image?

 

[The Man]

What we have our huge culteral differences....so far apart in how far they have advanced in time.
At one time here in the states wife beating was considered a domestic problem and much wasnt done about it..We evolved and provide protections for them.
The mideast is where we were centuries ago and worse...I dont expect them to catch up anytime soon.
Our women vote, drive, work and make decisions much like the man.

Values are taught and learned in the young minds...if a child is taught that a woman is an animal and observe them being treated like an animal..chances are they will grow up doing the same.
For example our culture accepts gays for the most part..in the Mideast there is no toleration...it is a teaching to hate gays.
A woman in the Mideast is for making babies and blowing a nut in.
Haveing to have permission to go anywhere..other places have to be escorted...in the places where only permission is needed they are treated like shit in public..such as having to let the men go first in a checkout at a store.

If the men think the culture sucks they have to keep quiet or suffer consequences.

Change can not happen until there is freedom...freedom of thought and expression.

Living in the Mideast is like being in a prison...speaking of unhappiness with policy and the sort could lead to severe punishment...this applies to men and women.

Those smart enough to know there is something better find small groups and "sin" together by laughing joking and checking out the West online.

Good luck though on finding a whore house or a place to gamble or a local street corner to hang out and down some booze.

If you are gay...you have troubles as you will be in the closet.
However gays are common due to the culture itself...those who are poor cant buy a wife...they end up getting satisfaction by what is available.

They just cant win...a woman out of wedlock getting pregnant will pretty much have to declare rape due to the strict culture itself.

To make matters worse...if a Muslim nation becomes the least bit westernized or people act like what we call liberals here...the rough ass Muslims start terrorizing the nation and uprisings occur with an effort to overthrow the govt.

As we can see lack of freedom causes many cultural issues.

 

[mazHur]

I think you are confused.
My understanding is there is no support in your scriptures for killing and abusing women out of revenge for the purpose of 'saving face'.
Correct me if that's wrong and post the source.

[[[[[[ yes, the Quran forbids killing of any innocent human being, that being the murder of all humanity.]]]]

And now you are attacking the Hindu culture as an excuse for your own cultures deeds......shameful.
Own up, mazHur.

[[[[Own up what?? I had been telling you Indian and Pakistani culture are 'cousins', the latter being part of India for centuries in the past. With the overwhelming majority of HIndu's in India there culture still shows its mark on our people. Pakistan has not yet become a purely Islamic country though its name suggests so. Hence, the question you attributed to 'genetic' flaw is baseless. It's rather cultural. For example culture in different provinces of Pakistan is different. In the North West live the Pashtuns, some of which are Taliban. they have their own courts or tribal juries where writ of government is sparse. In an another province there is insurgency and people there are culturally entirely different ( in Baluchistan) . Though bulk of them Muslims they do not only have a diff culture but also different psyche. Similarly, the other two provinces have their own cultures....then there are various ethnic races living here, all having their own culture and values which somewhere conflicts with the Quran teachings.
Hindus don't want baby girls and they are aborting them in the foetus by millions. Thanks to ultra sound discovery! Incidents of gang rape and other heinous crimes are rampant in India and not even 50 per cent of them are reported ...due to cultural indictment. You cannot apply your 'culture' either to India or Pakistan or any other country as your culture is NOT acknowledged as good or perfect everywhere. You can do what you like in your country or the West but don't try to impose the faux superiority of your culture on others.( neither do we ask you to accept ours) under the prevailing socio economic, ethnic and sectarina situation informed to you earlier in my posts. ]]]]]]


The question remains, since you made an issue of contrasting moral standards between your culture and my culture in the way women are treated.............By what moral authority does your culture accept the practice of honor killings and the abuse of women as a means to save face?


[[[[[ Not only women are killed for face saving people would kill men as well for their honor. You have been taught to turn the other cheek if one slaps you on the one but here it is the Shakespearian code which plays its toll:: Tooth for Tooth, eye for an eye.

Another reason for this kinda 'dark justice' by some people may be attributed to lack of rule of law and justice in the country. Due to lack of Sharia and ancient British civil and criminal law in vogue criminals escape punishment due to lack of witnesses and necessary evidence to indict them. Court cases take decades to be
decided during which evidence gets lost or confounded. Fed up with this judicial obfuscation and to carry on living in their cultural fold to save their honor, they take law into their own hands. This too could be one reason for their acts. However, just like domestic violence is hallmark of America ( google up for yerself for stats and figures) it is comparatively a negligible per cent of that crime here.]]]]]

This is a logical question as you have presented your cultural position as being superior to my culture's moral position.

[[[[[Your definition and understanding of 'morals' is not a Criteria for judging others. Your 'morals' are controlled by your government and laws...otherwise you hardly have any (ask the negroes, the Red Indians or the Mormons, to quote a few!!!!]]]]]


Since your culture does practice the accepted abuse of women, where did those moral codes derive from?

[[[[[[You fuckin' question has already been answered exhausitvely . If your little brain still can't understand it you shouldn't. It's beyond dunce judgmental people to understand simple English]]]]


You replied earlier, 'saving face' but that's only revenge. "Face' is honor. 'Saving face' in your context is revenge for perception of lost honor. Where is the honor in abusing women?

[[[[[ You haven't answered my question: What do you do to save your 'honor'?? I have amply answered your frigging babblings,,,over and over again! Stop generalizing. Women abuse is not practiced in Pakistan and the few incidences you read or hear on the CNN are oddities in a population of 200 million heads]]]]

Why not just come clean on this issue and backpedal some more and admit your intentions in this thread were pure bullshit to boost your image?

[[[[[You had better taken a bath...seems you haven't done it all your winters and dingleberries seem troubling you. Obviously you have lost the debate and now you are just trolling to save your 'honor' from the ignominy of impunity of your trolling]]]]

 

[mazHur]

What we have our huge culteral differences....so far apart in how far they have advanced in time.
At one time here in the states wife beating was considered a domestic problem and much wasnt done about it..We evolved and provide protections for them.
The mideast is where we were centuries ago and worse...I dont expect them to catch up anytime soon.
Our women vote, drive, work and make decisions much like the man.

Values are taught and learned in the young minds...if a child is taught that a woman is an animal and observe them being treated like an animal..chances are they will grow up doing the same.
For example our culture accepts gays for the most part..in the Mideast there is no toleration...it is a teaching to hate gays.
A woman in the Mideast is for making babies and blowing a nut in.
Haveing to have permission to go anywhere..other places have to be escorted...in the places where only permission is needed they are treated like shit in public..such as having to let the men go first in a checkout at a store.

If the men think the culture sucks they have to keep quiet or suffer consequences.

Change can not happen until there is freedom...freedom of thought and expression.

Living in the Mideast is like being in a prison...speaking of unhappiness with policy and the sort could lead to severe punishment...this applies to men and women.

Those smart enough to know there is something better find small groups and "sin" together by laughing joking and checking out the West online.

Good luck though on finding a whore house or a place to gamble or a local street corner to hang out and down some booze.

If you are gay...you have troubles as you will be in the closet.
However gays are common due to the culture itself...those who are poor cant buy a wife...they end up getting satisfaction by what is available.

They just cant win...a woman out of wedlock getting pregnant will pretty much have to declare rape due to the strict culture itself.

To make matters worse...if a Muslim nation becomes the least bit westernized or people act like what we call liberals here...the rough ass Muslims start terrorizing the nation and uprisings occur with an effort to overthrow the govt.

As we can see lack of freedom causes many cultural issues.

[[[[[[Muslims do not need to Westernize. What they need is Unity.

Rest of your post is bullshit, all of it being emphasizing sex and sexual freedom. Freedom of sex is embedded in the sacred institution of marriage.
To talk otherwise of it is lechery....and animal behavior. why should humans be turned into sexual maniacs in the name of so called 'freedom''??
I think both you and him are living on dole,,,,,imagine where in hell would you be if govt stopped supporting your whims??

Pakistan is NOT Saudia ... amazing you don't even know that both are distinctly different nations.

Stop itching and \
Have a nice day]]]

 

[The Man]

[[[[[[Muslims do not need to Westernize. What they need is Unity.

Rest of your post is bullshit, all of it being emphasizing sex and sexual freedom. Freedom of sex is embedded in the sacred institution of marriage.
To talk otherwise of it is lechery....and animal behavior. why should humans be turned into sexual maniacs in the name of so called 'freedom''??
I think both you and him are living on dole,,,,,imagine where in hell would you be if govt stopped supporting your whims??

Pakistan is NOT Saudia ... amazing you don't even know that both are distinctly different nations.

Stop itching and \
Have a nice day]]]

[[[[[[Muslims do not need to Westernize. What they need is Unity.

Unity from what?
Unity is what is causing the problems with your culture....Separation of unity is what is causing advancements...slowly however.
Pressure from the west..the UN and such cause awareness...many people did not realize how shitty they have it had in not been for the west.
These people are demanding rights in line with western culture.

To talk otherwise of it is lechery....and animal behavior. why should humans be turned into sexual maniacs in the name of so called 'freedom''??

Do you see the double standard?
Men can be sexual machines ...but not women.
Freedom and rights would be allowing women to do the same as men,...but the further..meaningless sex is a freedom...but freedom is not defined by meaningless sex.
Your culture has serious sexual hangups...sex is part of nature essentially no more.
Marriage is a commitment to each other but does not exist here for the purpose of allowing sex.

I think both you and him are living on dole,,,,,imagine where in hell would you be if govt stopped supporting your whims??

No govt support here other than providing public roads and the sort..I dont suck a govt tit.
While some do yes..its not like the numbers you think..those working have to support them via tax.

Pakistan is NOT Saudia

Were you not just saying that Islam needs unity?
Saudi Arabia is about as Islamic as it gets....but you just stated you preferred to be separate and are showing an easiness about SA

amazing you don't even know that both are distinctly different nations.

They are separate..but do share alot in common...haven for terrorists being one.
We could compile a rather long list...but that would only allow to lose focus of the new issue you mention of unity.

How do you claim that Islam needs unity...but at the same time want to seperate yourself from strong root Islam.
To further if you want to proclaim your women have rights..thats a western value..and nothing you will find in Islam that strong unity of Islamic culture brings.

If you want to be like the west...you guys just as well have a revolution over there...Islam wont do it..you are wanting to demand freedom..a demand for freedom is to be in the name of freedom..Forced religion is not freedom.

 

[Stone]

[[[[[[ yes, the Quran forbids killing of any innocent human being, that being the murder of all humanity.]]]]

Just as I thought.

You just acknowledged defeat in this thread.
Your culture has no moral authority for all the savage acts of honor killings and beatings/torture of the women living in your culture.

All your previous words, all your claims have been bullshit.

But let me ask this:

Since acceptance and promotion of this inhumanity, and murder, is a cultural issue, do your scriptures damn your entire culture or just what appears to be a very large portion responsible for that mindset?

 

[Stone]

..........................
To talk otherwise of it is lechery....and animal behavior. why should humans be turned into sexual maniacs in the name of so called 'freedom''??.......................................

Just pointing out that you've been bragging about your sexual conquests and leaving the forum with the visual impression you are a sex maniac

 

[Stone]

BTW, here is the correct quote:

 

[mazHur]

Hypocrisy Manifest

Obama pays Homage to Saudi King alleged to hold his daughters as hostages...Video

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