Mormonism and Jehovas Witnesses

[Stone]

When you say there is a lot of Christian bashing on the forum, you really need to remove GIA from that equation. He isn't really an active member, we all know him as a troll that goes to many sites to preach his hatred of Christianity.
And any other "bashing" goes directly to the topic at hand. Meaning, the discussion is already about Christianity when it goes bad. I don't know if you remember a member Mazur, but he was Islamic and when he would bring up religious topics or things about his faith, the site would really give it back to him... Not everyone, but you could have just as easily said the site was "bashing" the religion of Islam.



Did he? Do we really know what Jesus was like?
You need to take into account that the stories that were written about Jesus were done so by his followers. Of course they are going to write about him in a very favorable light. Without any other source to validate the stories in the bible about Jesus, we really can't know how he truly lived his life.
The other point to consider is the stories that he told. What does it do to his credibility to know that the story of Jesus and his life were nothing more than a menagerie of stories from other religions and folklore?
You don't need to agree that all of the stories in the bible about Jesus were stolen from other religions, but there is enough proof that many key points were. What does that say about someone who claims them as his own? Or did Jesus never claim that and they were attributed to him long after he was dead?
That's the main problem I have with believing the bible and the stories within it.



You may be correct, but again, we can never know this.

When you say there is a lot of Christian bashing on the forum, you really need to remove GIA from that equation. He isn't really an active member, we all know him as a troll that goes to many sites to preach his hatred of Christianity.

I think it's reasonable to point out he's not a typical member, but he does respond to some challenges.

And any other "bashing" goes directly to the topic at hand. Meaning, the discussion is already about Christianity when it goes bad.

I'm still pretty new here, so I can only comment on what I've been reading.
doombug and his clones are gone and with it the extremes of much fundamentalist rhetoric.
So what I've bee seeing, other than GIA's negative comments, are John's projected as absolutes.....with some general agreement.

I don't know if you remember a member Mazur, but he was Islamic and when he would bring up religious topics or things about his faith, the site would really give it back to him... Not everyone, but you could have just as easily said the site was "bashing" the religion of Islam.

Before my time here, so I have no idea of what the responses might have been.

Do we really know what Jesus was like?
You need to take into account that the stories that were written about Jesus were done so by his followers.

That's a fair comment. History is poorly recorded of those times and that area was in essence a backwater of the then present civilized world.
What we don't have are the negatives that do associate with Smith.

Of course they are going to write about him in a very favorable light. Without any other source to validate the stories in the bible about Jesus, we really can't know how he truly lived his life.

You are looking for specific documented detail that simply hasn't turned up in the historical writings of the time period. That it hasn't been found isn't evidence it didn't exist.
And there lies the question all face.......how far to take scripture as accepted fact?
As the only facts?
About all I'll promote is look at the the lessons Christ presented and use your own logic as to how much of the Bible you choose to believe.
For some, it's none, for others it's absolute.
I do not believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. I think man has had a tremendous influence on it, in the scripture itself to the choosing of scripture to incorporate into it.
I think that and biased interpretations are the main reasons for the discrepancies that are often pointed out.


From my point of view, I didn't need the Bible to come to an understanding a superior being exists. Where science leaves off in explaining reality and the quest for an explanation for reality begins, is the unexplainable element called 'faith' that begs to be investigated/explained........but can't be because it's out of the boundaries of our physical existence. For me, the Bible ( New Testament ) is a bridge to understanding man's relationship with God.

If you don't agree, so what?
If you've noticed, I'm not partial to absolutes and I certainly don't claim what I believe is an absolute. There is much I don't know. There is much I can not know .
I'm pretty sure some asshole is going to come along and tear me a new one about this post.
So what? He/she doesn't 'know' either

You don't need to agree that all of the stories in the bible about Jesus were stolen from other religions, but there is enough proof that many key points were. What does that say about someone who claims them as his own?

You've probably seen me tear both GIA and John new assholes on logic rather than scripture?
Well, take a look at the logic you are projecting.

"What does that say about someone who claims them as his own? "
There are no words in the Holy Bible written/authored by Christ.
You even pointed that out, yourself.
"You need to take into account that the stories that were written about Jesus were done so by his followers. "

This argument becomes a fallacy. There isn't any proof Christ himself stole any elements from other religions. It's all recorded hearsay.
Much of the form and function of Christianity has come from the Churches that promote the teachings of Christ, even right down to the Books to be included in the Bible.
IMO.... the errors/contradictions we read are introduced by man.

That's the main problem I have with believing the bible and the stories within it.

I think you take an honest approach we all have to deal with.

Do we deal in absolutes, all or nothing......or are there elements so noteworthy, that enlightenment lies somewhere inbetween?
I see it as a personal call and I don't like absolutes.

But many threads and posts do seem to only address the absolutes.
Those are the ones I like to debate

You may be correct, but again, we can never know this.

Indeed.....this reality only holds clues and questions.....the answers come in passing on, and that's a one way trip. One absolute ( the rejection of belief/faith) holds no realization of the answer. Anything more presents the possibility. Reality, we don't/can't 'know' till that final step of our journey in life ends our participation of it.
For many, the answer is faith.
I understand the rejection of imposed religion, but why the hate I see in John's posts for embracing faith?
Why the hate in GIA's threads for the faith others embrace because they aren't his own?
Same goes to doombug and his clones......why the hate for those that reject doombug's own version of faith?

A lot of hate in the topic of religion/faith, both pro and con.
As I'm sure it's been pointed out, hate wasn't on Christ's agenda.
That seems forgotten by both pro and con.





Enjoyed the exchange

 

[Panacea]

the answers come in passing on

I always laser in on this assertion, because it seems so obvious and not something to debate, but what if they don't?

 

[Stone]

I always laser in on this assertion, because it seems so obvious and not something to debate, but what if they don't?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.
Don't what?


edit: I was using the term 'passing on' in reference to death, not a passage to a place.

 

[Minor Axis]

First step in your comparison was the editing of my statement to initiate a context that didn't exist.
It's interesting that you picked Christianity as your theological target rather than the concept of 'Faith'. Christian bashing seems a high profile target at this forum.

I pick Christian because that is what I grew up with and am most familiar with including the offical guide. It's easy for you to call any critique "bashing". That is not what I'm doing. Just trying to understand why golden plates in an apple orchard are any more suspect than the unsubstantiated Son of God, 2000 years ago.

This is not a comparison of theologies nor their evolution..........these are the initiators of theologies.
At a minimum, Jesus existed in history as a teacher. He expanded that as rationale for exceptence.
Smith and Moroni existed as an obvious con. He expanded his control for the purpose of personal power.
Jesus did nothing to enrich himself, he put himself in danger to teach us.
Smith enacted violence for personal wealth and power. That is relatively recently recorded history and easily searched out through news paper accounts.

Fortunately the time of Smith was recent enough that histories can be more reliably documented. However the interactions Smith had with Angels is no more verifiable, than Jesus had.

What offends you more, the Old Testament that prophecises the coming of a savior, or the New Testament that chronicles the life of Jesus?
Or is it the claim of the Holy Bible being the inerrant Word of God?
Genesis bother you a lot?

Stop it! I am not offended, just wondering how intelligent people can place their trust in Old Testament prophecies? Come on smile!

Nothing about Christian Theology ( lessons by Christ ) in Genesis that I remember.
Doesn't all Christian Theology begin in the New Testament?
I see the Old Testament as mostly the realization and acceptance of a singular god....God. That's not Christian theology, that comes later as chronicled in the New Testament.....the life and teachings of Christ. But it follows from the logic of a singular God.

Hey, I'm not the one that lumped it all together. Are you saying that one is more believable than the other?

You have a belief in spirituality. I've been wondering what platform exists that supports the basis ( creation ) for/of these 'spirits'. That seems pretty fantastical, too.

If you think about it, the term 'fantastical' applies to any faith we can't explain.
Like your spirituality with out a basis for existence.

I would not categorize my statements regarding spirituality as belief, but as hope. And there could be a God! I might go as far as to call it faith, but I'm still not sure. Faith is for those who have mostly made up their minds. Ancient stories told by ancient superstitious men, just don't hold a lot of weight with me.

But you ask for a relative distinction between Christ and Smith/Moroni.

OK......Christ ( the initiator of the Christian movement )was interested in the welfare of our souls.
Smith ( the initiator of the LDS movement ) was a convicted con man interested in the monetary contents of our pockets.

That looks like a considerable difference to me, how about you?

I'll confess, I don't know much about Smith and his convictions. Was he a con artist or a persecuted person of faith?

That help?

Ehh...

 

[Panacea]

Sorry, I don't understand the question.
Don't what?


edit: I was using the term 'passing on' in reference to death, not a passage to a place.

What if the answers don't come when we die? From there it assumes we would be able to determine one way or another what happens. We may not find clarity in death.

 

[Minor Axis]

What if the answers don't come when we die? From there it assumes we would be able to determine one way or another what happens. We may not find clarity in death.

I'd say that is just as likely as any other explanation.

 

[Panacea]

I'd say that is just as likely as any other explanation.

My frustration with religious discussions is really how limiting they are. Christian way versus no Christian way is basically as far as we get, sometimes we get the other big two in the mix, but it's so black and white. There's either a savior god who created and loves us or there's nothing. Really I think the spectrum of possibilities is potentially mind numbing and sometimes it would be nice to be stop banging our heads on the walls we've built and just stand in awe of that idea.

 

[Mercury]

My frustration with religious discussions is really how limiting they are. Christian way versus no Christian way is basically as far as we get, sometimes we get the other big two in the mix, but it's so black and white. There's either a savior god who created and loves us or there's nothing. Really I think the spectrum of possibilities is potentially mind numbing and sometimes it would be nice to be stop banging our heads on the walls we've built and just stand in awe of that idea.

EXTREMELY well said!!!

Really I think the spectrum of possibilities is potentially mind numbing and sometimes it would be nice to be stop banging our heads on the walls we've built and just stand in awe of that idea.

:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

 

[Joe the meek]

Really I think the spectrum of possibilities is potentially mind numbing and sometimes it would be nice to be stop banging our heads on the walls we've built and just stand in awe of that idea.

Don't bang your head on the walls to hard, it can hurt.

No matter what you believe, no one is promised tomorrow, so live for today, and I PROMISE you, you'll find the answers soon enough

 

[Panacea]

Don't bang your head on the walls to hard, it can hurt.

No matter what you believe, no one is promised tomorrow, so live for today, and I PROMISE you, you'll find the answers soon enough

Lol but that's what I said earlier, I/you cannot promise myself nor anyone else death will bring the answers to anything.

 

[Joe the meek]

Lol but that's what I said earlier, I/you cannot promise myself nor anyone else death will bring the answers to anything.

You can only look at it from your own experiences and understanding of the world, which in the grand scheme of things, may be as much experience a dog has in it's life to understand man made powered flight.

Don't over think it, just enjoy the ride.

Now that said, it never hurts to show random acts of kindness





















































(except on internet forums)

 

[Minor Axis]

My frustration with religious discussions is really how limiting they are. Christian way versus no Christian way is basically as far as we get, sometimes we get the other big two in the mix, but it's so black and white. There's either a savior god who created and loves us or there's nothing. Really I think the spectrum of possibilities is potentially mind numbing and sometimes it would be nice to be stop banging our heads on the walls we've built and just stand in awe of that idea.

These discussions are so limiting because one party thumps their Holy Guide Book as proof or decrees there is no God and another party responds by asking why/why not? There are no good definitive answers. Until God decides to make a personal appearance and set us all straight, we are all just shooting from the hip hoping to hit something. Hard core speculation or hard core indoctrination guides most of us.

HOWEVER, I function along the lines of the hedge-your-bets theists, not that I am hedging my bets, looking for favor, but because if I have to choose a scenario, it is going to be the fun possibility, my spiritual scenario. In contrast, the Atheist scenario is a dead end. The Hellfire and Damnation scenario is no fun because I'm not going to turn myself into a pretzle trying to make an imagined God happy. If it's important, give me some concrete guidance for Christ sake.

There is something going on in my head, and maybe that's all it is, endorphins firing, giving me good vibes when I think about a spiritual existence. Delusional, VERY possible! But I don't care, it makes me happy and gives me hope. My experiences over a lifetime, the wonder I sense when I walk through the woods or look out over the mountains, damn it, I think I've had it too good. I just don't feel I ended up here based on 100% chance, that's just the way the universe developed.

Even so there would still be tons of unanswered questions. Is there divine intelligence or not? Who knows? I do know it's silly to say that because there is no proof of God, there is no God. My answer is that we don't know what there is and there is too much we don't know about our existence. No matter what, I accept the terms and conditions of this life. If it's over when it's over, so be it. It's been a good ride (so far).

 

[Panacea]

Don't over think it, just enjoy the ride.

I disagree with this advice, I think a lot can be said for contemplation.
There's a way to be humble about one's potential limits whilst remaining curious and thoughtful about what's beyond them.

 

[Panacea]

These discussions are so limiting because one party thumps their Holy Guide Book as proof or decrees there is no God and another party responds by asking why/why not? There are no good definitive answers. Until God decides to make a personal appearance and set us all straight, we are all just shooting from the hip hoping to hit something. Hard core speculation or hard core indoctrination guides most of us.

HOWEVER, I function along the lines of the hedge-your-bets theists, not that I am hedging my bets, looking for favor, but because if I have to choose a scenario, it is going to be the fun possibility, my spiritual scenario. In contrast, the Atheist scenario is a dead end. The Hellfire and Damnation scenario is no fun because I'm not going to turn myself into a pretzle trying to make an imagined God happy. If it's important, give me some concrete guidance for Christ sake. There is something going on in my head, and maybe that's all it is, endorphins firing, giving me good vibes when I think about a spiritual existence. Delusional, VERY possible! But I don't care, it makes me happy and gives me hope. My experiences over a lifetime, the wonder I sense when I walk through the woods or look out over the mountains, damn it, I think I've had it too good. But no matter what, I accept the terms and conditions of this life. If it's over when it's over, so be it.

I would agree we believe what is most comfortable, whatever fits our needs and nature. I don't think there's anything wicked about that, despite what it sometimes leads to (war, hatred, etc). For some that is theism, for others that is agnosticism/atheism. Limitless alien possibilities of the meaning/creation of life and the task of deciding the truth is probably not comfortable for most people.

But really, when there aren't many options to discuss, the discussion gets stale. That's where we're at lol.

 

[Joe the meek]

I disagree with this advice, I think a lot can be said for contemplation.
There's a way to be humble about one's potential limits whilst remaining curious and thoughtful about what's beyond them.

I didn't say you shouldn't think.

You could spend all your days in in a room surrounded by books thinking, and never be out in the sunshine LIVING and enjoying what our short lives have to offer.

For myself, there is a good chance heaven may be nothing more than surfing pipeline on the Lochsa running at 20k. IMO You don't know what living is until you caught the perfect wave

That said, no one opinion here is better than another on this subject.

 

[Minor Axis]

I would agree we believe what is most comfortable, whatever fits our needs and nature. I don't think there's anything wicked about that, despite what it sometimes leads to (war, hatred, etc). For some that is theism, for others that is agnosticism/atheism. Limitless alien possibilities of the meaning/creation of life and the task of deciding the truth is probably not comfortable for most people.

But really, when there aren't many options to discuss, the discussion gets stale. That's where we're at lol.

War and hatred would make it wicked, corruption by the brain of man. A pretty long history of that too. My view is live and let, defend myself if necessary. You believe in pink dragons, fine by me. Just don't start passing pink dragon laws, lol. The zealot's view is my way or die. That's going to result in a long post-life debrief...

I didn't say you shouldn't think.

You could spend all your days in in a room surrounded by books thinking, and never be out in the sunshine LIVING and enjoying what our short lives have to offer.

For myself, there is a good chance heaven may be nothing more than surfing pipeline on the Lochsa running at 20k. IMO You don't know what living is until you caught the perfect wave

That said, no one opinion here is better than another on this subject.

Absolutely. Maybe what you imagine is what becomes your afterlife, hehe, so imagine something fun. Oh, and be a good person in the mean time. Care about your fellow human beings. Don't begrudge them a livable wage while you roll in cash, but I'm inadvertently inserting politics into this... I'll stop.

 

[Panacea]

I didn't say you shouldn't think.

You could spend all your days in in a room surrounded by books thinking, and never be out in the sunshine LIVING and enjoying what our short lives have to offer.

For myself, there is a good chance heaven may be nothing more than surfing pipeline on the Lochsa running at 20k. IMO You don't know what living is until you caught the perfect wave

That said, no one opinion here is better than another on this subject.

People have different definitions of over thinking, and your suggestion of "just enjoy the ride" sounds more like the dog's life you mentioned. I haven't said anything at all about choosing contemplation over being outside or living.

I also don't have it in me to weigh opinions with my thumb on the scale. But that's just being honest.

 

[Panacea]

War and hatred would make it wicked, corruption by the brain of man. A pretty long history of that too. My view is live and let, defend myself if necessary. You believe in pink dragons, fine by me. Just don't start passing pink dragon laws, lol. The zealot's view is my way or die. That's going to result in a long post-life debrief...

Right, I imagine the inclination to believe what comforts us in itself isn't wicked, but there are surely wicked comforts :s lol

 

[Joe the meek]

People have different definitions of over thinking, and your suggestion of "just enjoy the ride" sounds more like the dog's life you mentioned. I haven't said anything at all about choosing contemplation over being outside or living.

I also don't have it in me to weigh opinions with my thumb on the scale. But that's just being honest.

I've found from my own personal experience that the answers don't come from thinking, but from living.

That said, it's also nice to have some money in the bank LOL

 

[Johnfromokc]

I've always held to the notion that actions speak louder than words. I only hope that those who use words to bash use actions to try help

Translation: Look at me! Look at me!! I go to church and do all these good things!!! I can't have inner peace and tranquility without telling everyone else!!! Nanny nanny poo poo!!! What have YOU done!? YOU get off YOUR ass!!! I'm holy joe the good-doer!! Who are you???

OK Holy Joe, lets have your saintly itemized list you want all of us to know about since this is about the umpteenth time you have brought it up. We'll give you a cyber standing ovation and thank you for each one.

Did you ever read this verse Saint Joe?

Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ...