Legalized Racial Profiling- do you feel safer?

[Alien Allen]

First, I don't want to have any laws ignored, never said I did. Second, I am thinking about this, very selfishly in all actuality. Because I know without a doubt that I would be effected economically if every last illegal immigrant were to vanish tomorrow.
I guess it's fun to stand on your soapbox and scream at the illegals like they are criminals and demand their immediate deportation without even understanding how that will directly effect you.

And for your information, I would never use Zanax.... Liberals prefer Mary Jane. :ninja

If you don't like the law then get it changed

Until then....

They are here illegally

Last time I looked that does make them a criminal

Damn hippies

 

[Accountable]

Would it still be a positive effect if you lose your job because of it?

Yes.

How about the landlords that will lose their properties because they have no one to rent them? And what about the restaurants, stores, and local businesses that will have to close their doors?

I just hope that Arizona doesn't suffer the same fate of Prince William county before they wake up.

Wake up! Wake up! If we don't support breaking the law we may all die!!

 

[retro]

I guess it's fun to stand on your soapbox and scream at the illegals like they are criminals

They are criminals Tim

 

[Accountable]

It doesn't appear to be having a "positive" effect on the local economy.

We govern on the rule of law, not the rule of economy.

Nor on those who are legal and are getting harassed for their papers.

Who is getting harassed for their papers? Links, please.

I think the problem, as I see it, is that now it's been moved into the criminal, rather than civil, domain. It's breeding an atmosphere of distrust, which will lead to hatred and give people an excuse to act on their bigotry.

Actually the "atmosphere" is from spin, hyperbole, and outright lying for purely political purposes. Nobody here wants to hear about fact. Your minds are made up.

eta:
and people are acting on their bigotry - soft bigotry that says the only way Hispanics can improve their lives is through breaking the law, the bigotry that anyone in the south must be racist by definition. That's why there's so much smoke hiding the real facts lying right there in the text.

 

[Tim]

If you don't like the law then get it changed

Until then....

They are here illegally

Last time I looked that does make them a criminal

Damn hippies

They are criminals Tim

No they are not criminals.

I keep hearing the term criminal being used when talking about illegal aliens, but the term criminal is reserved for people who have broken a criminal law (also known as penal law).

Illegal immigration is a Civil matter, which means it's ruled by Civil Law not Criminal Law. Immigration cases are heard in front of an administrative law judge for the BCIS not a criminal judge.

So, yes, an illegal alien has broken a law, but a civil one, not a criminal law therefore is not a criminal per se.

In general, anyone who enters the United States without a valid document or someone who entered legally but violated their visa by, for example, staying longer than allowed.

Currently, it is a civil violation and the immigrant can be deported.

"Immigration law is civil law; law enforcement never enforces civil law," Salas said.

Local police agencies do not enforce immigration law just as they don’t go after tax evaders because both are civil laws.

Until congress passes a law that makes entering the US a crime, it will always be a civil matter.

​

 

[retro]

No they are not criminals.

I keep hearing the term criminal being used when talking about illegal aliens, but the term criminal is reserved for people who have broken a criminal law (also known as penal law).

Illegal immigration is a Civil matter, which means it's ruled by Civil Law not Criminal Law. Immigration cases are heard in front of an administrative law judge for the BCIS not a criminal judge.

It's actually not that cut and dry though. There are ways of entering the country illegally that would be a criminal matter. But I see your point, though it's a rather gray area as far as I'm concerned. It's still a violation of the soverign rights of this nation.

 

[edgray]

We govern on the rule of law, not the rule of economy.

That's all well and good until it flies in the face of reason. Like this.

Who is getting harassed for their papers? Links, please.

The article link I posted mentions it briefly. Also it stands to reason that it will happen: every hispanic looking person will be asked for their papers. Do you not see that as harassment? I do. If you're living somewhere perfectly legally, which there are many Hispanics that are, do you not think it's a massive imposition on their rights to go asking for them to prove they're legal?

Actually the "atmosphere" is from spin, hyperbole, and outright lying for purely political purposes. Nobody here wants to hear about fact. Your minds are made up.

Yes that's exactly what's made this law come into effect. The spin of all of the supposed crime committed by illegals, that they're taking local jobs away from local people, that kind of thing. Both untrue, of course. And because it's so blatantly untrue, the only reason you can attach to it is that of fear and bigotry.

eta:
and people are acting on their bigotry - soft bigotry that says the only way Hispanics can improve their lives is through breaking the law, the bigotry that anyone in the south must be racist by definition. That's why there's so much smoke hiding the real facts lying right there in the text.

So what are the real facts?

Illegal immigrants contribute to society by doing jobs US Citizens probably wouldn't want to do, and allow owners of certain businesses to employ very cheap labour. They contribute to the tax system by buying goods and services. Passing a law like this one I don't think is the best solution, and neither do you. Why would you possibly support something that is the least best way to tackle a situation like this?

And you cannot argue against the fact that there ARE a lot of racists out there, and this now puts their racism on the side of the law. That can never be a good thing. The legal Hispanics will now be viewed on with suspicion from their fellow citizens and the authorities. That's counter-productive and not to mention highly unfair.

There's no reason this had to become a criminal issue. The immigration issue in the states could be handled far far better than this.

 

[dt3]

For everybody who says there's a better way (Tim and Ed), do you have any suggestions? I see a lot of criticism, but I'm not seeing any solutions. I'm not convinced that there is a way that's better than strictly enforcing the laws already on the books.

And as a side note, is the Justice Department's lawsuit the best way for the federal government to respond? It seems to me that this is being botched by the feds, not the state.

 

[Peter Parka]

:24::surrender

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls

 

[edgray]

For everybody who says there's a better way (Tim and Ed), do you have any suggestions? I see a lot of criticism, but I'm not seeing any solutions. I'm not convinced that there is a way that's better than strictly enforcing the laws already on the books.

And as a side note, is the Justice Department's lawsuit the best way for the federal government to respond? It seems to me that this is being botched by the feds, not the state.

Accountable nailed it: http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1607065&postcount=151

You need to offer a better controlled system of legal immigration, coupled with incentives to increase employment opportunities on the Mexican side of the border. Basically raising the standard of living throughout the Hispanic world would solve the issue. It'll be a long way off, but small steps to start with, opening factories etc in Mexico would be a great start.

 

[Alien Allen]

Looks like it is a crime to me

8 U.S.C. Section 1325:
“Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of such an offense, be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months….

And a misdemeanor is a minor crime

Still is a criminal act though

The distinction is a misdemeanor involves jail for a year or less

 

[Accountable]

No they are not criminals.

I keep hearing the term criminal being used when talking about illegal aliens, but the term criminal is reserved for people who have broken a criminal law (also known as penal law).

Illegal immigration is a Civil matter, which means it's ruled by Civil Law not Criminal Law. Immigration cases are heard in front of an administrative law judge for the BCIS not a criminal judge.

So, yes, an illegal alien has broken a law, but a civil one, not a criminal law therefore is not a criminal per se.

Until congress passes a law that makes entering the US a crime, it will always be a civil matter.

Semantics. Are you running for office, because you've got the chops for it.

 

[Accountable]

That's all well and good until it flies in the face of reason. Like this.

In what way, Ed. Seems lots of people throw this hyperbole out but nobody wants to explain it. How is enforcing existing federal immigration law at the state level anything but reasonable? You can bet that Spain wouldn't sit around with their hands in their pockets if the EU failed to hold up their end of the stick in some way.

The article link I posted mentions it briefly. [that article is propaganda and political spin. It quotes one person who spits out a generalization with not the slightest effort of followup.] Also it stands to reason that it will happen: every hispanic looking person will be asked for their papers. Do you not see that as harassment?

It does not stand to reason. It does not stand to reason. The law specifically prohibits racial profiling. How many times do I have to type it?? It only stands to reason if you prejudicially believe that the typical Arizona State Trooper, the majority of whom are Hispanic, are prejudiced against Hispanics. Are you prepared to state that?

And if you are so certain that this law automatically will result in racial profiling, where's the outcry against the federal law - virtually identical and stated in the AZ law to be superior - which DOES NOT prohibit racial profiling?

Yes that's exactly what's made this law come into effect. The spin of all of the supposed crime committed by illegals, [:willy_nilly:] that they're taking local jobs away from local people, that kind of thing. Both untrue, of course. And because it's so blatantly untrue, the only reason you can attach to it is that of fear and bigotry.

What do you mean "untrue, of course"??

So what are the real facts?

Fuck me, Ed. If all my posts presenting factual information aren't "the real facts" then I guess the neighborhood shaman has them.

Illegal immigrants contribute to society by doing jobs US Citizens probably wouldn't want to do, and allow owners of certain businesses to employ very cheap labour.

I've done lots of jobs I didn't want to do, Ed. Haven't you? And you're advocating that business owners break the law as well. Nice.

They contribute to the tax system by buying goods and services.

How do otherwise sane and sensible people rationalize breaking the law??

Passing a law like this one I don't think is the best solution, and neither do you. Why would you possibly support something that is the least best way to tackle a situation like this?

The State of Arizona's citizens support the law. If they supported something as destructive and against their best interests as full socialism, I'd say God Bless 'em. It's their decision. My frustration comes from you & others continuing to harp endlessly that it's a racist law and/or promotes, even dictates, racial profiling when it clearly prohibits it. And then when I mention the federal law it gets ignored like so much smoke.

And you cannot argue against the fact that there ARE a lot of racists out there, and this now puts their racism on the side of the law.

I would absolutely argue against the second part.

The legal Hispanics will now be viewed on with suspicion from their fellow citizens and the authorities.

Have you ever been to Arizona? Have you ever visited anyplace near the US/Mexico border? If you had you would immediately see how far off-base you are.

There's no reason this had to become a criminal issue. The immigration issue in the states could be handled far far better than this.

Maybe, but it is not a racist law. It doesn't promote racism. It does not permit racial profiling. It is supported by the majority of the state. It supports federal law.

Argue that it's not as good as other options, but stick to the facts.

 

[Accountable]

Here is the law as amended, with guidance from the governor.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2162c.pdf
http://www.azgovernor.gov/dms/upload/EO_201009.pdf

So today, as we often do here, The Ticket is publishing for the first time the entire Arizona illegal immigrant law. Why take someone else's version? Read the full text for yourself.

Yes, yes, this may expunge some of the fun of likening Arizona to Germany, the racial....
...profiling allegations and organizing boycotts of boycotters. We also have below the governor's ensuing executive order detailing how to implement the law and the follow-up House bill to adjust some provisions of the original Senate measure.

Her order strictly prohibits state and local officials from "solely considering race, color or national origin" while enforcing the law, which takes effect this summer,and detailing the law be "implemented in a manner consistent with federal laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons and respecting the privileges and immunities of United States citizens."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/was...izona-illegal-immigration-law-jan-brewer.html

 

[edgray]

In what way, Ed. Seems lots of people throw this hyperbole out but nobody wants to explain it. How is enforcing existing federal immigration law at the state level anything but reasonable? You can bet that Spain wouldn't sit around with their hands in their pockets if the EU failed to hold up their end of the stick in some way.

that just reminded me of Sarah Palin's "In what way, Charlie?"... :24:

But seriously, Spain has an immigration issue from Africa that is huge. Many illegals here in southern Spain, they literally just have to swim the 12km from Morocco after journeying 1,000s of miles across Africa. Generally they are tolerated, illegal immigration here is not a criminal offense, as it shouldn't be. There are immigration centres where illegals can go to for accommodation whilst the legal process is started if they so wish, or they can live on the black market, which many do.

It does not stand to reason. It does not stand to reason. The law specifically prohibits racial profiling. How many times do I have to type it?? It only stands to reason if you prejudicially believe that the typical Arizona State Trooper, the majority of whom are Hispanic, are prejudiced against Hispanics. Are you prepared to state that?

The law does not permit racial profiling yet that's EXACTLY what this change in law will bring about. No matter how many times you type it. Though aim for 100, that might make it so.

I believe the Arizona State Troopers will do their job. Their job is now to find illegal immigrants. How do you think they'll do this? Um, racial profiling maybe? It's an easy cop, and the authorities LOVE and easy cop.

And if you are so certain that this law automatically will result in racial profiling, where's the outcry against the federal law - virtually identical and stated in the AZ law to be superior - which DOES NOT prohibit racial profiling?

"The federal law sucks too!"

There's your outcry.

What do you mean "untrue, of course"??

I mean untrue, of course, because the right-wing media that fuels this kind of crap is known to lie more often than the left-wing media that generally sticks to the statistics. The truth is they're not committing a crime wave upon society, they commit crimes well below the average. This is from my knowledge of UK immigration and how it's reported over there, and I doubt it's much different on the other side of the pond. The whole issue is a vote-winning scare monger tactic used to gain loyalty and votes for those "tough on immigration" by creating a new and mostly fictitious enemy. Come on, I'm very surprised you've fallen for this twaddle

Fuck me, Ed. If all my posts presenting factual information aren't "the real facts" then I guess the neighborhood shaman has them.

I've done lots of jobs I didn't want to do, Ed. Haven't you? And you're advocating that business owners break the law as well. Nice. How do otherwise sane and sensible people rationalize breaking the law??The State of Arizona's citizens support the law. If they supported something as destructive and against their best interests as full socialism, I'd say God Bless 'em. It's their decision. My frustration comes from you & others continuing to harp endlessly that it's a racist law and/or promotes, even dictates, racial profiling when it clearly prohibits it. And then when I mention the federal law it gets ignored like so much smoke.

The last job I did I didn't want to was when I was 16 and working in a Supermarket. As a middle class Englishmen I don't have to do jobs I don't want to. I haven't spent 15 years building my skill set to stack shelves in a supermarket again.

I can see you're typing it out again, but no matter how many times you type it, it won't make it so. Here's a good example of what will happen. In the UK, when the police got hold of portable speed cameras, they suddenly realised they could look like they were doing their job by putting masses of resources into busting speeding drivers, which are an easy target on British roads as the limits are so low. So, they catch X amount of speeders and put fewer resources into other areas. This generally means that drivers are discriminated against. So by making illegal immigration a criminal issue, and they're easy targets because of a difference in physical appearance, do you not see how this will lead to profiling? As I said, it's an easy cop.

Furthermore, the speeding driver issue was used a vote winner, being tough on crime, yet the increased policing hasn't altered the death rate from speeding at all... total waste of time other than the revenue it brings into the police through fining.

I would absolutely argue against the second part. Have you ever been to Arizona? Have you ever visited anyplace near the US/Mexico border? If you had you would immediately see how far off-base you are.

You can argue against it until you're blue in the face but that's how it is. Any criminal law that's brought in will have the fact of allowing bigots to air their bigotry as often as possible. Imagine suddenly 2 men holding hands in public was made illegal. What kind of message is that sending out to the homophobes out there? Maybe that their twisted views are correct?

Maybe, but it is not a racist law. It doesn't promote racism. It does not permit racial profiling. It is supported by the majority of the state. It supports federal law.

Argue that it's not as good as other options, but stick to the facts.

the law in itself isn't racist, you are totally correct there. But that's not what I said. Whether it permits racial profiling or not, it doesn't matter. that is what it will lead to.

 

[edgray]

Here's a good starting point against the vitriol of immigration scaremongering:

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/

 

[satinbutterfly]

To compare illegal immigrants to drug dealers or the Mafia is just plain ignorant.
There is a big difference between civil and criminal behavior.
If you have ever gotten a speeding ticket (a civil offense) does that equate you to drug dealers (a criminal offense) Would I be correct to compare you to a drug dealer for getting that speeding ticket or would I be called a fool for trying to correlate the two? After all, you both broke the law.

And you need to go back and educate yourself on my stance on illegal immigration. I want the border sealed. I want the business owners held accountable for hiring illegals. I want the problem dealt with, but I want it dealt with correctly.
You don't stop a speeder by putting a brick wall in front of him.

1. Illegally entering this country is a criminal offense.
2. I wasn't necessarily trying compare apples to apples. I was simply illustrating that just because something might benefit the local economy does not make it right if it's illegal nor should it be tolerated.
3. I could care less about your stance on illegal immigration. I was simply responding to your whining about how it could affect the area negatively economically if all the illegals would be deported.

 

[Minor Axis]

For everybody who says there's a better way (Tim and Ed), do you have any suggestions? I see a lot of criticism, but I'm not seeing any solutions. I'm not convinced that there is a way that's better than strictly enforcing the laws already on the books.

People must prove their identity when they apply for a job. Part of your identity establishes you are a U.S citizen. A national ID card would be required, something like SS or Passport. Harsh onerous fines for employers that hire illegals. A bureaucracy with agents would be required to manage. Maybe a tip line.

 

[retro]

People must prove their identity when they apply for a job. Part of your identity establishes you are a U.S citizen. A national ID card would be required, something like SS or Passport. Harsh onerous fines for employers that hire illegals. A bureaucracy with agents would be required to manage. Maybe a tip line.

Why would we need another bureaucracy? Don't we already have ICE for stuff like that? I vehemently disagree with a national ID card though. On another note though, you're already required to show proof of identity or the right to work here when you're hired. But that doesn't stop some employers, which is where the problem lies.

 

[Peter Parka]

Cant believe people are trying to use the "it's illegal" excuse. By that reasoning then, the whole USA government and country is wring because it was breaking the law (illegal) by rebelling against Great Britain that caused it to exist in the first place.