Obama and Communist Platforms are Virtually Identical

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Strickland

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There is no such thing as free.
When you give more control to the government you lose more freedoms. It is as simple as that.
And how do you know they are no less happy? What are the standards to make such a claim?
You should click my highlighted link. Keep in mind that I put my links in bold so as to have them stand out and not just look like a bunch of text.

The Danish people haven't lost any freedom. Their government hasn't made any attempts on their civil liberties, so what are the standards to make such a claim? ;)

You know what I mean by free, it's all paid by taxes.
 
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gLing

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You should click my highlighted link. Keep in mind that I put my links in bold so as to have them stand out and not just look like a bunch of text.

The Danish people haven't lost any freedom. Their government hasn't made any attempts on their civil liberties, so what are the standards to make such a claim? ;)

You know what I mean by free, it's all paid by taxes.
Yes lets look at Denmark

Denmark's economic data for 2001 appear impressive:

  • Slow but balanced growth of 1.1 percent, down from 3.2 percent in 2000. Denmark has had higher growth than many other EU countries since the mid-1990s.
  • An inflation rate of 2.3 percent. The inflation rate has not been above 3 percent since 1994 and not above 4 percent at all in the 1990s.
  • The long-term interest rate (10-year) has shown a steady decline from a level in 1990 of more than 10 per cent to today's of just around 5 percent.
  • The short-term interest rate (3-month) likewise has shown a steady and even bigger decline over the period. From 12 per cent in 1990 to just around 3.5 percent today.
  • An unemployment rate that is relatively low and falling. The rate is now officially 5.2 percent, down from 12.2 percent in 1993.
  • A budget surplus of 1.9 percent of GDP. It is the 5th year in a row that the budget has been in surplus.
  • A fairly large surplus on the current account of 3.4 percent of GDP. Denmark has had a surplus on the current account continuously in the 1990s, except for 1998.
  • The Danish public debt as a percentage of the GDP has fallen for several years and is now approximately 45 percent instead of close to 80 percent in the early 1990s.
  • The Danish foreign public debt as a percentage of the GDP is also falling and is now approximately 15 percent instead of almost 40 percent in the early 1990s.
  • Denmark is the least corrupt country in the world according to surveys that measure such things.
  • Denmark also claims to have a population with a very robust work ethic, which is probably true. All of this looks very good, at least on the surface.
But let us look at some other economic statistics that are not mentioned nearly as often.
Denmark has an entire population of 5,350,000 people. Of them, 1,150,000 are below 18 years old. Of the remaining 4,200,000 people, 2,214,000 people receive government transfer payments (not counting 260,000 students that receive public scholarships of $550 per month).

When you recalculate these 2,214,000 people, of whom some receive only part-time government transfers, into people who live full-time on transfer income, the total becomes 1,590,000 people living off transfer payments.

Out of these 1,590,000 people, 710,000 are pensioners and the remaining approximately 900,000 are working-age people. Most of them cannot be found in the unemployment statistics. They are on other kinds of public transfer programs of which there exist ten different types.
There are approximately 1,900,000 people working in the private sector and 840,000 working in the public sector or publicly owned companies. (The reason the numbers do not add up to 4.2 million is because not all are full time workers.)

We can conclude from this that of the people in the working age of 18 to 66, more than one quarter live passively on government transfers (full time). For every 100 persons employed full time in 1999, there were 33 working-age people receiving support. Adding pensioners, the total number was 61 people on full time transfer income for each 100 full time employed persons. (The pensioners are financed by a pay-as-you-go pension scheme). And out of those who are employed, 31.5 percent work for the government.

All of this, of course, needs to be financed. Denmark has therefore for many years had a very high and continuously increasing tax level.

In 2002, the lowest marginal income tax level is 44.31 percent, then it increases to 49.77 percent and 63.33 percent. Forty percent of the working people pay the top marginal tax rate of 63.33 percent, which applies to all income over $33,000.

There are very few tax deductions available, and the tax value of the tax deductions is continuously being reduced.

A sales tax of 25 percent hits just about everything.
The capital gains tax is 59.7 percent for a private person in the high income tax bracket, unless you hold your investment for more than 3 years. It then falls to 44.8 percent.
There are additional taxes on "sinful" and "luxury" products likes cigarettes, alcohol, candy, soft drinks, electronic goods, and other luxuries.

For cars, there is a 180 percent special tax on top of the sales tax of 25 percent. Then there is a registration fee and a weight fee to be paid twice per year for the privilege of using the roads. The price of gasoline is nearly three times as high as it is in the US.

Denmark imposes many new green taxes. These are the taxes that have increased most substantially during the 1990s. These taxes hit heating, electricity, water, and gasoline.

Real estate, which is already heavily taxed, has been the target of new taxes throughout the 1990s. In addition, the tax value of deductions have been continuously reduced.

With Denmark, as with all of Europe, your perception of its economic status depends on which statistics you are looking at. Also, your judgement of its economic status depends on your preferences (is stability alone to be valued, or is freedom also important?) and your time horizon (does it matter that all these taxes make Denmark far less prosperous than it otherwise would be?).

Danish politicians proudly proclaims that Denmark is the most egalitarian country in the world. They may be right. The obsession with equality delivers a crushing, daily blow to anyone with a new idea or the inkling to cultivate an ability that surpasses the norm. Young people have virtually no chance to improve their lot in life, to take risks, to make it big through innovation and entrepreneurship.

Excellent and hard work are not rewarded by a system that systematically levels the population into a huge homogenous middle class, whose standard of living advances only incrementally and in ways that flout economic priorities. A total tax level that approaches 70 percent is a relentless and debilitating reminder that this country desires no personal economic achievement and no accumulation of wealth.
And yet many people seem to be happy with this system, somewhat like the masses of Huxley's Brave New World. Of course it sets up a dynamic that harms everyone in the long run, but people don't seem to understand or care about this. Equality and stability are regarded as more important than progress and freedom.

A heritage of honesty and hard work are marvelous tools for papering over the failures of welfarism and subtle servitude. With the right attitude, even a prison population can settle into a comfortable and egalitarian existence, one that might even impress Queen Catherine passing by on a boat. But lacking energy, enterprise, entrepreneurship, and freedom, such systems of economic control exact a huge toll with the passage of time.
Denmark: Potemkin Village - Per Henrik Hansen - Mises Institute

The more dependent you are on somebody for the very basics of your life the less you have to say in what they do.
Just ask an angry 18 year old who thinks she is old enough to make decisions for herself but depends on mom and dad to live.

From your BBC link
A recent BBC survey found that 81% of the population think the government should focus on making us happier rather than wealthier.
That could mean a government can keep you living a poor existence but make you happy by feeding you alcohol and crappy health care you may perceive as free.
 

gLing

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And let us look at Sweden another socialist utopia..

the highest standard of living:Sweden's most affront claim, that it has the world's highest standard of living, is often based on the measure of equality in wealth redistribution, and not on the status of the national economy, the buying power of the Swedish crown (Krona), the amount of people working for productive aims or creating innovations, nor it's Gross National Product. Claims based on these other properties of the Swedish economy, in support of their "highest standard of living" claim, are mysteriously non-existent.

blossoming industry:Sweden is a great place to start a new business - if you don't plan on being successful. A more lax economic policy in the '90s has increased new startups by 25%, but the economic attitude towards business hasn't changed much since the '70s, where entrepreneurs were treated like pariahs. Ikea founder Ingvar Kamprad told Forbes magazine that the Swedish tax bureaucrats would frequently accuse him of using people and "only wanting profits".

ranks far higher than the United States in most measurements:The Swedish Institute of Trade reported in 2002 that "the median household income in Sweden at the end of the 1990s was the equivalent of $26,800, compared with a median of $39,400 for U.S. households". If Sweden were introduced to the U.S. as a new state, it would rank as the poorest according to these standards. This is in light of the fact that these numbers are gross values - before taxes - and Sweden has the highest taxes in the world. The same report also shows that Swedes fare lower than the lowest American socio-economic class, working-class black males.

free of homeless, reckless, crazy people:The unfortunate in Sweden often don't roam the streets aimlessly, in fact, few are often found. That's because the state subsidizes them to live in optimal conditions and to provide little work - and if they are put into labor, it's in a public enterprise run by the government, to help reduce the official share of unemployed people. Workers can earn up to 570 paid days off a year (that's no typo - we know there are only 365 days a year - Swedes can earn more paid days off than days they actually work). So where are the poor, crazy, reckless people of Sweden? Living off Swedish tax money and taking up their inequitable residence in Swedish neighborhoods, and growing in numbers since the financial prosperity of the cradle-to-grave system doesn't discourage their lacklazy habits. They are often joined by productive Swedish citizens who simply take time off, after "earning" years of unemployment benefits. These categories, since they are subsidized, are not officially considered "unemployed" in most Swedish statistics, even though both demographics do no actual work. After making the observation that loons don't wander the streets of Sweden, P.J. O'Rourke commented in his book "Eat the Rich" - "The last time I walked through Gamla Stan, I didn't wonder where the crazy people were. In Sweden the craziness is redistributed fairly. They're all a little crazy."

well adjusted churchgoing citizens:Sweden adopts Catholicism as it's official religion, and many of it's subsidized public schools are Catholic schools. This essentially forces most Swedes to take part and finance Catholic religious practices, whether they like it or not.

55% income tax:This income tax, 55% of the Gross National Product, the highest income tax in the world, is also coupled with sales taxes, property taxes, and other excise taxes and tariffs. The Swedish sales tax, a "value added tax", ranges to 22.5% of items sold, on various goods including most foods. The total ownership of public goods by the Swedish government is roughly 64%, closing in on 70%, once you include all these other forms of taxation. That is not including government-owned means of production, which control about a full quarter of Swedish productivity.

history of strong family values:The history of Swedish domestic relations is chock full of civil rights abuses. 62,000 Swedes were forcibly sterilized by the Swedish government over a 40 year period, until 1974, by government researchers who judged families as being "racially inferior". These sterilizations included both the parents and their children. During this time period, a Swedish Television documentary revealed that Sweden lobotomized at least 500 "undesirables", in some cases without the consent of their families, and that lobotomizations may have numbered up to 4,500 people. These practices predated and surpassed the era of Nazi Germany.

the most progressive education system in the world:Education is universally free in Sweden, and like other free government-sponsored systems, it's on the verge of financial collapse and decay. Per student Sweden pays an average of $7,000 a year, while the 9 years of elementary schooling is required, high school and further education is not. Students receive financial benefits for continuing to high school, in the form of about $100 a month, although by college most people have got weaned on the Swedish unemployment system. Some High School students teach Elementary school, while Colleges teach what Swedish High Schools did 15 years ago, showing the recent decline in the quality of Swedish education. To solve unemployment figures, many unemployed people are forced into menial courses to change their status from "unemployed" to "student", illustrating the general sense of misuse of the Swedish education system.

extremely low unemployment:Sweden, like other Socialist nations, use methods to "hide" unemployment figures from staticians, reflecting a "strong economy". Most people on the government dole are changed in status to not be considered "unemployed", for instance, out of work citizens are often considered "on paid leave", or given a menial class and considered "students", or simply conscripted into public works programs funded by the government and given menial labor there. The government's ability to fund the unemployed hides unemployment numbers, giving Sweden years of having unemployment numbers like 2%. This, like other Socialist nations of it's ilk, does not reflect the real life numbers of regularly working people.

Third Way:Swedes often argue that their system is not Socialism, since only a fourth of the Swedish main lines of production are owned by the government. However, this is in light of the government owning 70% of the Swedish Gross National Product, and controlling the direction of industry through heavy regulation. By mandating who can provide what products and services, and controlling media, education and public utilities, Sweden definitely has found a "Third Way" between Capitalism and Socialism - that way, of course, being to fake Capitalism, where the Socialist goals of redistribution of wealth and products are realized without calling most industry "publicly owned". This same trick of a "Mixed Economy" is used by Socialist economists all around the world to help give government progressive control over trade.

The lesson of the Third Way? Free trade is not free just because someone calls it "free".

superior unionization:Unions in Sweden have become hyper organized, and government involvement is obscure and questionable. Super-union organizations like the LO have official affiliations with the Social Democratic Party, and work closely with the authorities to push domestic reform provisions they feel are "in the interest of the workers".

strong economy:While the government spent 70% of the Swedish Gross National Product in the '90s, for 4 years the national debt doubled and for 3 years the nation experienced negative financial growth.

Socialistic success story:Whether the massive welfare state of Sweden with it's cradle-to-grave public aid, ultra-high taxation, and dishonest economic policies is considered a success is something we'll leave entirely up to the reader.
Socialism WORKS! for Sweden... or does it?
 

Strickland

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The Von Mises Institute? rotflmao.gif

The more dependent you are on somebody for the very basics of your life the less you have to say in what they do.
Just ask an angry 18 year old who thinks she is old enough to make decisions for herself but depends on mom and dad to live.
And yet you've provided no proof that Denmark is any less democratic due to their excellent welfare system.

From your BBC link
That could mean a government can keep you living a poor existence but make you happy by feeding you alcohol and crappy health care you may perceive as free.
So where is your proof that health care in Denmark is shitty? Moreover, have you ever considered that it is very possible that the Danish people, with their different culture, could value things differently than yourself?

gLing said:
So when have I ever espoused the virtues of the Swedish economic system? I haven't. I clearly have stated my ardent support for the Danish system which is very different from Sweden's.
 

gLing

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The Von Mises Institute? rotflmao.gif
BBC?? :24:
And yet you've provided no proof that Denmark is any less democratic due to their excellent welfare system.
Who said anything about democracy? Even China has claims to democracy. :24:
So where is your proof that health care in Denmark is shitty? Moreover, have you ever considered that it is very possible that the Danish people, with their different culture, could value things differently than yourself?
My proof is economics. Should read what I posted.

So when have I ever espoused the virtues of the Swedish economic system? I haven't. I clearly have stated my ardent support for the Danish system which is very different from Sweden's.
Same BS philosophy but different name.
 

Fox Mulder

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The Von Mises Institute? rotflmao.gif

That's a very respected economic research institute.

And yet you've provided no proof that Denmark is any less democratic due to their excellent welfare system.

LOL! :D Excellent welfare system. Now THERE is an oxymoron.

So where is your proof that health care in Denmark is shitty? Moreover, have you ever considered that it is very possible that the Danish people, with their different culture, could value things differently than yourself?

When's the last time Denmark came up with an innovative drug or medical procedure? All of the major innovations in the past 20 years have come primarily from the United States. People from all over the world come here to have procedures done they can't get anywhere else--certainly not in Denmark.

[quoteSo when have I ever espoused the virtues of the Swedish economic system? I haven't. I clearly have stated my ardent support for the Danish system which is very different from Sweden's.[/quote]

Have you considered socio-economic issues? Denmark, like Sweden and Norway have been closed countries for decades--they had a very affluent population (that had been growing untile recently) and natural resources (like oil) to support their economies (no problems with slavery or innudation with lower socio-economic scale immigrants like the US has). In 20 or 30 years, as the baby boomers become elderly, these countries economies will EITHER eliminate much of their social welfare or their economies will collapse--its that simple. Even the US is faced with this same problem, although better equipped to handle the looming crisis as compared to the welfare states.
 

Strickland

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BBC?? :24:
Are you serious? You must be more delusional than I thought.

Who said anything about democracy? Even China has claims to democracy. :24:
So you're comparing Denmark to China? Now there's no doubt to me that you libertarians are truly insane.


My proof is economics. Should read what I posted.
I did read what you posted and it made no mention of the Danish health care system. Just because the government pays for it with taxes doesn't mean it's immediately horrible. You libertarians really need a dose of reality and drop your prejudices.


Same BS philosophy but different name.
And different results and praxis?
 

Strickland

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That's a very respected economic research institute.
Just as much as Stormfront is respected for its insights into racial issues. rolleyes.gif



LOL! :D Excellent welfare system. Now THERE is an oxymoron.
And where is the proof that Denmark's welfare system doesn't work? It's worked very well for quite some time.



When's the last time Denmark came up with an innovative drug or medical procedure? All of the major innovations in the past 20 years have come primarily from the United States. People from all over the world come here to have procedures done they can't get anywhere else--certainly not in Denmark.
That's due to the fact that drug companies have invested in the U.S. and not Denmark because the U.S. is much bigger and there's more profit to be made. Not to mention that the U.S. is the foremost powerful superpower in the world.


Have you considered socio-economic issues? Denmark, like Sweden and Norway have been closed countries for decades--they had a very affluent population (that had been growing untile recently) and natural resources (like oil) to support their economies (no problems with slavery or innudation with lower socio-economic scale immigrants like the US has). In 20 or 30 years, as the baby boomers become elderly, these countries economies will EITHER eliminate much of their social welfare or their economies will collapse--its that simple. Even the US is faced with this same problem, although better equipped to handle the looming crisis as compared to the welfare states.
If these countries are so dependent on their oil deposits then why aren't they part of OPEC?

The Danish have a much less severe baby boom on their hands and the aftermath of the retirement of their baby boomers won't collapse their economic system.
 

gLing

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Are you serious? You must be more delusional than I thought.
Well you are the one who laughs at any source you don't agree with so yes. lol

So you're comparing Denmark to China? Now there's no doubt to me that you libertarians are truly insane.
Try reading what I said. lol


I did read what you posted and it made no mention of the Danish health care system. Just because the government pays for it with taxes doesn't mean it's immediately horrible. You libertarians really need a dose of reality and drop your prejudices.
You didn't read much. Any healthcare system ran by a government is low quality. You should know this.


And different results and praxis?
The only difference is the degree of oppression. Why would you want a government to have that much control and why would you believe giving them that control leaves you with a democratic option?
 

gLing

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Have you considered socio-economic issues? Denmark, like Sweden and Norway have been closed countries for decades--they had a very affluent population (that had been growing untile recently) and natural resources (like oil) to support their economies (no problems with slavery or innudation with lower socio-economic scale immigrants like the US has). In 20 or 30 years, as the baby boomers become elderly, these countries economies will EITHER eliminate much of their social welfare or their economies will collapse--its that simple. Even the US is faced with this same problem, although better equipped to handle the looming crisis as compared to the welfare states.
This was pointed out in what I posted. A socialist economy cannot be self sustaining. You can hold it off for a while but in the end it collapses.
 

Alien Allen

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Well you are the one who laughs at any source you don't agree with so yes. lol


Try reading what I said. lol



You didn't read much. Any healthcare system ran by a government is low quality. You should know this.



The only difference is the degree of oppression. Why would you want a government to have that much control and why would you believe giving them that control leaves you with a democratic option?

This was pointed out in what I posted. A socialist economy cannot be self sustaining. You can hold it off for a while but in the end it collapses.

Better get out while you can Strickland.

She has you boxed into a corner.

And you are punching like a girlie boy trying to get out :24:
 

Strickland

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Well you are the one who laughs at any source you don't agree with so yes. lol
The Von Mises Institute is a joke. They're nothing more than a biased think-tank. Certainly no suitable source for news.


Try reading what I said. lol
You made an asinine comment about China claiming to be a democracy too. Nothing more than a straw man which is quite pathetic, actually. It's much akin to the people who compare Hitler to Bush.



You didn't read much. Any healthcare system ran by a government is low quality. You should know this.
No, I read the whole thing and you had no proof that the quality was low.



The only difference is the degree of oppression. Why would you want a government to have that much control and why would you believe giving them that control leaves you with a democratic option?
They don't have that much control. They pay for people's hospital visits and general welfare when it's needed. As such, how can the government then become a totalitarian nightmare? That's just paranoid nonsense.

Alien Allen said:
Better get out while you can Strickland.

She has you boxed into a corner.

And you are punching like a girlie boy trying to get out :24:
If you think she's winning with her straw men arguments you're just as delusional as she.
 

Alien Allen

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If you think she's winning with her straw men arguments you're just as delusional as she.

Those in denial are always the last to figure it out so we will give you some more time. ;)

you did not pass reading comprehension did you? ;)
You made an asinine comment about China claiming to be a democracy too. Nothing more than a straw man which is quite pathetic, actually. It's much akin to the people who compare Hitler to Bush.

Originally Posted by Strickland
And yet you've provided no proof that Denmark is any less democratic due to their excellent welfare system.


Response by Gling Who said anything about democracy? Even China has claims to democracy. :24:
 

gLing

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The Von Mises Institute is a joke. They're nothing more than a biased think-tank. Certainly no suitable source for news.
Because you disagree with them. lol

You made an asinine comment about China claiming to be a democracy too. Nothing more than a straw man which is quite pathetic, actually. It's much akin to the people who compare Hitler to Bush.
You were talking about democracy in a socialist nation. Well guess what, China claims they have democracy too but it isn't true. It does not exist in socialism or communism.


No, I read the whole thing and you had no proof that the quality was low.
You're right. I guss people with money running to the US to get medical treatment isn't proof enough. Not to mention I have yet in my entire life seen proof that socialized medicine has produced anything better ever. lol


They don't have that much control. They pay for people's hospital visits and general welfare when it's needed. As such, how can the government then become a totalitarian nightmare? That's just paranoid nonsense.
Yes they do. Take a look at the UK's pretty healthcare and what they are proposing.
The sad thing is here in the US some health insurances are following their example. Acting like little governments of their own.


If you think she's winning with her straw men arguments you're just as delusional as she.
So far you have nothing. Doesn't mean I win it just means you have well... nothing. :)
 

Fox Mulder

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The Von Mises Institute is a joke. They're nothing more than a biased think-tank. Certainly no suitable source for news.

That'a a major problem you have right there--why in the world would you think a journalist would be competent to discuss complex economic analysis? Would you trust a journalist or Steven Hawkings when discussing String Theory? What about Albert Einstein on the theory of Relativity or Darwin on the Theory of Evolution. The problem with liberals is you listen to much to the liberal bullshit that journalists are turning out. If you don't trust Mises, then go to some other economic institute -- there are plenty of credible ones, but for Godsakes don't rely on journalists.
 

Minor Axis

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As opposed to the conservatives who listen to conservative bullshit because it falls in line with their perception of the perfect world, like your are some clear minded independent thinker.
 

BadBoy@TheWheel

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That'a a major problem you have right there--why in the world would you think a journalist would be competent to discuss complex economic analysis? Would you trust a journalist or Steven Hawkings when discussing String Theory? What about Albert Einstein on the theory of Relativity or Darwin on the Theory of Evolution. The problem with liberals is you listen to much to the liberal bullshit that journalists are turning out. If you don't trust Mises, then go to some other economic institute -- there are plenty of credible ones, but for Godsakes don't rely on journalists.


I would in fact trust Steven Hawkings on Sting Theory

I think you meant trust a journalist OVER Steven:D

Sorry I digress
 

Fox Mulder

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As opposed to the conservatives who listen to conservative bullshit because it falls in line with their perception of the perfect world, like your are some clear minded independent thinker.

I listen to facts--you listen to rhetoric (it takes logical and coherent thought to know the difference). We would have a debate right now about any number of topics and by the end of it, you'd be embarrassed because all you know how to do is spout rhetoric with no facts to back any of it up. When pressed--you can't defend it.
 

Minor Axis

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I listen to facts--you listen to rhetoric (it takes logical and coherent thought to know the difference). We would have a debate right now about any number of topics and by the end of it, you'd be embarrassed because all you know how to do is spout rhetoric with no facts to back any of it up. When pressed--you can't defend it.

I've not been embarrassed yet. Most of your posts consist of conservative pseudo facts with a healthy does of conservative spin, topped with your own conservative opinion, yet these are put forth as the "facts" when they are mostly just pushing your social agenda.
 

Fox Mulder

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I've not been embarrassed yet. Most of your posts consist of conservative pseudo facts with a healthy does of conservative spin, topped with your own conservative opinion, yet these are put forth as the "facts" when they are mostly just pushing your social agenda.

Yes, the effects of unions on a free market system is a "conservative" fact! :rolleyes:

The federal case law relating to FISA and foriegn wire taps is a "conservative" fact! :rolleyes:

The average CEO salary (1 to 3 million) is a "conservative" fact!

The effect unions have had on the Automobile Industry and Detroit is a "conservative" fact!

Seriously--you can't point to one "fact" you've posted here--all you post is AFL-CIO pamphlet rhetoric.

Pick any subject you want to discuss and we'll debate it and we'll see which of us posts more facts.
 
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