Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!!

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Vociferous rhetoric :blah:

answer the friggin question. what do you propose?? :surrender other than to just let the big business run amok.

What do you propose? I don't see it as a problem--its the rare exception--we've got 150,000,000 workers and a few thousand CEOs and of those, a small portion are making the really huge dollars. Its a non-issue--its like worrying about Bill Gates being worth billions. You either accept that as the price of an affluent society and an economy that floats all boats (or at leas the ones that want to work to be floated) or you institute socialist policies such as 90% tax rates. I know the latter would be disastrous.

and as a small business owner I can tell ya I have seen big business gobble up the little ones. pisses me off too that mine would never fit the bill. Other than mine about the only ones that are not gobbled up are the damn party stores. Shit do they ever stick together to fight off the big businesses.

Cry me a river--there are millions of problem a lot more serious than that. Again--we have laws in place to prevent unfair competition. Hostile takeovers and business getting gobbled up are part of the system--its not perfect, but it highly preferable to the alternative Minor system where every worker enjoys the good life (sarcastic rolls eyes here)--i.e., communism.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

What do you propose? I don't see it as a problem--its the rare exception--we've got 150,000,000 workers and a few thousand CEOs and of those, a small portion are making the really huge dollars. Its a non-issue--its like worrying about Bill Gates being worth billions. You either accept that as the price of an affluent society and an economy that floats all boats (or at leas the ones that want to work to be floated) or you institute socialist policies such as 90% tax rates. I know the latter would be disastrous.



Cry me a river--there are millions of problem a lot more serious than that. Again--we have laws in place to prevent unfair competition. Hostile takeovers and business getting gobbled up are part of the system--its not perfect, but it highly preferable to the alternative Minor system where every worker enjoys the good life (sarcastic rolls eyes here)--i.e., communism.

Hey is it ok to say go screw yourself

I asked what you propose. So you say do nothing. :wtf:
Come on you are not that stupid. i did not necessarily mean govt intervention. How about some other ideas to hold these CEO's accountable.

As to hostile takeovers? Nope ........... I got an example which was a little drug store at the corner back in the early 80's. They did a bang up job. Mom and Pop type of place to get prescriptions. Then CVS opens up a store across the street. and they give the owner an offer he could not refuse.

smart guy.......... he closes shop and now is the pharmacist at CVS....... :thumbdown

Small business will always be the bus that drives this country. When big business gets leverage like in this instance to control the market it is NOT good for our country.

now stick that up your pie hole for the night. I am going to probably call it a night as it is almost midnight.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Hey is it ok to say go screw yourself

I asked what you propose. So you say do nothing. :wtf:

I said I don't see a problem. In fact, a much bigger problem are all the benefits governments give union slugs--that's costing the tax payers billions of dollars in absurdly generous benefits that the rest of us have to pay for. I could care less if some company pays its CEO millions after he/she gets fired. It a free contractual agreement between parties bargaining at arm's lenghts--they make enough stupid decisions they go out of business. You can't do anything about that unless you intend to restrict their rights to freely contract (which is what the government allows unions to do)--is that what you are advocating? What's your solution.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

As to hostile takeovers? Nope ........... I got an example which was a little drug store at the corner back in the early 80's. They did a bang up job. Mom and Pop type of place to get prescriptions. Then CVS opens up a store across the street. and they give the owner an offer he could not refuse.

smart guy.......... he closes shop and now is the pharmacist at CVS....... :thumbdown

Small business will always be the bus that drives this country. When big business gets leverage like in this instance to control the market it is NOT good for our country.

now stick that up your pie hole for the night. I am going to probably call it a night as it is almost midnight.

Uhhhh--again--what are you proposing--we force the guy to keep his business open? We pass laws saying CVS can't offer the guy a job? You sound just like Minor--you think we can legislate everything. There isn't a damn thing you can do about that--its a free country--he shouldn't be forced into slavery.

Now in terms of the take over issue, as I said we have anti-trust laws--so if it was a violation by CVS, then go to the local Federal Attorney's office and lodge a complaint that you believe they violated the law--otherwise, quit whining. You and Minor are like a couple of old ladies--you whine about everything you don't think is fair. Do something about it or quit complaining.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Uhhhh--again--what are you proposing--we force the guy to keep his business open? We pass laws saying CVS can't offer the guy a job? You sound just like Minor--you think we can legislate everything. There isn't a damn thing you can do about that--its a free country--he shouldn't be forced into slavery.

Now in terms of the take over issue, as I said we have anti-trust laws--so if it was a violation by CVS, then go to the local Federal Attorney's office and lodge a complaint that you believe they violated the law--otherwise, quit whining. You and Minor are like a couple of old ladies--you whine about everything you don't think is fair. Do something about it or quit complaining.

Bull shit and you know it. I never said we should legislate anything. I asked for other ideas.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Bull shit and you know it. I never said we should legislate anything. I asked for other ideas.

I don't see the problem. We already have anti-trust laws.

As a grass roots solution, don't patronize CVS. I don't see what else you can do without violating the Constitution.

 

[Peter Parka]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

No doubt the unions want to keep the jobs. The problem is through extortive measures they force companies to move the jobs overseas when if they were more reasonable there would be a compromise. And unfortunately its not just the union stiffs that lose jobs--all the ancillary jobs go with it.

Bottom line is unions are communist organizations--it is no different in any way than a communist regime--that is they attempt to change the laws of supple and demand and interfere with free market capitalism, which ultimately results in a negative effect on labor and the economy.

No, the Unions were fighting for the miners to keep their jobs, not move them overseas. It's all very well talking about compromise but it was the Thatcher government who refused to budge an inch, not the unions.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

No, the Unions were fighting for the miners to keep their jobs, not move them overseas. It's all very well talking about compromise but it was the Thatcher government who refused to budge an inch, not the unions.

Anecdotal evidence Peter. No doubt that there are times the unions are correct in their positions. I don't know this particular circumstance but it sounds like here the unions were the in the right.

Here in the US, they are given an unfair bargaining advantage--for example they can strike and the employer can't replace them--that essentially gives them extortive powers. My belief is that they should bargain on the strength of their numbers and what they have to offer. Any employer understands that a strike will hurt and they should want to avoid it. But this "either you pay us more and give us more benefits or we don't show up for work" is absolute garbage. And like I said the worst offenders are government unions---the stuff they've extorted here in California, my kids will be paying dearly for in years to come in excessive taxation--its bullshit.

 

[Peter Parka]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

No doubt that there are times the unions are correct in their positions. I don't know this particular circumstance but it sounds like here the unions were the in the right.

:clap:clap:clap

I agree with Tim, it's a struggle between the Unions and the Government but if one of them gets all the power there's going to be bad times ahead (i.e. the Thatcher government). Basically, we need both.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Seriously-that's an utterly amorphous statement. Who decides how much of the pie makes the owner "greedy?" You? The Union? The government?

Now that is funny. According to you the only one who gets to decide is the business owner.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Now that is funny. According to you the only one who gets to decide is the business owner.

Geez I would hope the owner is the one who gets to decide. That is the privledge one has to put up with the bull shit of owning and running a business. If employees don't like it then nobody is twisting there arm to stay. If the owner is a prick then he will have continual turnover and likely poor efforts from his workers. it kind of sorts itself out.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

This is your typical Chicken or Egg discussion, and as a general rule most folks that are anti union, have never actually managed anything.

I have, here's my take:

Corporate excess is the issue, a couple of years back the CEO of FORD, claimed that the reasoning behind high vehicle prices was the cost to FORD for the medical benefits for union workers, his estimate was that $1800 dollars from every vehicle sold by FORD went to paying the high cost of medical benefits for FORD employees and members of the families of union members.

Now, let's put this into perspective:

The truck I used to own up until a month ago- 2004 Ford F-250 Supercrew 4x4, 6.0L Powerstroke

Cost to Dearborn to manufacture (coming from a procurement manager with FORD ) 16,000

Now, that shows you the benefit of mass production, $16,000 to manufacture

List price at the dealership: $46,950

That's right.........47,000 fucking dollars, now subtract the 1800 dollars for the union folks "fleecing the corporate world"

45,200 if you're a quick study......Now, where's the rest of the 29,000 fucking dollars going?

I don't know about you, but when's the last time you saw an auto plant worker living in a 1,000,000 home? Or driving a Mercedes? How about a stable full of horses?

Do you remember (Fox Mulder) how mych that Ford CEO was paid.....WHEN HE WAS FIRED? Do you remember his severance package?

Of course not, Fox News didn't want to advertise that, he did such a good job running Ford into the ground by allowing the cancellation of some of the popular vehicles in the line-up, they paid him 28million dollars...ON THE WAY OUT THE FUCKING DOOR .....With his marching papers.

Here's what I know about the union, without them, large companies would NOT have the saftey records they do right now, and don't give me OSHA, that's the biggest bunch of bafoons I have EVER seen.

In a nustshell, large corproations need to be kept in check, and don't think for a minute the government is doing it.

Now I am in a position where it wouldn't be a popular position for me to side with unions, but I see the importance. They need to be governed better, I agree with that, but they do provide a service to both the companies they support, and the workers.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Now I am in a position where it wouldn't be a popular position for me to side with unions, but I see the importance. They need to be governed better, I agree with that, but they do provide a service to both the companies they support, and the workers.

:thumbup

Unions are made up of people, good intentioned people, not communists (not the ones I'm aware of), sometimes flawed, sometimes they over reach, sometimes the leadership (like Teamsters) has an agenda that does not best serve the members, and sometimes unions walk off a cliff (as in make unreasonable demands and loose their jobs). But they are people, as a group just like the management people with all the same qualities who also are susceptible to human failings.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

:thumbup

Unions are made up of people, good intentioned people, not communists (not the ones I'm aware of), sometimes flawed, sometimes they over reach, sometimes the leadership (like Teamsters) has an agenda that does not best serve the members, and sometimes unions walk off a cliff (as in make unreasonable demands and loose their jobs). But they are people, as a group just like the management people with all the same qualities who also are susceptible to human failings.

All may be true--but a union is at its core a communist concept and a communist organization.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Corporate excess is the issue, a couple of years back the CEO of FORD, claimed that the reasoning behind high vehicle prices was the cost to FORD for the medical benefits for union workers, his estimate was that $1800 dollars from every vehicle sold by FORD went to paying the high cost of medical benefits for FORD employees and members of the families of union members.

Now, let's put this into perspective:

The truck I used to own up until a month ago- 2004 Ford F-250 Supercrew 4x4, 6.0L Powerstroke

Cost to Dearborn to manufacture (coming from a procurement manager with FORD ) 16,000

Now, that shows you the benefit of mass production, $16,000 to manufacture

List price at the dealership: $46,950

That's right.........47,000 fucking dollars, now subtract the 1800 dollars for the union folks "fleecing the corporate world"

You need an education in how to read a financial statment. The $16,000 you are referring to (and I don't know where that number comes from is very likely "Cost of Goods Sold" -- an accounting term that does not even come close to the actual total amount of the expense to get the product to market, which would consume most of that $47,000.

And as far as medical benefits, the white collar employees at Ford are all paying a significant share of their medical benefits while the union employees have it paid 100%.

Finally, that $1,800 is about 4% of the total sales value of the vehicle and an absolutely incredible 11.25% of the total cost of the vehicle (assuming your number is correct). Talk to any person knowledgeable in finance or accounting (which is obviously not you or Minor) and they will tell you that 11.25% as a componennt of cost is an absolutely humongous number--stunningly high, actually, so I can understand why the CEO was concerned. Any CEO that wouldn't be concerned about an 11.25% cost component (which has probably risen exponentially) that high deserves to be fired.

Your problem is class envy my friend (along with a deficiency in accounting and finance).

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

And actually--Ford is selling a helluva lot more $20,000 to $25,000 vehicles than $47,000. So using the same roughly 1/3 for Cost of Goods Sold, that $1,800 is an unbelievable 22 to 27% of the COG Sold of the bread and butter car sales of the company. Are you seriously going to gell me that 1/4th of the cost of a new vehicle going to health benefits for union members and their families is not a ridiculous amount?

Tell me how much working families would save on the purchase of a vehicle if they didn't have to subsidize the union extortion for medical benefits?

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

You need an education in how to read a financial statment. The $16,000 you are referring to (and I don't know where that number comes from is very likely "Cost of Goods Sold" -- an accounting term that does not even come close to the actual total amount of the expense to get the product to market, which would consume most of that $47,000.

And as far as medical benefits, the white collar employees at Ford are all paying a significant share of their medical benefits while the union employees have it paid 100%.

Finally, that $1,800 is about 4% of the total sales value of the vehicle and an absolutely incredible 11.25% of the total cost of the vehicle (assuming your number is correct). Talk to any person knowledgeable in finance or accounting (which is obviously not you or Minor) and they will tell you that 11.25% as a componennt of cost is an absolutely humongous number--stunningly high, actually, so I can understand why the CEO was concerned. Any CEO that wouldn't be concerned about an 11.25% cost component (which has probably risen exponentially) that high deserves to be fired.

Your problem is class envy my friend (along with a deficiency in accounting and finance).

Class envy:24::24:

Accounting deficiency:24::24::24::surrender

Oh I give up, I think something happens when far right wings get the old brainwashed.....It shrinks:cool

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

And actually--Ford is selling a helluva lot more $20,000 to $25,000 vehicles than $47,000. So using the same roughly 1/3 for Cost of Goods Sold, that $1,800 is an unbelievable 22 to 27% of the COG Sold of the bread and butter car sales of the company. Are you seriously going to gell me that 1/4th of the cost of a new vehicle going to health benefits for union members and their families is not a ridiculous amount?

Tell me how much working families would save on the purchase of a vehicle if they didn't have to subsidize the union extortion for medical benefits?

You tell me, you're obviously the expert on everything

The rest of us are stupid and need your teachings:unsure:

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

You see union members don't deserve medical benefits. Fox is a firm believer of every person for themselves and screw the employees. It's as simple as that. The words he uses- communist, extortion, only owners deserve the good financial life reveal a complete bias against the concept of unions, when any student of U.S./World history would know that when applied properly, unions have their place, serve the worker, and somewhat balance the interests between the owners and the employees. It also shows a complete disrespect for workers in general if they have the nerve to ask for anything.

If he is going to begrudge any worker medical benefits, he's apparently also going to begrudge them any impact they have on profits. Of course he's thrilled that owners and management should get full medical benefits because they deserve it.

To some percentage of conservatives, whether they be Republican or not, profits are the golden calf. Anything that hurts profits are bad- wages, benefits, environmental laws, regulations, you name it. You'll hear them rail against all of them. The problem is when that view takes a hard right the person looses perspective and begrudges sharing any of their hard earned gold. Imagine Mr. Krabs* but only 100x worse.

And speaking of medical, that is a whole different topic as in just why the heck to medical costs in the U.S. tower above all other countries? Yeah it's probably the union's fault...

* BTW I love Mr Krabs but I would not want to work for him.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

You see union members don't deserve medical benefits. Fox is a firm believer of every person for themselves and screw the employees. It's as simple as that. The words he uses- communist, extortion reveal a complete bias against the concept, when any student of U.S./World history would know that when applied properly, unions have their place, serve the worker, and somewhat balance the interests between the owners and the employees.

If he is going to begrudge any worker medical benefits, he's apparently also going to begrudge them any impact they have on profits. Of course he's thrilled that owners and management should get full medical benefits because they deserve it.

And speaking of medical, that is a whole different topic as in just why the heck to medical costs in the U.S. tower above all other countries? Yeah it's probably the union's fault...

He also seems to like to insult people he's debating with. Like I said, I'm through, if all he wants to do is insult folks...bahhh I'm out.

I think it's hysterical that I have an accounting defficiency, and class envy:24:

Oh God if he only knew:24:

The opposition to the freedom to assemble and protest, that's communism.

Which is basically what he stands for, the opposition to workers rights, and the ability to organize.

In the business I'm in, it's something that is dealt with a lot, and I understand accounting

Most companies have a clause, that they don't "recognize" the union as a valid part of doing busisness, but all companies know it's illegal to oppose the freedom for Americans to assemble, organize and demostrate.

Even at the level I have reached in my career, I have nothing personal against them, they are normally well trained, self policing good hearted hard working American men and women who want benefits and fair pay.

Mulder doesn't understand, because he obviously doesn't understand the "inner workings" of large corporations, that salaries are high, companies are top heavy almost to fault, and EXECUTIVES DON'T ALWAYS PAY THIER OWN BENEFITS:eek

Ask me how I know:ninja