Republican Judgement

[Panacea]

That's the most naive comment I think I've read here. Certainly the most naive from you.

Hard work and sacrifice does not always translate to billionaire status. Hard work and sacrifice almost never translates to billionaire status. Lack of hard work and sacrifice NEVER translates to billionaire status. Even heirs benefit from the hard work and sacrifice of others, though you can bet that most are themselves hard working sacrificers, despite the stereotype.

Name one billionaire that has never worked hard nor sacrificed.

Athina Onassis Roussel
Paris Latsis

Unless dating Paris Hilton and jumping horses counts as hard work and sacrifice, it may.

 

[Zorak]

I'm not trying to start something but do you know what your talking about? Socialism as an economic system has just as many "specialists" as capitalism. The relevant question is how much compensation do individuals functioning within the confines of civilization require?

I never claimed otherwise. The point I was expounding upon had little to do with the availability of specialists in either economic model, but rather that the drive, initiative and reward to undertake it was greater in 'capitalism'.

Some might argue otherwise, but I think the proof is in the pudding, here we are using 'capitalism'. Although Capitalism is a term I object to because of it's negative connotations, because it implies that the end goal is capital, when in fact, many times the goals are far more complex and far-reaching than just that. I prefer to think that the free-market merely facilitates progression.

 

[Accountable]

We group together in civilizations for mutual benefit. If you come up with a real good idea that appeals to the masses you become a million/billionaire. Does a moral sense tell you that if someone manages to work the system and makes a fortune then they deserve to keep it all or can they afford to pay much more to support the system that gave them the opportunity to become rich?

So we should applaud innovators up to a point, then punish them if their labor bears excessive fruit?? I accuse you of having a severe lack of empathy. You're unable, or at the very least unwilling, to place yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

[Accountable]

Athina Onassis Roussel
Paris Latsis

Unless dating Paris Hilton and jumping horses counts as hard work and sacrifice, it may.

Very good. Neither are Americans but that was my error in asking. The little I read on Athina indicates she does have a good work ethic and is going through some rather rough times, relatively speaking, with the foundation's board.

Nevertheless, the indication in the conversation you chimed in on was that I could not become a billionaire without hard work & sacrifice. Do you dispute that? To do so, you'd have to find an American billionaire who was born poor and remained relatively so into middle age before entering that head elite.

 

[Minor Axis]

So we should applaud innovators up to a point, then punish them if their labor bears excessive fruit?? I accuse you of having a severe lack of empathy. You're unable, or at the very least unwilling, to place yourself in someone else's shoes.

Severe lack of empathy? So if you make a million and are taxed at 40%, poor baby you only get to keep 600k. Lol.

 

[Accountable]

Severe lack of empathy? So if you make a million and are taxed at 40%, poor baby you only get to keep 600k. Lol.

I rest my case.

 

[Panacea]

Very good. Neither are Americans but that was my error in asking.

Right, I was not aware there were specific conditions.

The little I read on Athina indicates she does have a good work ethic and is going through some rather rough times, relatively speaking, with the foundation's board.

I'm sure they're both fine people.

Nevertheless, the indication in the conversation you chimed in on was that I could not become a billionaire without hard work & sacrifice. Do you dispute that? To do so, you'd have to find an American billionaire who was born poor and remained relatively so into middle age before entering that head elite.

Let me explain specifically what I chimed in on before I address your response:

Am I willing to do the work and make the sacrifices necessary to become a millionaire/billionaire or 1% income earner?

To me, this says you feel becoming a billionaire requires a certain level of maneuvering on a personal level, and your unwillingness to do so is why you're not going to be a billionaire in your life span. You gave no other reason for not being one.

Is this accurate?

If so, and only if so, I would argue that even if you did work hard and make sacrifices, you (and nearly everyone else of course) would lack the connections necessary to pull the feat off. In essence, I believe that outstanding success is as much work as it is luck.

Even if one disagrees, to boil outstanding financial success down to nothing but "hard work and sacrifice" is laughable, and if that is what you have done I object to that alone. Nearly every single human on earth works hard and sacrifices, it's a condition of survival, even the utterly privileged (both those born into money and those on government assistance) do so, as you've pointed out with Athina and her good work ethic.

 

[Kyle B]

I think it's safe to say that some people were able to be financially successful with hard work others with connections, and everyone else somewhere in between.

Also, it really depends on what you consider "connections" to be.

 

[Accountable]

Right, I was not aware there were specific conditions.



I'm sure they're both fine people.



Let me explain specifically what I chimed in on before I address your response:


To me, this says you feel becoming a billionaire requires a certain level of maneuvering on a personal level, and your unwillingness to do so is why you're not going to be a billionaire in your life span. You gave no other reason for not being one.

Is this accurate?

If so, and only if so, I would argue that even if you did work hard and make sacrifices, you (and nearly everyone else of course) would lack the connections necessary to pull the feat off. In essence, I believe that outstanding success is as much work as it is luck.

Even if one disagrees, to boil outstanding financial success down to nothing but "hard work and sacrifice" is laughable, and if that is what you have done I object to that alone. Nearly every single human on earth works hard and sacrifices, it's a condition of survival, even the utterly privileged (both those born into money and those on government assistance) do so, as you've pointed out with Athina and her good work ethic.

Even if I had the connections, I would not be willing to put forth the extremely hard work and unreasonable sacrifices I know that the self-made billionaires I have read of have chosen to put forth.
It is simply not me.

 

[Panacea]

I think it's safe to say that some people were able to be financially successful with hard work others with connections, and everyone else somewhere in between.

Also, it really depends on what you consider "connections" to be.

Access to other successful people. I'd say luck (be it biological or fate, who knows, I have no supernatural inclinations), connections, and hard work are the three interconnected pieces of success, and they probably exist on continuums.

 

[Panacea]

Even if I had the connections, I would not be willing to put forth the extremely hard work and unreasonable sacrifices I know that the self-made billionaires I have read of have chosen to put forth.
It is simply not me.

My point is, I doubt it would matter if you were willing to, probably would still not get you there. I don't feel the inclination towards extremely hard work and unreasonable sacrifices is as rare a quality as outstanding success...that's all I mean.

 

[Minor Axis]

I rest my case.

So do I. You think excess is ok. The bible calls it gluttony and greed. I think there should be limits to wealth.

 

[Tangerine]

I think there should be limits to wealth.

That sentiment goes completely against the most basic fundamentals of what America is about.

 

[Accountable]

So do I. You think excess is ok. The bible calls it gluttony and greed. I think there should be limits to wealth.

I think a person has a right to do with his property as he will. I don't think we should base our laws on the Bible. A society needs government services to function. These services need funds to operate, so citizens should pay taxes. But those services should be the absolute minimum necessary (& should be periodically reviewed for continuation or deletion) and the taxes taken should be the absolute minimum needed to run them. While taxation unavoidably alters behavior, it should not be used solely to manipulate society, such as in wealth redistribution. That goes against liberty and is therefore Unamerican.

 

[Minor Axis]

I think a person has a right to do with his property as he will. I don't think we should base our laws on the Bible. A society needs government services to function. These services need funds to operate, so citizens should pay taxes. But those services should be the absolute minimum necessary (& should be periodically reviewed for continuation or deletion) and the taxes taken should be the absolute minimum needed to run them. While taxation unavoidably alters behavior, it should not be used solely to manipulate society, such as in wealth redistribution. That goes against liberty and is therefore Unamerican.

America is not supposed to stand for greed and excess, at least not to me. It's not every man/woman for themselves. We group together for mutual benefit.

 

[Johnfromokc]

There is no hero worship here, only equal respect for people's property.

You certaily do have quite the propensity to defend the monied classes to the detriment of your own working class - you know, your friends, family and co-workers? I'm fascinated by those who defend the very people and organizations who would cut your pay and access to affordable health care.

It's not relevant whether someone would suffer more or less.

Really now? It makes no difference to you that the top 1% pay less as a percentage of their income in taxes than do the average American wage earner? You go out of your way to defend the well to do, while condoning the suffering of what is left of the American middle class? Yes, indeed, you are an interesting study.

The purpose for taxation is not and never has been "because they have enough already," though you'd never know that from listening to you and others who want to tax the rich because they are rich.

This is where you are getting off track. Statements like this is why I accuse you and other conservo-libertarian types of parroting the right wing entertainment media talking points.

I'll repeat for you again that I find it morally wrong that the top 1% pay a lower percentage of their income in taxes than the average working American. Why is that so hard for you and some others to grasp? You guys go on and on about the poor and middle class "paying their fair share", but give the wealthiest among us a pass for taking salary payments in capital gains so they will pay 15% instead of paying income taxes like the average American worker and paying the progressive rate up to 35%

What about the American wage worker? Those workers that are FLSA Non-Exempt get overtime pay. Overtime pay is the only way for most working Americans to get ahead and put a little money back for personal wealth. While the corporate CEO is taking his multimillion $$$ salary in capital gains at the 15% rate, the line worker is often kicked up to the next higher bracket on her overtime earnings.

Have you ever thought of it from that perspective?

Taxation has become a game of maximizing revenue and then figuring out what we can do with the money, when it should be figuring out what is the absolute minimum we NEED government to do, figuring out the most cost effective way of providing that, then graciously and apologetically requiring the funds from the people that earned them.

I agree to some extent here. I would personally like to see military spending cut to the bone and all corporate wars ended. The military-industrial complex sucks up more tax payer dollars than all our social programs combined, especially when you add in all the corporate welfare that is doled out by the billions to profitable corporations each year. That money would easily fund high quality universal health care for all Americans with billions left over to repair our crumbling infrastructure across the nation - you know - bridges, sewers, potable water systems, hydro-electric dams, etc. Talk about a real economic stimulous!

You either don't understand my thought process or are purposely misrepresenting it. Either way, it's presumptuous & I'd appreciate it if you would stop pretending you know my thoughts.

You made the comparison, and I called you on it, and now you are feeling sensitive? Think about what you just said in the quote above. You post your thoughts on the internet, (you do think before you post, don't you?) and then tell me I don't know what you are thinking??? :dunno You might want to contemplate that a while.

Society has laws to protect the rights of all. It has no business imposing morals, only balance. We do not allow one to steal from or kill another person because it violates the victim's right to property ownership or life. Government-forced redistribution of wealth also violates that responsibility to protect our right of property ownership.

No business imposing morals? Is theft moral? Is sexual harrassment moral? Is rape moral? Is murder moral? Society must absolutely impose morals! The laws of society are nothing more than the imposition of morals.

Paying fair wages to workers, providing affordable universal health care to all Americans, and requiring that the monied classes pay at least the same overall percentage of their incomes as the working classes do is not "goverment-forced redistribution of wealth" (yet ANOTHER constantly repeated right wing talk-radio talking point) It is what a morally responsible society does.

So now you would make hoarding illegal? How many cans of beans can I have in my basement before you send the police to confiscate and redistribute them? To hoard is to keep and protect for future use. Power of the type I assume you mean (rather than electrical power) cannot be hoarded. Like the fictional fiat dollar, it must be kept in circulation or lose its value. Hoarding wealth harms society? How much jail time should we give Mr Buffet?

I like using absurdity to demonstrate the absurd. (Trivia question: Which right wing talker coined that phrase?)

But this quote is so absurd that you should actually be able to see it for yourself. But what the heck...I'll play along.

Who do you think owns and controls the TEA Party? Who do you think owns and controls Democrats, Republicans, Congress, Senate and the Presidency? Too much wealth concentrated in too few hands has brought us to the point we find ourselves today.

And while we are at it, do tell us what currency system you would repalce our fiat system with, and do thouroughly explain the economic mechanics of such a system. I am exceedingly interested in this subject.

Laws are good and necessary when it keeps honest people honest. Safety is easy to neglect and hide from view, as is cutting corners in most manufacturing processes, which necessitates the laws. As companies become larger, and especially when ownership and responsibility is blurred by corporation, it becomes very easy to use anonymity to shirk responsibility and blame others for neglect or abuse, or to claim no one at all is responsible and blame "the system," thus avoiding any negative consequence at all.

Then why is it you cannot apply this logic to taxation and social structure? Don't you see the societal responsibility of the monied classes have been blurred in the same fashion?

 

[Alien Allen]

Hey Johnny you sound a lot like Ed Schultz and the rest of the loons on the far left.

IJS

And I would like you to prove this.....

The military-industrial complex sucks up more tax payer dollars than all our social programs combined, especially when you add in all the corporate welfare that is doled out by the billions to profitable corporations each year.

Don't get me wrong.. I also would like to see military funding cut and specially see us get the hell out of all the other countries militarily along with cutting the give aways to other countries to basically bribe them.

Just that I believe you will find the entitlements are the biggest area money is spent. You seem to have all the answers so perhaps you could prove me wrong on that.

 

[Accountable]

America is not supposed to stand for greed and excess, at least not to me. It's not every man/woman for themselves. We group together for mutual benefit.

In this country, reaching into someone else's pocket to take money you don't need is not honorable, even if the other person has more than you do, even if you were planning to use that money to help someone in need.

The honorable thing would be to help them from your own pocket, talent, or effort.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Hey Johnny you sound a lot like Ed Schultz and the rest of the loons on the far left.

We could possibly have some reasonable conversations sans the childish name-calling you frequently engage in. I would suggest you look in the mirror - you'll find a reflection resembling a right wing moonbat staring back at you.

And I would like you to prove this.....Don't get me wrong.. I also would like to see military funding cut and specially see us get the hell out of all the other countries militarily along with cutting the give aways to other countries to basically bribe them.

If you actually did some research instead of watching and listening to programming that tells you what you want to hear, you would already know the obscene amounts of money spent on defense.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2011/02/22/the-security-budget-vs-the-necessities-o

Social Security and Medicare are a contract with working Americans who pay for them in every paycheck. For this reason they should not even be considered part of the deficit. Payroll taxes fund these two programs that are essential for older Americans in their retirement years. Both face budget challenges but can be fixed, indeed Social Security has more than $2.5 trillion in Treasury Notes in reserve.

Thomas Woods, Jr. recently wrote in the American Conservative that military spending is parasitic as it feeds off the economy rather than grows it. The scale of resources used by the military is exorbitant, Woods writes: “To train a single combat pilot, for instance, costs between $5 million and $7 million. Over a period of two years, the average U.S. motorist uses about as much fuel as does a single F-16 training jet in less than an hour. The Abrams tank uses up 3.8 gallons of fuel in traveling one mile. Between 2 and 11 percent of the world’s use of 14 important minerals, from copper to aluminum to zinc, is consumed by the military, as is about 6 percent of the world’s consumption of petroleum. The Pentagon’s energy use in a single year could power all U.S. mass transit systems for nearly 14 years.”

To get a sense of the competition between the civilian and military economy, the Department of Commerce estimated the value of the nation’s plants, equipment, and infrastructure (capital stock) at just over $7.29 trillion in 1985; and from 1947 to 1987 the military spent the equivalent, $7.62 trillion in capital resources.

With the long record of the ascendency of military spending it is not surprising to see the U.S. economy in collapse, industry disappearing and the infrastructure crumbling. Not only has the U.S. failed to win a major war since World War II, but the cost of the standing army has become a burden on all of us and a drag on the economy.

You see my right-wing-talk-radio-repeating friend, I research many sources, including conservative, libertarian and liberal ones. All contain truth once you sort out the rhetoric.

Just that I believe you will find the entitlements are the biggest area money is spent. You seem to have all the answers so perhaps you could prove me wrong on that.

Why don't you research it for yourself? You'll sound less like a conservo-bot moonbat parrot if you did.

 

[Alien Allen]

I aint going to research because I did not make the assertion Johnny.

And I want govt figures and not something from some other site

Time for you to up or shut Johnny as you have said before of others if I am not mistaken