Legalized Racial Profiling- do you feel safer?

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Accountable

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Here's the verbiage from HR 2162 which amends the original law:
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2162c.pdf
There were changes that didn't come through on the copy. The words I marked in green were the original words that are now struck out. If you look at the pdf link you'll see what I mean.
B. For any lawful contact STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST made by a law
43 enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law
44 enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or
45 other political subdivision of this state IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF ANY OTHER LAW
H.B. 2162
- 4 -
1 OR ORDINANCE OF A COUNTY, CITY OR TOWN OR THIS STATE where reasonable
2 suspicion exists that the person is an alien who AND is unlawfully present in
3 the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to
4 determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination
5 may hinder or obstruct an investigation. Any person who is arrested shall
6 have the person's immigration status determined before the person is
7 released. The person's immigration status shall be verified with the federal
8 government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c). A law
9 enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other
10 political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or
11 national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to
12 the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. A person
13 is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States
14 if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the
15 following:
16 1. A valid Arizona driver license.
17 2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
18 3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal
19 identification.
20 4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States
21 before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government
22 issued identification.
 
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Minor Axis

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1 OR ORDINANCE OF A COUNTY, CITY OR TOWN OR THIS STATE where reasonable
2 suspicion exists that the person is an alien

The problem I see there is no definition of what reasonable suspicion is. You can't leave this up to individuals. It must be defined.
 

Accountable

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The problem I see there is no definition of what reasonable suspicion is. You can't leave this up to individuals. It must be defined.
I'm certain that's defined elsewhere. It's a phrase in virtually every law. This is way too high profile for anybody to mess with.
 

edgray

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The Guardian are running an interesting article on Arizona today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/18/hispanics-flee-arizona-immigration-law

The Guardian said:
The intersection of 43rd Avenue and Thomas Road on the west side of Phoenix is lined with the same monotonous range of petrol stations, fast-food outlets, pharmacies and clothes stores that you'll find in any modern city in America's heartlands. It is distinguished only by the exceptionally mundane.

Look closer, though, and a disturbing pattern emerges. Here is a real estate office that is shuttered and empty, here a panaderia – a bread shop – that has closed, and next door to that, a children's clothes store also shut. Across the road a cellphone outlet is boarded up and a large grocery store has vanished. A Mexican restaurant still has its sign proudly boasting "Tacos Since 1975", but there are no tacos being made here any more. A rival restaurant nearby, Marly's Mexican Food, has a sign saying "Drive Thru Open", yet the building has been stripped bare. A handwritten note in the front entrance says "Se cierra el negocio porque nos mudamos de estado" – the restaurant is closed because we've moved out of the state.

It's as if the whole area is turning into a tourist ghost town, for which the west is renowned. But this is not supposed to be a ghost town. This is bustling Phoenix, capital of Arizona and one of America's fastest growing and most dynamic metropolises.

Why this is going on is the question put to Sergio Diaz, the owner of an English language school next to Marly's restaurant, where a room full of young students are practising English verbs. "We've been in business since 2000," Diaz says. "At the end of this month we are going to close."

"My students are about 90% undocumented," he says, referring to the largely Mexican illegal immigrants who attend his school. "Three months ago we'd have up to 200 students every day; now there are only 15. They are all leaving, or preparing to leave."

The full article is well worth a read.
 

Accountable

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"My students are about 90% undocumented," .... They are all leaving, or preparing to leave."

So the law's having a positive effect.
 

Tim

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"My students are about 90% undocumented," .... They are all leaving, or preparing to leave."

So the law's having a positive effect.

Would it still be a positive effect if you lose your job because of it? How about the landlords that will lose their properties because they have no one to rent them? And what about the restaurants, stores, and local businesses that will have to close their doors?

I just hope that Arizona doesn't suffer the same fate of Prince William county before they wake up.
 

Alien Allen

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Would it still be a positive effect if you lose your job because of it? How about the landlords that will lose their properties because they have no one to rent them? And what about the restaurants, stores, and local businesses that will have to close their doors?

I just hope that Arizona doesn't suffer the same fate of Prince William county before they wake up.

Spoken like a true liberal

What is it about ILLEGAL that is so hard to understand

Using your liberal logic then half the laws should be thrown out because it might have an impact on somebody else.
 

dt3

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Tim, this is the second time you've mentioned Prince William county. The first time, I looked into it and couldn't find any of the negative things you've mentioned to be true. Where are you getting this from?

I only ask because its just north of me, I've been there dozens of times, and have never seen this supposed economic devastation. In fact, its easily one of the busiest areas around here because it the closest town to DC where a person making average money can live without spending their whole paycheck on rent.

I'm stuck in traffic there every morning from everybody heading to DC. The mall is huge, about one mile of walking each way. You can't eat at a chain restaurant without an hour and a half wait on the weekend. Where are these so-called economic impacts?
 

edgray

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"My students are about 90% undocumented," .... They are all leaving, or preparing to leave."

So the law's having a positive effect.

It doesn't appear to be having a "positive" effect on the local economy. Nor on those who are legal and are getting harassed for their papers.

Spoken like a true liberal

What is it about ILLEGAL that is so hard to understand

Using your liberal logic then half the laws should be thrown out because it might have an impact on somebody else.

I think the problem, as I see it, is that now it's been moved into the criminal, rather than civil, domain. It's breeding an atmosphere of distrust, which will lead to hatred and give people an excuse to act on their bigotry.
 

dt3

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Just do a search on 9500 Liberty
Interesting video, but its high on emotion and low on facts. The law was passed in 2007, right at the start of the economic downturn. So the biggest question is how much of this is due to the law, and how much is due to the economy in general? The video is great for showing there's an issue, but it doesn't show facts, just anecdotal evidence.
 

Tim

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Interesting video, but its high on emotion and low on facts. The law was passed in 2007, right at the start of the economic downturn. So the biggest question is how much of this is due to the law, and how much is due to the economy in general? The video is great for showing there's an issue, but it doesn't show facts, just anecdotal evidence.

The facts are there in Prince William county. We just need someone to collect them and put them on paper.
It's funny that what was documented in Virgina is now being tried in Arizona, yet you never hear about what really happened in PWC. Why haven't we seen this in the news and why hasn't anyone stepped up with the facts?

I'm sure there is more to the story than the documentary covers. But the basic facts can't be disputed. I think it's worth digging into this story to see if we can get a better, more complete story of what really happened.
 

dt3

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Agreed, it would be an excellent case study. But I'm confused as to how you can say there are no facts on the subject, yet you've clearly already made up your mind that cracking down on illegal immigrants will decimate a local economy. You can't be basing your opinion off of a 4 minute video, right?
 

satinbutterfly

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Would it still be a positive effect if you lose your job because of it? How about the landlords that will lose their properties because they have no one to rent them? And what about the restaurants, stores, and local businesses that will have to close their doors?

I just hope that Arizona doesn't suffer the same fate of Prince William county before they wake up.

I find this very amusing. That's like whining about the impacts on the local economy if drug dealers or the mafia were all caught and put in jail. Who would buy up all those businesses and properties that are fronts for their operations? Who would run them? Everything would go to hell!!! So let's continue to allow them to break the law because they do have some positive impact on the local economy.

FAIL!
 

Tim

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Agreed, it would be an excellent case study. But I'm confused as to how you can say there are no facts on the subject, yet you've clearly already made up your mind that cracking down on illegal immigrants will decimate a local economy. You can't be basing your opinion off of a 4 minute video, right?

I don't have the list of facts at my finger tips. But look at it objectively. Forget we are talking about illegals for a minute. If you remove any group of individuals from a given area in a short period of time it will have a negative economic impact on that area. The larger the group, the larger the economic impact. This is a fact that cannot be argued. And given the economic times, every dollar is needed for the mere survival of many small businesses. If you take away 5% or 10% of their business, it could mean the difference between remaining open or going out of business. You are not only impacting those businesses, but their suppliers, their landlords, the local tax base.
Now look at where this group lived. It would probably be correct to say that the vast majority of them were renters. When they leave, who will replace them? What will the owners of the properties do when they aren't able to pay the mortgage? It's pretty much a given that many of these properties will be foreclosed on. That will drive down the property value for everyone in the neighborhood, it will drive up the property tax load on the remaining homes and will financially hurt those who owned the properties.

You know my stance on illegal immigrants from my previous posts. You know that I want to work towards a fix just like you do. But we have to be very careful how we do it and at what speed. If this isn't done right we could take a huge financial hit that could easily drive this country into a depression, especially in today's economy.
I'm patient enough to see it done slowly and correctly to protect my income and property value. Seal the border then deal with those already here.

I find this very amusing. That's like whining about the impacts on the local economy if drug dealers or the mafia were all caught and put in jail. Who would buy up all those businesses and properties that are fronts for their operations? Who would run them? Everything would go to hell!!! So let's continue to allow them to break the law because they do have some positive impact on the local economy.

FAIL!

To compare illegal immigrants to drug dealers or the Mafia is just plain ignorant.
There is a big difference between civil and criminal behavior.
If you have ever gotten a speeding ticket (a civil offense) does that equate you to drug dealers (a criminal offense) Would I be correct to compare you to a drug dealer for getting that speeding ticket or would I be called a fool for trying to correlate the two? After all, you both broke the law.

And you need to go back and educate yourself on my stance on illegal immigration. I want the border sealed. I want the business owners held accountable for hiring illegals. I want the problem dealt with, but I want it dealt with correctly.
You don't stop a speeder by putting a brick wall in front of him.
 

Tim

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No, but you stop a habitual speeder by (eventually) taking their driver's license away from them.

You're right, and you stop illegal immigration by controlling the borders and taking away the incentive for them to come here in the first place. Those two things alone would stop 99% of the illegal immigration.

No shit sherlock :D


:24::24::24:



Yeah why should we stay on topic. Lets not let those sticky facts get in the way :24::24::24:

Do you have anything to add to the conversation besides your bullshit responses?
Please, jump in and explain to me how removing any sizable chunk of the population in a short period of time won't have an economic impact on that area. Tell me how the lost sales taxes and property taxes will be made up or won't be missed.
 

Alien Allen

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You're right, and you stop illegal immigration by controlling the borders and taking away the incentive for them to come here in the first place. Those two things alone would stop 99% of the illegal immigration.



Do you have anything to add to the conversation besides your bullshit responses?
Please, jump in and explain to me how removing any sizable chunk of the population in a short period of time won't have an economic impact on that area. Tell me how the lost sales taxes and property taxes will be made up or won't be missed.

No you tell me how the fuck you can pick and choose which laws to ignore first. ;)

Take some Zanax and calm down and get rid of the emotional bullshit and think for once. :ninja

Liberals :willy_nilly:
 

Tim

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No you tell me how the fuck you can pick and choose which laws to ignore first. ;)

Take some Zanax and calm down and get rid of the emotional bullshit and think for once. :ninja

Liberals :willy_nilly:

First, I don't want to have any laws ignored, never said I did. Second, I am thinking about this, very selfishly in all actuality. Because I know without a doubt that I would be effected economically if every last illegal immigrant were to vanish tomorrow.
I guess it's fun to stand on your soapbox and scream at the illegals like they are criminals and demand their immediate deportation without even understanding how that will directly effect you.

And for your information, I would never use Zanax.... Liberals prefer Mary Jane. :ninja
 
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