Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!!

[Tim]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Or an airline pilot a 6 figure income! Hell, the plane flies itself--its the non-union engineers that deserve all the credit--and the money!!! :eek

You would rather some kid getting $7.50 hr flying the next plane you take? Don't be ridiculous.

Once again I see you throwing around so many generalizations, it truly shows your lack of knowledge of unions and how they can be beneficial to employers. Every argument I've seen you throw out in this thread comes right from the rights playbook. I haven't seen a single original thought in your posts...

Let me shed some light on the usefulness of unions from my personal experience.
I am a project manager for a millwork company just outside of Philadelphia. I have been in the business for over 20 years, but it's only been within the last 3 that I have a union shop working for me. We supply millions of dollars of cabinets, mouldings, reception desks, casework, panel work, etc. to the hospitals and universities in Philly. This wouldn't be possible without the help of the union.
Finding skilled or even motivated cabinet makers is near impossible. There have been times where it would take us over a year just to get one half way decent mechanic. The union solves that problem for us, they have a very extensive training and education program for the mechanics in our shop. When we fall into a very large job that is short on time, we can call them and have as many skilled mechanics show up the next day as we need, and only keep them for as long as we need them. This was never possible when I was with non union shops. This is a huge benefit to our company, never needing to put another add in the paper to hire some lazy ass unskilled worker who only ends up getting fired after a month or two.
And your argument of not being able to fire union employees... That's total bullshit. Within the last 6 months, we have let 2 of our long time employees go. They were not keeping up with quality standards and taking longer than needed to get the job completed. We called the union rep, let him know what was going to take place and had him send in replacements for them (who ended up being twice the employees they replaced)

We pay our union cabinet makers the same rate as the last shop I came from which was non-union. So the pay scales are in line with the area. I notice that the union employees for the most part have a higher work ethic than my last shop. Getting new qualified employees is very easy. Getting short term help only costs us a hourly rate, and we can get people on a days notice... that isn't even remotely possible without the union...

Hell, I could go on about this, but I'm sure that none of this will even register with you...

But I can tell you that our business does better and makes better profit because of the union.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

You would rather some kid getting $7.50 hr flying the next plane you take? Don't be ridiculous.

Once again I see you throwing around so many generalizations, it truly shows your lack of knowledge of unions and how they can be beneficial to employers. Every argument I've seen you throw out in this thread comes right from the rights playbook. I haven't seen a single original thought in your posts...

Let me shed some light on the usefulness of unions from my personal experience.
I am a project manager for a millwork company just outside of Philadelphia. I have been in the business for over 20 years, but it's only been within the last 3 that I have a union shop working for me. We supply millions of dollars of cabinets, mouldings, reception desks, casework, panel work, etc. to the hospitals and universities in Philly. This wouldn't be possible without the help of the union.
Finding skilled or even motivated cabinet makers is near impossible. There have been times where it would take us over a year just to get one half way decent mechanic. The union solves that problem for us, they have a very extensive training and education program for the mechanics in our shop. When we fall into a very large job that is short on time, we can call them and have as many skilled mechanics show up the next day as we need, and only keep them for as long as we need them. This was never possible when I was with non union shops. This is a huge benefit to our company, never needing to put another add in the paper to hire some lazy ass unskilled worker who only ends up getting fired after a month or two.
And your argument of not being able to fire union employees... That's total bullshit. Within the last 6 months, we have let 2 of our long time employees go. They were not keeping up with quality standards and taking longer than needed to get the job completed. We called the union rep, let him know what was going to take place and had him send in replacements for them (who ended up being twice the employees they replaced)

We pay our union cabinet makers the same rate as the last shop I came from which was non-union. So the pay scales are in line with the area. I notice that the union employees for the most part have a higher work ethic than my last shop. Getting new qualified employees is very easy. Getting short term help only costs us a hourly rate, and we can get people on a days notice... that isn't even remotely possible without the union...

Hell, I could go on about this, but I'm sure that none of this will even register with you...

But I can tell you that our business does better and makes better profit because of the union.

Actually, it does register--you've made excellent points about the good side of the union. I've NEVER said that unions were all bad--I think on balance they do more harm than good. But certainly one of the good things about a union is the fact that they provide skilled labor in some situations. This is especially true in the trade unions.

Now--what you need to do is make that exact same argument to Minor with regard to corporations. This whole union discussion is due to the fact the guy is so anti-corporation and anti-management that he can't see that the benefits of corporations far outweigh the negatives. In fact, a capitalist economy could not exist without the corporate structure (or at least in any meaningful manner). Your company couldn't exist without the corporate structure. Minor's employer couldn't exist without the corporate structure.

What I don't like about unions primarily is that they create a "you vs. us" mentality. That may not be the case in your company--certainly there are exceptions--but Minor's "management is evil, corrupt, and wants to screw the workers" attitude is typical of a union employee.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Union employees with a better work ethic? For the same wages? That is a new one to claim a union provides a better work ethic. Trust me as a business owner it has nothing to do with the union and everything to do with how the business is managed. Your example is an anomaly.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Union employees with a better work ethic? For the same wages? That is a new one to claim a union provides a better work ethic. Trust me as a business owner it has nothing to do with the union and everything to do with how the business is managed. Your example is an anomaly.

Good point--although I do have to concede that the skilled trade unions do a good job of training their employees and a good job of policing it. And as I mentioned I do not have anywhere near the problem with private unions as I do with government unions, which have absolutely no incentive to provide a better employee nor is there any competition. With unions, you can bust it--ship jobs overseas so they don't have the leverage. The gov't unions have been given a license to steal and our education system is the best example of a system failing because of a lack of any competition.

 

[Tim]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Actually, it does register--you've made excellent points about the good side of the union. I've NEVER said that unions were all bad--I think on balance they do more harm than good. But certainly one of the good things about a union is the fact that they provide skilled labor in some situations. This is especially true in the trade unions.

Now--what you need to do is make that exact same argument to Minor with regard to corporations. This whole union discussion is due to the fact the guy is so anti-corporation and anti-management that he can't see that the benefits of corporations far outweigh the negatives. In fact, a capitalist economy could not exist without the corporate structure (or at least in any meaningful manner). Your company couldn't exist without the corporate structure. Minor's employer couldn't exist without the corporate structure.

What I don't like about unions primarily is that they create a "you vs. us" mentality. That may not be the case in your company--certainly there are exceptions--but Minor's "management is evil, corrupt, and wants to screw the workers" attitude is typical of a union employee.

I don't believe all unions are good and beneficial, just as I don't believe that all corporations are. There is corruption on both sides, neither has the market cornered on ethical behavior.

But what I see from your posts is that unions are not good for corporate health and that is not always the case. I would rather the pilots who are entrusted with our safety are unionized... I know that unions do hold their members to a high standard and I would rather fly knowing that my pilot is not some cheap labor hired by the airlines to cut costs.

I have always held negative views concerning unions until I worked with them. I was simply amazed at how they are able to just throw bodies at a project in the city and complete it in half the time that a nonunion company could ever imagined. And when you are working on a hospital retrofit with $10,000 a day penalties for going over schedule, time is gold.

 

[Tim]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Union employees with a better work ethic? For the same wages? That is a new one to claim a union provides a better work ethic. Trust me as a business owner it has nothing to do with the union and everything to do with how the business is managed. Your example is an anomaly.

You're right, we actually provide a great work environment. We are one of the only shops in the area that has an air conditioned shop. But I always thought of union workers as lazy who only do what they need to get by. But that's not the case, I can take a project out with short lead time and they will bust their ass to get it done on schedule. Doesn't sound like the stereotypical union worker to me... :dunno

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

I was simply amazed at how they are able to just throw bodies at a project in the city and complete it in half the time that a nonunion company could ever imagined. And when you are working on a hospital retrofit with $10,000 a day penalties for going over schedule, time is gold.

Geez how does them being union mean anything. It is management that controls the work force and its productivity. Union employees do not control anything. If the non union jobs you worked at were non productive it is due to the companies management techniques.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

You're right, we actually provide a great work environment. We are one of the only shops in the area that has an air conditioned shop. But I always thought of union workers as lazy who only do what they need to get by. But that's not the case, I can take a project out with short lead time and they will bust their ass to get it done on schedule. Doesn't sound like the stereotypical union worker to me... :dunno

My experience is different. I live where unions ruled the day. And they were not great workers. My wife worked for a major grocery chain. The union stewards never protected her but the lazy ones go away with anything. Maybe it had to do with race. But with out fail slackers never were called on the carpet. They were treated with kid gloves.

 

[Tim]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Geez how does them being union mean anything. It is management that controls the work force and its productivity. Union employees do not control anything. If the non union jobs you worked at were non productive it is due to the companies management techniques.

There are 1001 reasons jobs fall behind schedule and it's usually a designer or architect problem that causes it, not labor. But when a project falls behind schedule, since it is union labor, we can call the union and have an extra 50 people show up and keep the job on schedule. When I was working with nonunion labor, that was not possible. Who the hell do you call? Your competitor? There is no pool of labor to call upon as a nonunion contractor.

And yes, we compete against nonunion companies on most projects. There are very few union only jobs in the city.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

I don't believe all unions are good and beneficial, just as I don't believe that all corporations are. There is corruption on both sides, neither has the market cornered on ethical behavior.

But what I see from your posts is that unions are not good for corporate health and that is not always the case. I would rather the pilots who are entrusted with our safety are unionized... I know that unions do hold their members to a high standard and I would rather fly knowing that my pilot is not some cheap labor hired by the airlines to cut costs.

I have always held negative views concerning unions until I worked with them. I was simply amazed at how they are able to just throw bodies at a project in the city and complete it in half the time that a nonunion company could ever imagined. And when you are working on a hospital retrofit with $10,000 a day penalties for going over schedule, time is gold.

Well again, my view is on balance unions do more harm than good--and I again emphasize the biggest problem is with government unions. Skilled trade unions I have no problem with--no problem at all paying someone who possesses unique skills or is highly skilled a good wage and generally speaking, you don't have to force management to pay good people good wages. I am sure as a manager you are happy to pay good people a fair wage with or without a union.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

The unions built their own bed due to greed. Started with the UAW and there demands going back to the 70's. At the time the Big 3 were the only game in town pretty much so the unions played hard ball. They wanted guaranteed hours , ridiculous benefit packages , rediculous wages, yada, ya da. Then when it got tough and market share was going down the drain they still played hard ball and ignored the obvious. That put pressure on suppliers and all involved to cut costs. Well the costs are cut to the bone ,, the jobs are gone and now the unions whine.

Unions serve to pad the pocket books of their elite leadership. They protect the worst of the worst workers from being legitimately fired and meanwhile do zip to protect those with honest grievances. Throw in race and it gets even worse.

The only unions left with real power are the govt ones and the teachers. once the NEA gets their ass broken and smacked into sensibility it will be a start to turning things around

I've never said or implied unions are perfect. They are composed of people, just like any organization. BTW, I'm not in the UAW, I'm in ALPA. We have our own elected representatives, employees just like ourselves who work for our company. We have no national representation who negotiates for us.

You and Fox are welcome to your opinion about what a ridiculous wage is. When UAW negotiated contracts in the last 30 years, those companies were more than able to pay their negotiated pay rates. It was good times for both employers and employees.

Well, the good days are over and unions will have to adapt, no doubt. In the airlines, Rampers who used to make $30k per year, now are making $8.50 an hour. It's no longer a career, just a low wage dead end job. Manufacturing the once bright spot for poorly educated people is going right out of the country. The parent companies made big bucks, and the workers were well paid, so it was good for everyone. Many (most?) of those good paying working class jobs are evaporating.

You and Fox might think that is wonderful, but as the standard of living falls in this country, the good times will truly be over. Business owners are not the only ones who deserve to have wonderful lives. And if you take offense at being lumped with Fox, let me know and I'll desist immediately!

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

There are 1001 reasons jobs fall behind schedule and it's usually a designer or architect problem that causes it, not labor. But when a project falls behind schedule, since it is union labor, we can call the union and have an extra 50 people show up and keep the job on schedule. When I was working with nonunion labor, that was not possible. Who the hell do you call? Your competitor? There is no pool of labor to call upon as a nonunion contractor.

But how much of that problem is caused by the unions? If a union can get a skilled laborer an extra $5 or $10 an hour who do you think they are going to attract? The best people. I don't think its necessarily the union that creates the skilled labor pool, but the union that monopolizes that pool because of their political clout.

Also, as you pointed out--since you compete with many non-union competitors, the union MUST offer something to make it worth the extra cost. So in your situation it works. But there are plenty of situations where the union has a monopoly. The bottom line is unless there is an incentive to work hard--whether there is a union or not, people aren't going to do it. Generally, unions offer a disincentive to working harder.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

You would rather some kid getting $7.50 hr flying the next plane you take? Don't be ridiculous.

Once again I see you throwing around so many generalizations, it truly shows your lack of knowledge of unions and how they can be beneficial to employers. Every argument I've seen you throw out in this thread comes right from the rights playbook. I haven't seen a single original thought in your posts...

Let me shed some light on the usefulness of unions from my personal experience.
I am a project manager for a millwork company just outside of Philadelphia. I have been in the business for over 20 years, but it's only been within the last 3 that I have a union shop working for me. We supply millions of dollars of cabinets, mouldings, reception desks, casework, panel work, etc. to the hospitals and universities in Philly. This wouldn't be possible without the help of the union.
Finding skilled or even motivated cabinet makers is near impossible. There have been times where it would take us over a year just to get one half way decent mechanic. The union solves that problem for us, they have a very extensive training and education program for the mechanics in our shop. When we fall into a very large job that is short on time, we can call them and have as many skilled mechanics show up the next day as we need, and only keep them for as long as we need them. This was never possible when I was with non union shops. This is a huge benefit to our company, never needing to put another add in the paper to hire some lazy ass unskilled worker who only ends up getting fired after a month or two.
And your argument of not being able to fire union employees... That's total bullshit. Within the last 6 months, we have let 2 of our long time employees go. They were not keeping up with quality standards and taking longer than needed to get the job completed. We called the union rep, let him know what was going to take place and had him send in replacements for them (who ended up being twice the employees they replaced)

We pay our union cabinet makers the same rate as the last shop I came from which was non-union. So the pay scales are in line with the area. I notice that the union employees for the most part have a higher work ethic than my last shop. Getting new qualified employees is very easy. Getting short term help only costs us a hourly rate, and we can get people on a days notice... that isn't even remotely possible without the union...

Hell, I could go on about this, but I'm sure that none of this will even register with you...

But I can tell you that our business does better and makes better profit because of the union.

Thanks for the Post! Don't expect any kind of a response from Fox on unions other than venom and communist plots.

ALPA has our own safety program, professional standards program, Pilot Assistance program, among others items. Actually right now pilot pay for new hires has dropped so low that all the feeder airlines are having trouble filling spots. It's simply too much training and too much money to be trained to warrant, the kind of responsibility and low pay, the Airlines are paying. It's way easier to go into finance, become a banker, engineer, or a Wall Street whizz.

One thing I'll mention about low paying jobs. When the pay gets so low, workers no longer care about the it. There is big turnover. When the snow storm comes and buries the airport, why bother going to work today?

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Business owners are not the only ones who deserve to have wonderful lives.

Yes--they are. Because without business owners the economy goes nowhere. Its EASY to be an employee--I've been both and I'd MUCH RATHER BE AN EMPLOYEE THAN A BUSINESS OWNER. When you have a system where the employees have the same or better lifestyles than the business owner, who the fuck is going to want to be a business owner? Its 60 plus hour work weeks, you have huge risks. You'd have to be an idiot to want that over being an employee.

And if you take offense at being lumped with Fox, let me know and I'll desist immediately!

Good one! :thumbup

:mad

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Thanks for the Post! Don't expect any kind of a response from Fox on unions other than venom and communist plots.

Maybe you should read my reply to his post--I even repped him on it because he provided an actual factual scenario for his position rather than rhetoric. You could take some lessons from him on how to make a point!

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Generally, unions offer a disincentive to working harder.

In airline related work, there is absolutely no truth to this statement. There is a high standard that is expected and enforced. The flight is scheduled to go at 8am. Imagine me saying oh, I think I'll show up at 8:30. I'd be in the Chief Pilots office dancing doing a rug dance in no time. Imagine every so often I don't like flying precise ILS approaches, so I allow the altitude to veer off several hundred feet. I can tell you with absolute confidence your union assertions about work ethics don't apply to the airlines.

And I'm curious, on the auto assembly lines, I assume all those people must be working 15 minutes every hour- lazy bastards!

I just don't know where you got your blanket cynical view unions.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Originally Posted by Minor Axis
Business owners are not the only ones who deserve to have wonderful lives.

Yes--they are.

Let that one slip out of the bag huh? Look folks at this response. Ok so BUSINESS OWNERS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO DESERVE WONDERFUL LIVES: Chap 1 from the world according to Fox.

Businesses are a partnership between the owner and the employees. Yes it's the owner's idea, but it's the employees who make-it-happen. And the employees always have valuable input. You know it's a symbiotic relationship. Without the head the body dies, without the body, the head dies. I'm sorry but the workers don't have to be nor should be slaves for the owner. The arrangement only works if it benefits everyone.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Let me shed some light on the usefulness of unions from my personal experience. I am a project manager for a millwork company just outside of Philadelphia.

[offtopic]

I grew up in that area (Jersey) and went to college at LaSalle--many boat parties on the Surekill, late night runs to Pat's, etc. Was a big Phillies, Eagles, and Sixer's fan. Now I am an Angels and ****cough****, Laker's fan (don't say it!!!! :mad). In fact, we'll be back to North Jersey and then to Philly to visit the relatives this summer.

Where is the plant located?

[/offtopic]

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

In airline related work, there is absolutely no truth to this statement. There is a high standard that is expected and enforced. The flight is scheduled to go at 8am. Imagine me saying oh, I think I'll show up at 8:30. I'd be in the Chief Pilots office dancing doing a rug dance in no time. Imagine every so often I don't like flying precise ILS approaches, so I allow the altitude to veer off several hundred feet. I can tell you with absolute confidence your union assertions about work ethics don't apply to the airlines.

And I'm curious, on the auto assembly lines, I assume all those people must be working 15 minutes every hour- lazy bastards!

I just don't know where you got your blanket cynical view unions.

Of course they are lazy. The work 50 minutes on the hour probably at best. That is what you get when an unskilled person is treated as a skilled person. You would be surprised at what they do with that 10 minutes also I bet.

Face it the airline industry is heavily regulated. and shows ya how much good that is doing. They are currently according to the news breaking records for lousy service and not being on time.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Face it the airline industry is heavily regulated. and shows ya how much good that is doing. They are currently according to the news breaking records for lousy service and not being on time.

Did I ever tell you about our money grubbing, greedy bastard owners? They play a part in this.