Senate Scheduled to Violate Constitution

[dt3]

Tell me Tim, how does FORCING the American people to buy healthcare or face heavy fines even pass the smell test? Can you name one other good or service the federal government has ever mandated that we must have, even if we don't want it? The very essence of our Constitution is freedom of personal choice. Under this bill, there is no personal choice. Get healthcare OR ELSE. OR ELSE is not an choice. Remember back when Britain said buy our tea OR ELSE? Didn't work out did it? This is no better and no worse than that. It's simply an out of touch government trying to impose it's will.

 

[sierrabravo]

Obama now: His answer to the C-Span part sure doesn't sound like what he promised:

YouTube - Pres. Obama on Transparent Health Care Negotiations and C-SPAN

I would have said: "there were pictures taken but not a list published? OK... that didn't answer my question..."

 

[Accountable]

The 10th amendment states:

But the constitution addresses general welfare and that taxes can be imposed. So they are in their constitutional rights to tax us for our general welfare. ie health care

And no one is proposing a federal take over of health care.

By "addresses general welfare" I assume you mean Article 1 Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; ...​

While Congress collects money to provide for the common defense, it doesn't regulate the military. Why should collecting money to provide for general welfare translate into this massive takeover and micromanagement?

 

[MoonOwl]

My arbitrary political comment for the day:

Scheduled to violate our Constitution?

Shit, they did that years ago... Why stop now? We're certainly not making them stop. Nor will we. They count on that fact.....

As an aside, Happy Winter Solstice

*coughs and spits out a bit of SheepsWool*

 

[Accountable]

Sorry, shoulda added "again" to the title.

 

[MoonOwl]

Sorry, shoulda added "again" to the title.

:cool

Sucks don't it? That's about all I can say anymore.......... Except we as a collective deserve what we get as we keep reelecting these people into office and any newcomers are then subjected to the same bullshit.

It makes one wonder exactly whom our Congress is listening to because it certainly isn't WePeeps.

At least Ron Paul had the stones to admit publicly that he wasn't even sure if he would be immune from being assimilated into the sold-out, corrupted mess that is our government if elected President...... That should have been everyone's wake up call as to how bad the system is at this point.:willy_nilly: The proof surrounds us if we choose to see it.......

 

[Alien Allen]

been going downhill ever since congress with the aiding and abetting of the supreme court bastardized the commerce clause.

Game congress free reign to do whatever they please.

 

[Accountable]

Maybe it's time to tear it down and rebuild again.

 

[Tim]

By "addresses general welfare" I assume you mean Article 1 Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; ...​

While Congress collects money to provide for the common defense, it doesn't regulate the military. Why should collecting money to provide for general welfare translate into this massive takeover and micromanagement?

Massive takeover and micromanagement of health care? What the hell are you smoking?
Show me any part of this proposed bill that is a take over or where it micromanages.

If this bill is so terrible, then why did the AMA come out and fully support it today?

 

[Alien Allen]

Massive takeover and micromanagement of health care? What the hell are you smoking?
Show me any part of this proposed bill that is a take over or where it micromanages.

If this bill is so terrible, then why did the AMA come out and fully support it today?

The AMA no doubt got some concessions that are buried in the minutae. Same as everybody else is guying buyed off

 

[dt3]

Tell me Tim, how does FORCING the American people to buy healthcare or face heavy fines even pass the smell test? Can you name one other good or service the federal government has ever mandated that we must have, even if we don't want it? The very essence of our Constitution is freedom of personal choice. Under this bill, there is no personal choice. Get healthcare OR ELSE. OR ELSE is not an choice. Remember back when Britain said buy our tea OR ELSE? Didn't work out did it? This is no better and no worse than that. It's simply an out of touch government trying to impose it's will.

Come on Tim, you can't reply to everybody else and not me

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I was under the impression that PUBLIC OPTION was a goner. IN my opinion, that's a vast improvement over the original bill. And Tim, the reason the AMA bought it, I can assure you is because there is going to be MAJOR PORK for them. You don't remember when he tried to close a behind the curtain deal with them and they told him to get fucked?

That was while public option was still on the table. Obviously with him side-stepping the Chamber of Commerce, and well anyone else who doesn't support his agenda, he has made some sweetheart deals. Because we live around, and associate with dozens of doctors who have read the bill lock stock and barrel, and state that even with the public option gone, it's a nightmare.

So who's the best judge? A chemical engineer from Houston? A cabinet maker from PA? Or a person who's dedicated their entire life to medicine?

 

[dt3]

So who's the best judge? A chemical engineer from Houston? A cabinet maker from PA? Or a person who's dedicated their entire life to medicine?

Obviously a community organizer from Illinois

 

[Tim]

Come on Tim, you can't reply to everybody else and not me

Do you own car insurance because you want it, or because it's the law? Try driving your car without insurance and see how far that gets you. You are required by law to carry car insurance because it's a burden on everyone if you don't have it and get into an accident, same can be said with health insurance.
Right now I pay on average $1500 extra each year in health insurance to cover the idiots that don't have it. How is that fair for all the people that do pay for health coverage?

The way the system is set up right now, you can get health coverage without paying into the system. That puts the burden on the rest of us. So I buy into the idea that everyone should have some form of coverage... But not having any sort of public plan to choose from and fining people for not having it is a pretty shitty way of accomplishing it. This is the part of the bill I'm not very happy with. Hell, if anything is unconstitutional about this bill, it's this. There is a very good chance that it will be challenged in court and I can see where it would be over turned.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Obviously a community organizer from Illinois

:24::24:

I've been holding out on rep....I can do that no longer:24:

I spit my beer out:mad

 

[Tim]

The AMA no doubt got some concessions that are buried in the minutae. Same as everybody else is guying buyed off

I'm banking on the belief that the AMA is an upstanding organization. And I'm not even sure how you would go about "paying" them off.

I was under the impression that PUBLIC OPTION was a goner. IN my opinion, that's a vast improvement over the original bill. And Tim, the reason the AMA bought it, I can assure you is because there is going to be MAJOR PORK for them. You don't remember when he tried to close a behind the curtain deal with them and they told him to get fucked?

That was while public option was still on the table. Obviously with him side-stepping the Chamber of Commerce, and well anyone else who doesn't support his agenda, he has made some sweetheart deals. Because we live around, and associate with dozens of doctors who have read the bill lock stock and barrel, and state that even with the public option gone, it's a nightmare.

So who's the best judge? A chemical engineer from Houston? A cabinet maker from PA? Or a person who's dedicated their entire life to medicine?

I'm putting my money behind the AMA.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Do you own car insurance because you want it, or because it's the law? Try driving your car without insurance and see how far that gets you. You are required by law to carry car insurance because it's a burden on everyone if you don't have it and get into an accident, same can be said with health insurance.
Right now I pay on average $1500 extra each year in health insurance to cover the idiots that don't have it. How is that fair for all the people that do pay for health coverage?

The way the system is set up right now, you can get health coverage without paying into the system. That puts the burden on the rest of us. So I buy into the idea that everyone should have some form of coverage... But not having any sort of public plan to choose from and fining people for not having it is a pretty shitty way of accomplishing it. This is the part of the bill I'm not very happy with. Hell, if anything is unconstitutional about this bill, it's this. There is a very good chance that it will be challenged in court and I can see where it would be over turned.

Being forced to have vehicle insurance is criminal too Tim. How can you cite legislation that that is clearly a racket, to support the passage of legislation that is clearly...well the same.

And this time it's at the federal level..

 

[dt3]

Do you own car insurance because you want it, or because it's the law? Try driving your car without insurance and see how far that gets you. You are required by law to carry car insurance because it's a burden on everyone if you don't have it and get into an accident, same can be said with health insurance.
Right now I pay on average $1500 extra each year in health insurance to cover the idiots that don't have it. How is that fair for all the people that do pay for health coverage?

Car insurance isn't mandated by the FEDERAL government, which is why I believe it's perfectly within the Constitutional limits. I feel the same way about healthcare, it should be handled at the state level.

The way the system is set up right now, you can get health coverage without paying into the system. That puts the burden on the rest of us. So I buy into the idea that everyone should have some form of coverage... But not having any sort of public plan to choose from and fining people for not having it is a pretty shitty way of accomplishing it. This is the part of the bill I'm not very happy with. Hell, if anything is unconstitutional about this bill, it's this. There is a very good chance that it will be challenged in court and I can see where it would be over turned.

Glad to see you're not totally gone yet

So were you being honest when you said:

Oh, and go google debates on whether health care reform as it's being proposed is unconstitutional or not. There are not many people who think it is and the argument is very weak when arguing that it is.

Do you think it's a weak argument, or were you just hoping nobody would come up with that particular "talking point"?

 

[retro]

If this bill is so terrible, then why did the AMA come out and fully support it today?

The AMA represents a very small subsection of physicians when you compare their numbers to the number of physicians in this country. So please don't throw it out there as it being more important than it actually is.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I'm banking on the belief that the AMA is an upstanding organization. And I'm not even sure how you would go about "paying" them off.



I'm putting my money behind the AMA.

It wasn't a conspiracy Tim, they told the general public he offered them a large sum of federal funding to back the original bill.

It was never aired on your news though..Bottom line is you can get an organization to say whatever you want.