Republican Judgement

[The Man]

I mean how more expensive are these cabinets that non union

 

[Tim]

I mean how more expensive are these cabinets that non union

Exactly, you don't have a clue

 

[Accountable]

Come on now, we have talked about this before.

The cabinet makers union is absolutely invaluable to the work I do. I have worked at two businesses that had a non-union shop and one that had a unionized shop. The advantages of working here with union labor is 10 times better. We are able to make more money, schedule labor better and we have a pool of professionally trained employees to choose from.

My job would be a nightmare without the union labor in the shop

The stagehand union in Las Vegas is very useful. They act as a temp agency for conventions, since no one can justify employing them full time. The setup is great for everyone - prescreened stagehands on demand for one side, steady employment in a volatile environment for the other side.

 

[The Man]

A Union can be useful for non stationary jobs ..as it coordinates your next job ...water tower repair...pipeline work. etc
But I don't see a use for in in cabinet making..its not a traveling job

 

[The Man]

Exactly, you don't have a clue

So how much more are these guys paid than non union Tim?
Be sure to add in benefits , insurance ,social insurance.unemployment insurance etc.
Does the wood come from union places?...Do you use union only drivers as well?
I mean if you insist on union why not go union all the way.You are management....make that call..fuck the costs

 

[Tim]

The stagehand union in Las Vegas is very useful. They act as a temp agency for conventions, since no one can justify employing them full time. The setup is great for everyone - prescreened stagehands on demand for one side, steady employment in a volatile environment for the other side.

It's the same with our cabinet makers union here. I will get projects from $10,000 to $1.5 million. I can staff the shop with as many people as I need with a phone call. So when we are slow, there may only be 5 guys in the shop but when we are really busy and need to make a deadline (everything is under very tight schedules here) I can make a phone call and have 20 people on the floor the next morning. I'm able to request apprentices (an extra pair of hands) all the way up to journeyman with over 15 years experience. The per hour rate is in line with experience. So I can customize the workforce to the needs of the job.

The day the job is done I send them home.

The other shops I worked at did not have this flexibility and when things slowed down (typically between big jobs) we would have to carry their payroll. And if things got really busy there was no option of bringing in more bodies to help. It was a real handicap to the business model

 

[Alien Allen]

In Detroit the unions have had an impact on people having shows at the Cobo Hall

If you want to have a small show there you can forget it. Set up costs are absurd as nobody moves anything unless there is a union worker doing it.

They used to have a Home and Garden Show there and due to the costs they left. If you had a booth and had some small crap to bring to it you could not do it yourself.

Unions do have an impact on much more than we think

 

[The Man]

No you idiot, I am not union.

I am a project manager, ie management. The guys in the shop who build the products are union.

And I have heard you spout off about unions post after post without a single ounce of truth. You are so far off the mark, it's not even worth discussing it with you. I work with unions and union labor every single day, so I should know what I'm talking about. Where as you don't have a fucking clue. You base your opinions off bullshit propaganda, not real world experience.

And I have heard you spout off about unions post after post without a single ounce of truth.

Such as?

I work with unions and union labor every single day, so I should know what I'm talking about

So? Point to my posts where I am wrong then tim.

 

[Tim]

Be sure to add in benefits , insurance ,social insurance.unemployment insurance etc.
Does the wood come from union places?...Do you use union only drivers as well?
I mean if you insist on union why not go union all the way.You are management....make that call..fuck the costs

So how much more are these guys paid than non union Tim?

the costs are the same, union vs non-union in this area. Our shop joined the union 7 years ago and their pay rate didn't change, they were already making more than was required of the union. We technically could have reduced their pay to union rate once they joined, but we didn't. As far as benefits, insurance, vacation pay, sick pay, retirement etc. It was pretty much a wash as far as costs, but it was much easier on the books since the union takes care of all of that out of the dues. So when we hire a guy, we pay his hourly rate and an hourly rate to the union to cover all of the other costs.

So your bullshit assumption that union labor costs us more money is just that, bullshit. You talk out your ass without any facts to back it up.

 

[The Man]

In Detroit the unions have had an impact on people having shows at the Cobo Hall

If you want to have a small show there you can forget it. Set up costs are absurd as nobody moves anything unless there is a union worker doing it.

They used to have a Home and Garden Show there and due to the costs they left. If you had a booth and had some small crap to bring to it you could not do it yourself.

Unions do have an impact on much more than we think

We sent 40 lineman to help with hurricane sandy....Was stopped in our tracks
"You guys are are not in our union will have to go somewhere else"
Drove up there on their own time.
With company trucks ready to roll.

 

[Tim]

So? Point to my posts where I am wrong then tim.

Pretty much everything you said in this post

You do understand that when wages goes up..the prices of good and services goes up?...you haven't made the gain you think you have.
Prices are determined by labor....you are not going to change this.
A unions goal is to squeeze every available dollar from the employee.
Unions cause unemployment...with increased labor cost they have to make due with less employees in some cases.
Unions cause consumer fear...as they are hesitant to buy a product when said people are on strike.
Unions damage company customer relations...when people go on strike,,products are not being made nothing pisses you off that not getting that million dollar machine you need and now an entire project is held up...cascading to more people not being able to work.
Unions are a further cause of unemployment...as less people are now qualified for a job...as requirement is to be union.
Unions can cause hiring of less qualified employees as the pool of qualified has been shrunk as a requirement in union.
Unions restrict job duties complicating a stream line process....adding to cost.
Unions defy supply and demand principal in regard to cost and demand.

A wage should not be determined by what one thinks he should get {Union}
But by supply and demand.

An extreme example can be as simple as say a grocery store that is union....all they have to do is demand 40 bucks an hour and strike...you either pay it...or pay someone to go beat some ass{union leaders}

An outside force {union} should never be able to run the finances of a company...which is exactly what they are doing with wages.

Unions further slow growth as they eat into company profits thus slowing growth...with slowed growth they aren't opening up new locations and hiring more people.

Unions reduce the volume of goods and services as they cause prices to be higher..thus people buy else where.

Unions cause an unfair advantage to non union...so thus we should need union for all jobs to be fair.
Minimum wage would be off the hook...prices for everything would be off the hook.
You would have less purchase power with your dollar and be very poor as a result.

 

[The Man]

the costs are the same, union vs non-union in this area. Our shop joined the union 7 years ago and their pay rate didn't change, they were already making more than was required of the union. We technically could have reduced their pay to union rate once they joined, but we didn't. As far as benefits, insurance, vacation pay, sick pay, retirement etc. It was pretty much a wash as far as costs, but it was much easier on the books since the union takes care of all of that out of the dues. So when we hire a guy, we pay his hourly rate and an hourly rate to the union to cover all of the other costs.

So your bullshit assumption that union labor costs us more money is just that, bullshit. You talk out your ass without any facts to back it up.

If costs are the same and no benefits what is the use of the union?
You are telling me that you are not paying these guys more after everything is paid verses non union...I may have to say bullshit tim.
And you wonder why you get dogged....bullshit

 

[The Man]

Pretty much everything you said in this post

Point em out and lets discuss them tim...pick one and lets go with it
Then lets go to the next item

 

[The Man]

You do understand that when wages goes up..the prices of good and services goes up?...you haven't made the gain you think you have.
Prices are determined by labor....you are not going to change this.
A unions goal is to squeeze every available dollar from the employee.
1 Unions cause unemployment...with increased labor cost they have to make due with less employees in some cases.

2 Unions cause consumer fear...as they are hesitant to buy a product when said people are on strike.

3 Unions damage company customer relations...when people go on strike,,products are not being made nothing pisses you off that not getting that million dollar machine you need and now an entire project is held up...cascading to more people not being able to work.

4 Unions are a further cause of unemployment...as less people are now qualified for a job...as requirement is to be union.

5 Unions can cause hiring of less qualified employees as the pool of qualified has been shrunk as a requirement in union.

5 Unions restrict job duties complicating a stream line process....adding to cost.

6 Unions defy supply and demand principal in regard to cost and demand.

7 A wage should not be determined by what one thinks he should get {Union}
But by supply and demand.

8 An extreme example can be as simple as say a grocery store that is union....all they have to do is demand 40 bucks an hour and strike...you either pay it...or pay someone to go beat some ass{union leaders}

9 An outside force {union} should never be able to run the finances of a company...which is exactly what they are doing with wages.

10 Unions further slow growth as they eat into company profits thus slowing growth...with slowed growth they aren't opening up new locations and hiring more people.

10 Unions reduce the volume of goods and services as they cause prices to be higher..thus people buy else where.

11 Unions cause an unfair advantage to non union...so thus we should need union for all jobs to be fair.
Minimum wage would be off the hook...prices for everything would be off the hook.
You would have less purchase power with your dollar and be very poor as a result.

 

[Tim]

If costs are the same and no benefits what is the use of the union?
You are telling me that you are not paying these guys more after everything is paid verses non union...I may have to say bullshit tim.

There are MANY benefits.
1. This field of work is very volatile with many ups and down since project size and location change regularly. When our shop slows down and we send a worker back to the union hall, they are sent out to another shop that needs help. This keeps the union worker continually employed when individual shops can't do that.
2. The union takes care of all the training, this takes the burden off the employer
3. If you have a problem with a worker with either his work attitude or his skill level you can just send him back to the hall
4. Employers can staff individual jobs with the proper sized workforce with the correct level of skill set. This is an enormous savings in labor cost and headache.
5. The union representatives will bring work to us

We compete with non-union shops every single day and our prices are lower sometimes and sometimes they're higher, but we are always inline with the pricing. Our labor price per hour is the same as it was before we went union, and that includes ALL associated costs.

You do understand that when wages goes up..the prices of good and services goes up?...you haven't made the gain you think you have.

What part don't you understand????

Our labor rates are NOT higher than the non-union shops we directly compete against. So this makes your whole argument irrelevant.

And strikes??? The cabinet makers union hasn't striked or held anyone hostage for more wages in the last 7 years. I can't speak to anything earlier than that because we weren't union at that time.

 

[The Man]

There are MANY benefits.
1. This field of work is very volatile with many ups and down since project size and location change regularly. When our shop slows down and we send a worker back to the union hall, they are sent out to another shop that needs help. This keeps the union worker continually employed when individual shops can't do that.
2. The union takes care of all the training, this takes the burden off the employer
3. If you have a problem with a worker with either his work attitude or his skill level you can just send him back to the hall
4. Employers can staff individual jobs with the proper sized workforce with the correct level of skill set. This is an enormous savings in labor cost and headache.
5. The union representatives will bring work to us

We compete with non-union shops every single day and our prices are lower sometimes and sometimes they're higher, but we are always inline with the pricing. Our labor price per hour is the same as it was before we went union, and that includes ALL associated costs.



What part don't you understand????

Our labor rates are NOT higher than the non-union shops we directly compete against. So this makes your whole argument irrelevant.

And strikes??? The cabinet makers union hasn't striked or held anyone hostage for more wages in the last 7 years. I can't speak to anything earlier than that because we weren't union at that time.

So you only take union workers?
That confirms number 4 and 5 on my list.

How can you not have more benefits than non union?...why would they want to join a union that pays less as you say,
If your labor costs now as before union.then you must have had a decent work place

May I ask what is the cost per hour for a guy with about 5 years experience.
Costs are to include and all all wages and insurance and all funds associated with union.

I understand how it can make your job easier....as you have peak times..the workload falls off.
So its much easier for you to deal with as you have these Mobil cabinet makers...I expect motels get kinda high lol.

 

[The Man]

And strikes??? The cabinet makers union hasn't striked or held anyone hostage for more wages in the last 7 years. I can't speak to anything earlier than that because we weren't union at that time.

But they have striked?
how did you deal with the strike...cabinets have to be made and you have jerks refusing to work.
There could go that million dollar project.

 

[The Man]

But they have striked?
how did you deal with the strike...cabinets have to be made and you have jerks refusing to work.
There could go that million dollar project.

And what were the demands of that strike.
To get non union wages...lol as you stated they worked for less..
Demand to end the union lol

 

[Tim]

So you only take union workers?
That confirms number 4 and 5 on my list.

How can you not have more benefits than non union?...why would they want to join a union that pays less as you say,
If your labor costs now as before union.then you must have had a decent work place

May I ask what is the cost per hour for a guy with about 5 years experience.
Costs are to include and all all wages and insurance and all funds associated with union.

I understand how it can make your job easier....as you have peak times..the workload falls off.
So its much easier for you to deal with as you have these Mobil cabinet makers...I expect motels get kinda high lol.

So you only take union workers?
That confirms number 4 and 5 on my list.

Not even close to being true. There are union shops and non-union shops in the area. If you don't want to join the union, then you work at one of the non-union shops. The union doesn't have a monopoly in the workforce here.
And as far as less skilled labor, not true at all. If you are a non-union shop you best employees are just as qualified as the union guys, I don't see how there is any correlation here since everyone isn't union.
And in regards to the second number 5 in your list, the union does not restrict job duties. If I need one of the guys to sweep up, he sweeps up. If I need him to hop in the truck and take a load down to the city, he does. There is NOTHING I can't ask these guys to do out in the shop. Hell, if I needed one of them to come in and help answer phones they would.

How can you not have more benefits than non union?...why would they want to join a union that pays less as you say,
If your labor costs now as before union.then you must have had a decent work place

The union doesn't pay less, the rates were very close to what we were already paying, yes, some of them were making more than what the current union rate was but that's because they were with the company many years and have pretty good pay raises. But overall the rates were pretty much the same. During the negotiations, it was decided that those who were making too much would stay at that rate and not be reduced and those who were slightly under would be boosted up.
But overall the costs were the same per hour.

May I ask what is the cost per hour for a guy with about 5 years experience.
Costs are to include and all all wages and insurance and all funds associated with union.

I know our labor cost per hour, but that number includes all overhead. This number changes each month a few cent up or a few cents down depending on what the accountant comes up with.
This is the labor cost I use to estimate my jobs with.

It's currently at $62.50/hr

It includes:
Hourly rate of the shop guys
Benefit package for the shop guys
Union dues
It also includes all overhead
Building lease
taxes
Electric
Payroll for the office (3 project managers, 2 secretaries, shop manager and the owner)
Office benefits
Office workers healthcare
Office workers vacation and sick time
Phone bill
Internet
Maintenance of the building and grounds
Trucking
Fuel
Company cars (each of the project managers and the owner have one, total of 4)
Gas cards
Tolls
Company credit cards
Water/sewage bill
etc.
etc.
etc.
Basically everything needed to keep the doors open and pay everyone.


We average 10 guys on the floor at 40 hours/wk
So about $25,000 a week
Labor accounts for about 25% of our projects, so that works out to about $5 million a year in sales.

These numbers are in line for every shop I have worked for, union and non-union.

Clear enough for you?

 

[The Man]

Not even close to being true. There are union shops and non-union shops in the area. If you don't want to join the union, then you work at one of the non-union shops. The union doesn't have a monopoly in the workforce here.
And as far as less skilled labor, not true at all. If you are a non-union shop you best employees are just as qualified as the union guys, I don't see how there is any correlation here since everyone isn't union.
And in regards to the second number 5 in your list, the union does not restrict job duties. If I need one of the guys to sweep up, he sweeps up. If I need him to hop in the truck and take a load down to the city, he does. There is NOTHING I can't ask these guys to do out in the shop. Hell, if I needed one of them to come in and help answer phones they would.


The union doesn't pay less, the rates were very close to what we were already paying, yes, some of them were making more than what the current union rate was but that's because they were with the company many years and have pretty good pay raises. But overall the rates were pretty much the same. During the negotiations, it was decided that those who were making too much would stay at that rate and not be reduced and those who were slightly under would be boosted up.
But overall the costs were the same per hour.


I know our labor cost per hour, but that number includes all overhead. This number changes each month a few cent up or a few cents down depending on what the accountant comes up with.
This is the labor cost I use to estimate my jobs with.

It's currently at $62.50/hr

It includes:
Hourly rate of the shop guys
Benefit package for the shop guys
Union dues
It also includes all overhead
Building lease
taxes
Electric
Payroll for the office (3 project managers, 2 secretaries, shop manager and the owner)
Office benefits
Office workers healthcare
Office workers vacation and sick time
Phone bill
Internet
Maintenance of the building and grounds
Trucking
Fuel
Company cars (each of the project managers and the owner have one, total of 4)
Gas cards
Tolls
Company credit cards
Water/sewage bill
etc.
etc.
etc.
Basically everything needed to keep the doors open and pay everyone.


We average 10 guys on the floor at 40 hours/wk
So about $25,000 a week
Labor accounts for about 25% of our projects, so that works out to about $5 million a year in sales.

These numbers are in line for every shop I have worked for, union and non-union.

Clear enough for you?

I want the wages associated with the workers...all wages benefits insurance social insurance and all union associated costs.
I dont want them mixed in with your other costs or it tells me nothing.

You may not have a strong union...I can deal with those
They just find the work for the people..I have always supported those unions..but not unions that minupulate...you did mentioned they had striked earlier
Why
What were the demands
How did you deal with it.