Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!!

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Fox Mulder

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Let that one slip out of the bag huh? Look folks at this response. Ok so BUSINESS OWNERS ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO DESERVE WONDERFUL LIVES: Chap 1 from the world according to Fox.

Businesses are a partnership between the owner and the employees. Yes it's the owner's idea, but it's the employees who make-it-happen. And the employees always have valuable input. You know it's a symbiotic relationship. Without the head the body dies, without the body, the head dies. I'm sorry but the workers don't have to be nor should be slaves for the owner. The arrangement only works if it benefits everyone.

I let nothing slip. I assumed by "wonderful life" you meant financially. Business owners deserve the lion's share of the profits, plain and simple. The system will not work any other way. Employees deserve what they are worth on an hourly basis. They invest no capital--they trade their time for a wage.

Smart business owners allow employees to invest in the business--give them stock options--allow them to work for stock options in lieu of pay and take a stake in the company--those people will enjoy the successes of the business.

With unions, not of that is going to happen.
 
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Tim

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

[offtopic]

I grew up in that area (Jersey) and went to college at LaSalle--many boat parties on the Surekill, late night runs to Pat's, etc. Was a big Phillies, Eagles, and Sixer's fan. Now I am an Angels and ****cough****, Laker's fan (don't say it!!!! :mad). In fact, we'll be back to North Jersey and then to Philly to visit the relatives this summer.

Where is the plant located?

[/offtopic]

It's funny you mention LaSalle... I brought home a set of prints for a LaSalle project I need to bid this week-end.
 

Alien Allen

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Did I ever tell you about our money grubbing, greedy bastard owners? They play a part in this. :D
I know.... It is a real pisser when people get rich.. :D

I want one of them golden parachutes :p
 

Minor Axis

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

I let nothing slip. I assumed by "wonderful life" you meant financially.

I got news for you bub, in big corporations there's enough money flowing that most employees can live the good life. There is absolutely no standard that dictates that owners should be fabulously wealthy on the backs of their employees. Just admit, you'd love to see the 1800s return in full force, titans of industry, worker slaves, no works rules, child labor, etc, etc. Man it's written all over your face...
 

Minor Axis

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Smart business owners allow employees to invest in the business--give them stock options--allow them to work for stock options in lieu of pay and take a stake in the company--those people will enjoy the successes of the business.

With unions, not of that is going to happen.

Oh yeah, is that why I have stock options?
 

COOL_BREEZE2

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Not to sound argumentative, but in some companies, they are very much needed. Lawyers are expensive and a long drawn out exercise while your out of a job. Unions ensure you get a fair shake; The government? I can tell your kidding about that. If it's not sexual harrasement or racially related, the government does not get involved.

I agree with this.
 

Alien Allen

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

The only thing a union assures is that they take a percentage of what you earn.
 

COOL_BREEZE2

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

I got news for you bub, in big corporations there's enough money flowing that most employees can live the good life. There is absolutely no standard that dictates that owners should be fabulously wealthy on the backs of their employees. Just admit, you'd love to see the 1800s return in full force, titans of industry, worker slaves, no works rules, child labor, etc, etc. Man it's written all over your face...

Generally, business owners take the greater financial risk. They do deserve a bigger share of the pie.
 

COOL_BREEZE2

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

The only thing a union assures is that they take a percentage of what you earn.

But they have to in order to survive. How else would they be able to seek your interest if needed to?
Everything costs money. An employee belonging to a union is like an insurance.
 

Alien Allen

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Generally, business owners take the greater financial risk. They do deserve a bigger share of the pie.
Not if you are a liberal. They want to want to divy it up ala socialism.

ofcourse the business owner is the one with the most to lose.
 

Minor Axis

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Generally, business owners take the greater financial risk. They do deserve a bigger share of the pie.

I've never said or implied they did not deserve a bigger share of the pie, just not to be greedy bastards. ;)

Not if you are a liberal. They want to want to divy it up ala socialism.

Absolutely not true.
 

Alien Allen

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Ok Minor I don't like working my ass off trying to make payroll while some CEO makes Millions either. But what is your solution? Perhaps you have stated something in that light before so excuse me if I missed it being a newbie here.
 

Fox Mulder

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

I got news for you bub, in big corporations there's enough money flowing that most employees can live the good life. There is absolutely no standard that dictates that owners should be fabulously wealthy on the backs of their employees. Just admit, you'd love to see the 1800s return in full force, titans of industry, worker slaves, no works rules, child labor, etc, etc. Man it's written all over your face...

Uhhhh--I got news for you bub--no there is not. Do the math. Labor (payroll) is the largest expense in most of those companies. If you gave every employee even a 25% raise, it would bankrupt the company.

Seriously--have you EVER actually looked at a financial statement (income statement). Let's take Southwest Airlines since that's your industry and they've been one of the most successful if not the most successful airlines over the past decade. In 2007 they had operating Revenue of 9.9 billion and expenses of 8.6 billion and a net income 645 million. Now I am using the airline industry to illustrate the absurdity of your statements because that industy's salaries and wages expense is lower than most industies. 37% of their expenses go to salaries and wages--see here:

Southwest Airlines plotting new strategic course | Dallas Morning News | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Business News

Most companies its significantly higher than 37 percent. Obviously they have huge overhead in their planes and equipment. Many comapnies operate with far lower capital costs and as such their wages and salaries are much higher cost components--often more than 50%. Certainly most service industries fall into that category.

So even if took the most successful airline which turned a pretty good net profit margin of 5.8% (the oil industries record profits are about 9% btw), and raised their salaries and wages by only 25%, they go from a 645 million profit to a 150 million loss. Now certainly a person making $40,000 a year isn't going to be enjoying the "good life" by a $10,000 a year raise (and the stockholders would can the board of directors if they ever approved of a 25% across the board raise in any company regardless of income).

Now this isn't counting the fact that many of these companies cycle from losses for a number of years, to profits and losses. Very few of them escape poor performance years.

Now if you were to increase the average salaries of companies employee by 25% in just about any company in the country and you'd bankrupt it unless it was in an industry where the cost could be passed along to the consumers. But therein lies again your utter and complete failure to comprehend basic economics. In those industies where the additional costs could be passed along to the consumer, prices would simply go up and the 25% raise would effectively be cancelled out by the cost of living increase.

These are rather stark and obvious flaws in your logic that I see you continually making. It again demonstrates a complete lack of any understanding of supply and demand. You can't just raise everyone's salaries so they all are "enjoying the good life." Its economically impossible to do that. Surely you must understand that?

BTW--you can get all those earnings figures on Southwest from MSN Moneyl

Seriously Minor--take stock investing course or an economics course--you wouldn't be making such ridiculous statements if you actually understood the slim profit margins most companies operate with.
 

Fox Mulder

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

I've never said or implied they did not deserve a bigger share of the pie, just not to be greedy bastards. ;)

Why don't you start your own company then--I want to be the first employee enrolled in this magical organization of yours that can provide all of its employees the "good life!" In fact, if you can prove to me you can do that, I'll find you investors that will put up billions.
 

Fox Mulder

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

I've never said or implied they did not deserve a bigger share of the pie, just not to be greedy bastards. ;)

Seriously-that's an utterly amorphous statement. Who decides how much of the pie makes the owner "greedy?" You? The Union? The government? Its a ridiculous statement--one man's treasure is another man's garbage. That's the whole point of our system--reward for risk. If you want the good life, invest your life savings in a company and go for broke. Or work your way up in management to become a CEO. Honestly, its like saying that we should pay some journeyman athlete almost the same as the best in the world is paid. CEOs are CEOs because they have extremely unique talents--talents you don't possess, which is why you aren't running the company. If you were running the company, it would be bankrupt in 6 months and everyone would be out of a job. How much is a CEO worth that keeps a company profitable and keeps 100,000 people employed thereby? You just are unable to fathom the laws of economics and the reasons why you and me and Alien aren't worth millions of dollars--because we are all average Joes. The difference is Alien and me understand why while you whine and complain about the fact a talented manager or financial genius is making a lot more money than you. Its supply and demand-these people make that money because they are in very short supply. There are a lot more people that can do your job so that makes you worth a lot less. Deal with it--stop bad mouthing your employer--if you don't want to take a risk to get rich, don't begrudge the people that do.
 

Alien Allen

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Mulder I do have a problem with some of your presentation. We have seen many companies that hire a new CEO who then wrecks the company. only to get a sweet pay off as they kick his ass out the door.

K-Mart was a storied company in my area. Then entered troubled times. They hired a guy who made it worse. He got a sweet ass payoff to leave as they went bankrupt. I think there is a fine line about how some of the big business needs to have some controls. no idea what as i am libertarian but this shit needs to stop.




 

Fox Mulder

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Mulder I do have a problem with some of your presentation. We have seen many companies that hire a new CEO who then wrecks the company. only to get a sweet pay off as they kick his ass out the door.

K-Mart was a storied company in my area. Then entered troubled times. They hired a guy who made it worse. He got a sweet ass payoff to leave as they went bankrupt. I think there is a fine line about how some of the big business needs to have some controls. no idea what as i am libertarian but this shit needs to stop.

So what representation did I make in that regard? What you fail to understand is again the supply and demand. Why does Kobe Bryant and LeBron James get paid so much? Because they do things no one else can do. When a CEO is hired by a company, he/she doesn't walk in there with an "at will" contract. They negotiate with a company on a long term contract so if they get fired, the company has to buy them out of the contract. That's why you see those payoffs. So what's the answer to that? Hire someone much cheaper. But guess what--what's the chances that person is going to do as good a job? Not nearly as good. It all comes down to supply and demand. I don't like anyone earning millions of dollars, but that's how the capitalistic system works. There's no way to change that unless you want to institute socialism. And the left wing wackos are always beating that drum--they want to institute salary caps and "windfall profit" taxes--ludicrous stuff that you couldn't get any but the most radical left wing economist to buy into. Windfall profit taxes are another ridiculous left wing ploy that appeals to people like Minor--he'd vote for that in a heartbeat because he doesn't understand the economic effect of it. Just like minimum wage--it appeals to people's emotions, but the economic effect is the opposite of what people think it is.
 

Fox Mulder

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

Mulder I do have a problem with some of your presentation.

BTW--who give a rat's ass if you have a problem with my presentation!!! Go whine to Linskyjack if you don't like it! ;)
 

Fox Mulder

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

And another thing-get rid of that stupid avitar--you're an alien not a devil.

;)
 

Alien Allen

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Re: Supreme Court Strikes Down Union Attempt to Abridge Employer Free Speech Rights!!

So what representation did I make in that regard? What you fail to understand is again the supply and demand. Why does Kobe Bryant and LeBron James get paid so much? Because they do things no one else can do. When a CEO is hired by a company, he/she doesn't walk in there with an "at will" contract. They negotiate with a company on a long term contract so if they get fired, the company has to buy them out of the contract. That's why you see those payoffs. So what's the answer to that? Hire someone much cheaper. But guess what--what's the chances that person is going to do as good a job? Not nearly as good. It all comes down to supply and demand. I don't like anyone earning millions of dollars, but that's how the capitalistic system works. There's no way to change that unless you want to institute socialism. And the left wing wackos are always beating that drum--they want to institute salary caps and "windfall profit" taxes--ludicrous stuff that you couldn't get any but the most radical left wing economist to buy into. Windfall profit taxes are another ridiculous left wing ploy that appeals to people like Minor--he'd vote for that in a heartbeat because he doesn't understand the economic effect of it. Just like minimum wage--it appeals to people's emotions, but the economic effect is the opposite of what people think it is.
Vociferous rhetoric :blah: :D

answer the friggin question. what do you propose?? :surrender other than to just let the big business run amok. :(

and as a small business owner I can tell ya I have seen big business gobble up the little ones. pisses me off too that mine would never fit the bill. Other than mine about the only ones that are not gobbled up are the damn party stores. Shit do they ever stick together to fight off the big businesses. :D
 
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