Obama:

[Minor Axis]

I work with a lady who's a member of Vets for Obama. Here's the conversation:

Me: I didn't know you were in the military
Her: I wasn't, but my husband was
Me: So how the hell are you a Vet for Obama?
Her: What?
Me: You're not a vet, so how can you be a Vet for Obama?
Her: My husband was

DOH!!!

And you were wearing your avatar face when you talked to her... :smiley24: If you don't know, military spouses were in the military too, they suffered and sacrificed their family life for the sake of our country and their husband's career. You're begrudging her membership in that organization?

 

[dt3]

And you were wearing your avatar face when you talked to her... :smiley24: If you don't know, military spouses were in the military too, they suffered and sacrificed their family life for the sake of our country and their husband's career. You're begrudging her membership in that organization?

Then she can join Military Spouses for Obama. I'm sorry, but if you weren't in the military then you are NOT a veteran, plain and simple. Of course I wouldn't put down the spouses for their sacrifice, I know what my wife went through. But she isn't a veteran.

We were married when she graduated from Flagler College, but those bastards still won't let me into the Alumni Association :dunno

And if you're gonna try to call me out, I guess I'll point out the blatant sexism in your post. "Husband's career". I've known several females in the military who were married to civilians.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Now if you want to talk to me about the legitimacy of the estate tax, go for it. But to have terms like "Death tax", "Fairness doctrine", "Ties with terrorists", "Redistribution of wealth", etc are nothing more than talking points. Terms used for "shock" value and to incite an emotional response.

Yeah--the Democrats and the liberal media would never dream of using "shock" value to incite an emotional response!

You really are in LaLa land if you are accusing Republicans of inciting an emotional response--that's right out of the Democrat playbook. The entire reason you (and most people) are supporting Obama is because he's appealed to your emotions--he wants you to believe that the "rich" are getting over and need to be punished and he's going to ride in on his white horse and slay all the rich people, take their money and give it to you. Honestly, it baffles my mind how any intelligent person can believe that taxing businesses more isn't going to result in them having less money in their pockets at the end of the day. Problem is we have too many stupid people voting. If only intelligent people well educated in economics and tax law voted, you'd never see a liberal elected because the fiscal policies are so disastrous--failures after failures are forgotten.

Well the old saying be careful what you wish for is in play here--Obama will win this election likely and will have a Democratic majority in the Congress--the havoc that's going to wreack with the economy is going to be monumental. The sub-prime mortgages are but one example of stupid liberal social engineering that destroys an economy. We'll have four years of it until people are begging to get fiscal conservatives in power (like we had in the 90s).

 

[Fox Mulder]

As far as the taxes being passed onto the consumer...

Yes, I would say that close to if not 100% of the tax increases for manufacturing companies are passed onto the customer.

So how does raising taxes on businesses help the economy? :confused

But that would only account for business taxes. Are you saying that the taxes being collected from the hedge fund manager is being passed onto the customer? What about the employees out there? Who are they passing their taxes onto?
How will actor and actresses pass on their taxes to the consumers?
How will people who won lotteries pass their taxes on?
How about the people making money playing the market?
The list is long when it comes to people who would pay a higher tax rate but have no one to pass it on. It's not the simple 1 in 1 out scenario you paint. Right?

How will they NOT pass it on? That's the great fallacy of this liberal agenda of taxing those that earn more (who already pay the lion's share of the taxes). Forget the person who won the lottery or the hedge manager--you are talking about .00000001 percent of the population--its completely meaningless. This tax is going to hit the vast majority of the employers--these people have some choices:

1) Make less money
2) Pass it on to the consumer
3) Lay off employees
4) Close their businesses.

As a practical matter most businesses will end up with a combination of 1, 2, and 3, but the vast majority of the consequece of a tax increase falls to Category No. 2.

Go check out the CPI (consumer price index) and look what happened to it as a result of the recent increase in minimum wage--there was a direct and very large increase in the CPI compared to past years and that was excluding oil and gas. So how in the fuck did that help the poor? It hurt the poor--always has and always will yet it was paraded by liberals as a means to help the less fortunate--total bullshit.

A person has to be completely ignorant of basic economics not to realize that increases in costs drive up prices--it always has and it always will--Economics 101. Its a concept that so many people have so little understanding and appreciation for (and why Obama can get elected because so many people are ignorant and subject to "rich-envy" arguments made by liberals) and its why these social engineering programs always fail and always will fail.

BTW--I am not oppossed to social engineering--however, the way it should be done is with tax incentives not tax penalties. Tax incentives ALWAYS work much better. The problem is that liberals call these "tax breaks for the rich" -- well of course its a tax break for the rich--becaue they are the only fucking ones that actually have money to do something. Bill Gate's foundation is a perfect example. He's not doing that solely out of the goodness of his heart--there are significant tax incentives for him to create a charitable foundation. He's going to do much more than the government could ever dream of doing had they taken the money he's using for his foundation in taxes.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Then she can join Military Spouses for Obama.

Now there's a fucking Oxymoron if I ever saw one. Sort of like Military Spouses for Osama Bin Laden!!!

 

[Alien Allen]

there was nothing fiscally conservative in the 90's Mulder

The govt still grew leaps and bounds.

we have never had a fiscally conservative govt in the last 60 years

 

[Fox Mulder]

there was nothing fiscally conservative in the 90's Mulder

The govt still grew leaps and bounds.

we have never had a fiscally conservative govt in the last 60 years

But we had some good controls over spending in the 90s when the Republicans took over--we had surpluses. We need people who are going to cut spending, period. In fact, I'd even go for a tax increase dollar for dollar for every dollar cut in spending.

 

[Alien Allen]

But we had some good controls over spending in the 90s when the Republicans took over--we had surpluses. We need people who are going to cut spending, period. In fact, I'd even go for a tax increase dollar for dollar for every dollar cut in spending.

I am gonna bet each year spending went up.

The main reason the 90's were so prosperous was revenue increased due to the dot com boom. at least that is my take on it.

there was nothing conservative going on that i could see.

when somebody actually has the stones to at least put a freeze on spending and prohibit any new programs from being started then we will be seeing change.

sure won't get that from Obama

 

[Fox Mulder]

I am gonna bet each year spending went up.

So what. Each year inflation goes up so you'd have to have additional spending of at least some percentage each year to maintain the same amount.

 

[Alien Allen]

So what. Each year inflation goes up so you'd have to have additional spending of at least some percentage each year to maintain the same amount.

bet it went up beyond inflation

and of course new programs put in place

you sound like a friggin liberal justifying it. :willy_nilly:

 

[Tim]

Yeah--the Democrats and the liberal media would never dream of using "shock" value to incite an emotional response!

And where have you ever seen me defend the liberals when they do the same thing. Would you like an example? The estate tax was spun by the right to be the "death tax" and by the left to be the "Paris Hilton tax" I think both are just as wrong. Talking points suck and it doesn't matter which side they come from. But it's something that will continue, from both sides. The more a point is repeated, the deeper it's ingrained into your brains hard wiring and the better for that emotional response they are looking for. My whole point about the talking points is that they don't work or belong in a political debate here. They are very ineffective and don't bring any substance to the conversation. It's intellectually dishonest to throw terms like the "fairness doctrine" into a conversation about taxes, it doesn't belong.

You really are in LaLa land if you are accusing Republicans of inciting an emotional response--that's right out of the Democrat playbook. The entire reason you (and most people) are supporting Obama is because he's appealed to your emotions--he wants you to believe that the "rich" are getting over and need to be punished and he's going to ride in on his white horse and slay all the rich people, take their money and give it to you. Honestly, it baffles my mind how any intelligent person can believe that taxing businesses more isn't going to result in them having less money in their pockets at the end of the day. Problem is we have too many stupid people voting. If only intelligent people well educated in economics and tax law voted, you'd never see a liberal elected because the fiscal policies are so disastrous--failures after failures are forgotten.

Really? That's a very bold accusation when you don't even know me or my financial situation. I earned EVERYTHING I have. The government is in no way directly responsible for my success and I'm not looking for anything from them. I go to work everyday, I pay my taxes and I don't complain about it. Like it or not, government is needed and it costs money to run.
You keep talking about economics 101 and how businesses will just pass on the higher taxes to the consumer. So what? If I fall into some hard times, I won't be going out and buying furniture, electronics, new cars, etc. I will be concentrating on the essentials and the elevated prices for those items because of the higher taxes will be minimal to my bottom line. But as things get better for me, I will have more money to spend in this economy and that is the backbone of our countries economy. It is the working class that drives our economy not the corporations.
Economics 101: The more people working, paying bills and spending money the better the economy is. It wouldn't matter if the tax rate was 50% on companies that make widgets, as long as there are people who have the need and the money, there will be companies competing to make them.

Well the old saying be careful what you wish for is in play here--Obama will win this election likely and will have a Democratic majority in the Congress--the havoc that's going to wreack with the economy is going to be monumental. The sub-prime mortgages are but one example of stupid liberal social engineering that destroys an economy. We'll have four years of it until people are begging to get fiscal conservatives in power (like we had in the 90s).

Yes, I remember that vividly... People lined up for hours at the polls to get Clinton out of office, Bush won with a 20 point advantage, the country was tired of government surplus...

 

[Fox Mulder]

Really? That's a very bold accusation when you don't even know me or my financial situation. I earned EVERYTHING I have. The government is in no way directly responsible for my success and I'm not looking for anything from them.

I don't doubt you did, which is why I am baffled at you supporting Obama or any Democrat for that matter because they will take more money from you and your family through higher taxes regardless of whether that tax is levied on you directly or levied on your employer and other businesses. If you think that's not true, then you are extremely naive.

I go to work everyday, I pay my taxes and I don't complain about it. Like it or not, government is needed and it costs money to run.

Tim, think about that for a minute. 30 or 40 years ago, what was the sales tax in your state? The property tax? How many taxes that exist now didn't exist then? When you and I can't afford something, we don't buy it. When the government can't afford something, they increase taxes. Its a fucking ridiculous system where people can just give themselves more money when they don't have enough. The federal government is already taking far more money in then they need to to run the programs we really need efficiently.

You keep talking about economics 101 and how businesses will just pass on the higher taxes to the consumer. So what? If I fall into some hard times, I won't be going out and buying furniture, electronics, new cars, etc. I will be concentrating on the essentials and the elevated prices for those items because of the higher taxes will be minimal to my bottom line.

Oh no it won't--that's where you are dead wrong and where Obama has his biggest strength (the ignorance of the average middle class taxpayer). You are probably paying close to 50% (or more than 50%) of your income in taxes and you don't even realize it. Forget all the hidden taxes you pay in for in goods and services, just add up sales tax, property tax, federal income tax, social security tax (and in include your employers share), medicare tax, and state taxes and you are easily at 30 to 40% of your income if you are the average middle class tax payer.

Seriously--how much more can you take on in tax? Why the fuck would you want to or agree to more tax is what I can't fathom????? When is enough taxes enough?????

But as things get better for me, I will have more money to spend in this economy and that is the backbone of our countries economy. It is the working class that drives our economy not the corporations.

How in the world are things going to get better when more of your money is going to taxes??? :confused You admitted that businesses pass the taxes on to the taxpayer so how is taxing corporations and employers more going to make things better for you or anyone?????

Economics 101: The more people working, paying bills and spending money the better the economy is. It wouldn't matter if the tax rate was 50% on companies that make widgets, as long as there are people who have the need and the money, there will be companies competing to make them.

Again--how the fuck is raising the taxes on businesses going to mean that more people will be working??? Remember, one of the choices business have and one of the choices some will use to make up for the additional tax burden is to lay people off. I again cannot fucking fathom how anyone can possibly believe that taxing businesses more is going to put more people to work. Please explain to me the economic principle that holds that the more taxes levied on businesses the more people are employed????

Yes, I remember that vividly... People lined up for hours at the polls to get Clinton out of office, Bush won with a 20 point advantage, the country was tired of government surplus...

Well we had no surplus until after 1992 when Republicans took control of Congress. You like many people (because that's what the media spoon feeds you) believe that Bill Clinton was the reason we had surpluses and a great economy. He had nothng to do with it--and honestly, Republicans in Congress didn't have a lot to do with it. We had an economic boom due to the explosion of the Internet--a dog could have been in the Whitehouse and it wouldn't have mattered. The bottom line is unless and until people realize that raising taxes ALWAYS has an adverse effect on the economy, they will continue to make the mistake of putting people in office who are ready, willing and able to raise taxes by using the age old trick of convincing you that you won't be paying for it, someone else will. Keep believing that Tim--Obama would be proud of you.

 

[Fox Mulder]

BTW--Obama will get elected and he will raise taxes. And then you will see a long recession, which will be blamed on Bush for as long as the media can do it (even though the current financial crisis is a result again of stupid liberal policies of giving people home loans who can't afford it) and peopel will finally say enough is enough. Obama will last one term and people will learn again like they did with Carter and the Democrats that these stupid, idiotic social engineering policies all have the same end result--a disastrous on the economy and end up hurting the people the liberals think they are helping.

 

[IntruderLS1]

He believes that? Really? Then why did he choose to run for president? To push his Marxist agenda on the US?



I think you covered all the talking points... wait! you forgot that he's a terrorist muslim that went to a madrosa... Oh, that's right, you talked about his church affiliation problem. You can't mix the two being a bad Christian and a dirty muslim at the same time doesn't work.



Since when do you listen to what the far left has to say? Since Bush has been a total disaster in the last 8 years, and since he is Republican, if you didn't vote his way, you are left. If you never agreed with his disastorous policies that would make you far left... Hmmmm, that's a pretty big chunk of the American people.



His past has never been off-limits... I know I want to learn everything I can about him...
What about McCains past? When was the last time that you heard the news talk about him dumping his fat crippled wife to marry his rich mistress? When was the last time you heard the news mention that his captors in Vietnam said he wasn't tortured and he made anti-American statements for them in return? When was the last time you heard the Keating 5 brought up? How about his connections to Gordon Liddy? Cindy's drug addiction? His connection to the Contra-funding US Council for World Freedom? Shall I go on? Because even though Obama's camp won't touch this crap it doesn't mean it didn't happen...



He clearly states it's 95% of working families, not 95% of Americans.
So let me ask you something... Bush cuts the tax for the top 3% and our deficiet goes to 11 trillion, more jobs are lost and the economy is in the tank. So what exactly did those tax cuts do? Where is the wealth and prosperity that was promised? Why are we paying China BILLIONS in interest every year? Why is the value of the dollar in the gutter? The government needs revenue to work and that's a fact. The republicans run it into the ground and never worry about paying for anything. Hell, just put it on our credit card the next adminisration will pay for it.... Bush and his cronies have been more fiscally irrisponsible than ANY democratic adminisration. Kettle, meet pot.



I know exactly who pays taxes and how much they pay... So by your logic, the college student working part time to pay for room and board should pay everything he makes in taxes so the bottom 20%'s piece of the tax pie matches the top 2%'s? Let me ask you a question... If every person in the bottom 20% paid 100% in taxes and the top 2% paid 1% in taxes, which group would be paying more in taxes per year? Well let me tell you... it would still be the top 2% paying the bigger lump in taxes... so is that still unfair? Should the top 2% pay 0%? What's fair? Because it's a strawman argument and you know it.



Because he is a fake and the McCain camp knows it, yet they continue to put him out there... That is so funny

"Joe the plumber" is an absolute joke and a fraud. The McCain camp looked into the truth of his story as closely as Palin's before throwing him into the lime light. Hell, Joe even has his own campaign bus to travel around with McCain for this last week. Joe isn't a plumber, he makes $40k a year and is in NO WAY ready to buy a plumbing business, he is as fake as Palin is... and even though he has been shown to be a fake and he would benefit MORE from Obama's tax plan, they drag him around and bring up his name every chance they get. It's actually one of the most commical things I have ever seen a campagin do.



Who's keeping you from looking at his past? His past has been combed over with a fine tooth comb and every detail has been posted all over the net for all to read. Do you honestly think that the republican operatives who want to see him fall flat on his face haven't picked through his garbage, talked to school mates, read every paper he's ever written, got copies of his school transcripts, etc...? If there was a smoking gun out there, it would be all over the news. The reason that these bullshit conspiracy theories aren't in the media, is for the simple fact that they are bullshit stories and they would make the news agency look like idiots for covering it.

And PLEASE stop about the "Fairness Doctrine" OMG you guys are so pathetic when you throw out talking points that aren't even part of the topic at hand... It's like you reach into your bag of talking points and throw out the first thing you get when you don't have anything of substance to add to the conversation. Show me where Obama has talked about the fairness doctrine. Show me where the "fairness doctrine" would affect todays media. Do you even have the facts about it?
I guess it could have been worse... at least you didn't throw out "DEATH TAX" Damn those democrats and axing the dead...........

Why'd you make my post invisible? That's messed up.

I'm dissapointed in your response. I don't feel like spending an hour on OTz tonight, but know that I'm dissapointed.

Name for me one company you can become the CEO of, or one franchise you can become the manager of w/ the amount of experiance Mr. Obama brings to the table?

150 days of work doesnt qualify you to be the manager of a McDonnalds, but here are the keys to the most powerful nation on Earth. :banned5:

 

[Tim]

Why'd you make my post invisible? That's messed up.

I'm dissapointed in your response. I don't feel like spending an hour on OTz tonight, but know that I'm dissapointed.

Name for me one company you can become the CEO of, or one franchise you can become the manager of w/ the amount of experiance Mr. Obama brings to the table?

150 days of work doesnt qualify you to be the manager of a McDonnalds, but here are the keys to the most powerful nation on Earth. :banned5:

I'm not sure what you are talking about with the invisible post thing. I haven't changed anything in this thread.

And are you still hanging onto the experience argument? Please, try to keep up, that was talking point 32, they have moved on to talking point 351 after this one failed as miserably as the rest.

So are you saying that McCain would be able to run a fortune 500 company? Really? Didn't he graduate at the very bottom of his class?
Putting yourself through one of the toughest universities and graduating top of you class, getting a law degree, president of the Harvard law revue and becoming a constitutional professor is exactly what a fortune 500 company would look for in their CEO. Not the bottom of their class politician with no law degree.
I will take higher intelligence over more experience every time.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I'm not sure what you are talking about with the invisible post thing. I haven't changed anything in this thread.

And are you still hanging onto the experience argument? Please, try to keep up, that was talking point 32, they have moved on to talking point 351 after this one failed as miserably as the rest.

So are you saying that McCain would be able to run a fortune 500 company? Really? Didn't he graduate at the very bottom of his class?
Putting yourself through one of the toughest universities and graduating top of you class, getting a law degree, president of the Harvard law revue and becoming a constitutional professor is exactly what a fortune 500 company would look for in their CEO. Not the bottom of their class politician with no law degree.
I will take higher intelligence over more experience every time.

Higher grades in school doesn't equate to competent to do a job and you know it Tim.

You telling me that a guy who read a fw books about cabinet making makes him a cabinet maker?

 

[Tim]

Higher grades in school doesn't equate to competent to do a job and you know it Tim.

You telling me that a guy who read a fw books about cabinet making makes him a cabinet maker?

There is a big difference in physical work and intellectual work...

And yes, I have worked with cabinet makers who have been in the field for 20 years and they are only capable of doing what their told. I would much rather have someone who actually understands why they are doing something the way they are so when a problem comes up they can deal with it instead of stopping work to come to me for solutions. So intelligence over experience any day.

Harvard law school is probably one of the most competitive schools out there. It is one of the toughest schools to get into, and to excel to the top of the class takes much more than reading and understanding a few books. This is why the top law firms in the world compete to get them to work for them. Obama could have worked for any firm he wanted with his credentials.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

There is a big difference in physical work and intellectual work...

And yes, I have worked with cabinet makers who have been in the field for 20 years and they are only capable of doing what their told. I would much rather have someone who actually understands why they are doing something the way they are so when a problem comes up they can deal with it instead of stopping work to come to me for solutions. So intelligence over experience any day.

Harvard law school is probably one of the most competitive schools out there. It is one of the toughest schools to get into, and to excel to the top of the class takes much more than reading and understanding a few books. This is why the top law firms in the world compete to get them to work for them. Obama could have worked for any firm he wanted with his credentials.

I would still rather have someone who has practiced troubleshooting than someone who studied it. It's just a philosophy difference.

I think education is important, but I also know that a rookie is a rookie. There's hardly a way to compensate for good old fashioned experience. That's all I'm saying. I'm not knocking Obama's intellect at all, it's obvious he's intelligent, hell it's obvious he's more intelligent than the vast majority, he's fixing to sell his followers into a socialist economy


Hell, he's obviosly no mathematician.....95% of a population where 40% aren't even a factor



Okay Okay Okay...I digress

 

[siasl]

There is a big difference in physical work and intellectual work...

And yes, I have worked with cabinet makers who have been in the field for 20 years and they are only capable of doing what their told.

interesting observation....there's some truth to it, but i'm not at all sure it works as a generalization....most tradesman i come across, and the group i've settled on as my subs, welcome a challenge.....like most of us, they get bored doing the same thing over and over again....

at one level, one of the reasons they stayed in the trades is because it offers variety...i do residential design and construction (almost exclusvely additions/remodels), so some of that variety is undeniably just locations and people....but the other side of it is that every job presents its own set of problems and details...maybe its just me, but i've stuck with my subs because all i need to do is tell them what we're trying to accomplish re: whatever problem or detail we're talking about...i trust them and their skill set to tell me the solution

and if it doesn't meet the criteria, we go back to it and talk some more.

i had reason to hire a big cabinet outfit not to long ago....their work was on a par with my own cabinet maker, and their price was competitive -those parts of the experience were fine....but their process 'bout drove me nuts....first, an estimator, who listened and measured....then, an email, with a formal proposal for cost and materials and methods, based on

some other guy coming out to take detailed measurements -but he didn't ask any questions...he was literally just there to do what he was told....i found the lack of feedback and dialog very......arid :nod:
my approval of their shop drawings​

it was, to me, the difference between a business and a craft.....two different takes on professionalism and approach.....in a nutshell, the difference boiled down to the level of personal responsbility within each.

i could go on and on about this, eventually getting around to how i believe our educational system trains and impacts our attitudes towards approach....but it ain't the right time or place.

 

[Fox Mulder]

i could go on and on. . .

and on and on and on and on and on and on!!!!