JESUS in Christianity, JESUS in Islam: Which account is historically correct?

[StanJon]

I never study the Islam religion or any of that matter. However, i will refute your argument and prove to you that Jesus was not a prophet from what i understand. I will try to explain what i know in short.

First, you have to understand the Trinity (Triunity) of God. Some believe that because the word "trinity" was never mentioned in the Bible, they question whether it is a biblical doctrine or not, but the absence of the term does not mean it is not biblical. God has a tri-personality. He is one God but with three personality. Not three Gods. No one can fully explain the trinity. It is largely incomprehensible of the mind of man. God tells us in Isaiah:
Isaiah 55:8-9


8.For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

But do biblical evidence support the tri-personality or trinity of God? It certainly does.

The tri-personality of God goes like this: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit. They are not three God. According to the teaching of the scripture, the three persons are inseparable, interdependent, and eternally nited in one Divine Being.

The doctrine of the trinity states that there is one God who is one in essence or substance, but three in personality. This does not mean three independent Gods existing as one, but three Persons who are co-equal, co-eternal, inseparable, interdependent, and eternally united in one absolute Divine Essence and Being.


In most formualries the doctrine is sated by saying that God is One in his essencial being, but that in his being there are three Persons, yet so as not to form separate and distinct individuals. They are three modes or forms in which the divine essence exists. 'Person' is however, an imperfect expression of the truth inasmuch as the term denotes to us a separate rational and moral individdual. But in the being of God there are not three individuals, but three personal self-distinctions within the one divine essence. Each person is self-conscious and self-directing, yet never acting independently or in opposition. When we say that God is a Unity we mean that, though God is in himself a threefold centre of life, his life is not split into three. He is one in essence, in personality and in will When we say that God is a Trinity in Unity, we mean that there is a unity in diversity, and that diversity manifests itself in Persons, in characteristic and in operation. So that may expalin why Jesus did not act independently when he was performing miracles.

To be continued....

 

[StanJon]

Equality in dignity

There is perfect equality in nature, honor and dignity between the Persons. Fahterhood belongs to the very essence of the first Person and it was so from eternity. It is a personal property of God 'from whom every family in heaven and earth is named' ... "Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named..." (Eph. 3:15).

The Son is called the 'only begotten' perhaps to suggest uniqueness rather than derivation. Christ always claimed for himself a unique relationship to God as Father, and the Jews who listened to him apparently had no illusions about his claims. Indeed they sought to kill him because he 'called God his own Father, making himself equal with God... "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (Jn. 5:18)


The Spirit is revealed as the One who knows the depths of God's nature: "For the spirit searches everything, even the depths of God... No one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God" (1Cor. 2:10). This is saying that the Spirit is 'just God himself in the innermost essence of his being.'

Diversity in operation

In the functions ascribed to each of the Persons in the Godhead, especially in man's redemption, it is clear that a certain degree of subordination is involved (in relation, though not in nature); the Father first, the Son second, the Spirit third. The Father works through the Son by the Spirit. Thus Christ can say: "My Father is greater than I." As the Son is sent by the Father, so the Spirit is sent by the Son. As it was the Son's office to reveal the Father, so it is the Spirit's office to reveal the Son, as Christ testified: " He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you" (Jn. 16:14)

Bible Support for the Trinity

Deu. 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD!"

Verse 4 is subject to various translations, though the statement is likely stressing the uniqueness of Yaweh and should be translated, "The LORD is our God, the LORD alone."

However, there is also a secondary emphasis... The Lord's indivisibility. This is apparent in most English translations. This confession clearly prepares the way for the later revelation of the Trinity, but how? "God" is a plural word, and the word one refers to one in a collective sense. As such, it is used of the union of Adam and Eve... "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Gen. 2:24) to describe the two persons in one flesh. Futher is is ued in a collective sense, like one cluster of grapes rather than in an absolute sense as in Numbers 13:23, "And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff; and they brought of the pomegranates, and of the figs." when the spies brought back a single cluster of grapes. Furthermore, the oneness of God is implied in those OT passages that declares that there is no other GOd besides Yawheh, the God of Isareal.


Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Deu. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him

And in the NT

1 Cor. 8: 4-6
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph. 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


More to come...

 

[Minor Axis]

But do biblical evidence support the tri-personality or trinity of God? It certainly does...

Ok, Sylviane, you're turn to shoot back something from the Qur'an, that should settle it... Please guys, you need to post more scripture to convince the undecided. :smiley24:

 

[StanJon]

Scripture Demonstrating God, Who is One, is Also Three.

OT scripture

While there is no explicit statement in the OT affirming the Triunity, we can confidently say the OT not only allows for the Triunity, but also implies that God is a Triune Being in a number of ways.

The name Elohim, translated God, is the plural of El. While this is what is called a plural of plentitude pointing to the power and majesty of God, it certainly allows for the NT revelation of the Triunity of God.

There are many instances where God uses the plural pronoun to describe Himself.
Gen. 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." , 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever", Isa. 6:8 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me."

In the creation account, both God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are seen in the work of creation. It is stated that God created heaven and earth.. Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."... but that it was the Holy Spirit who moved over the earth to infuse it with life in the sense of protecting and participating in the work of creation Gen. 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Writing about the messiah, Isaiah reveal Him to be equal with God, calling Him the "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" Isa.9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Several passages reveal a distinction of the persons within the Godhead.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. This is precisely Peter's point when He quotes this Psalm to show the resurrection of of the Messiah was anticipated in the OT.

The Redeemer (who must be divine Isa. 7:14"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."; 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. ) is distinguished from the Lord Isa 59:20 "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."

The spirit is distinguished from the Lord in a number of passages Isa. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me... Isa. 59:21
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

In the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah Isaiah 7:14, God made it clear that the One who would be born of the virgin would also be Immanuel, God with us.


More to come...

 

[All Else Failed]

This is amazing. two fundies going at it with an incredibly twisted and perverted definition of "proof". Its like the movies.

 

[StanJon]

NT Scriptures

The case for the Triunity of God is even stronger in the NT. Here is can be unequivocally demonstrated the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Furthermore, the NT teaches us that these three names are not synonymous, but speak of three distinct and equal Persons.

The Father is called God John 6:27;20:17; 27"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." 20:17 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1Cor.8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jesus Christ the Son is declared to be God. His deity is proven by the divine names given to Him, by His works that only God could do (upholding all things, Col.1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "; creation, Col. 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him", John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."; and future judgment, John 5:27 "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man"), by His divine attributes (eternality, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."; omnipresence, Matt. 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."; Omnipotence, Heb. 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"; omniscience, Matt. 9:4 "And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?), and by explicit statements declaring His Deity (John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."; 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."; Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;": Heb1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.")

I think that about does it for the day... or for this thread rather.

 

[StanJon]

Ok, Sylviane, you're turn to shoot back something from the Qur'an, that should settle it... Please guys, you need to post more scripture to convince the undecided. :smiley24:

Are you reading for readings sake or are you reading with understanding, to learn something my friend? I quoted scriptures to back my argument. Read it again because i can't bother to explain it again. I am studying for my exams.:thumbup

 

[All Else Failed]

NT Scriptures

The case for the Triunity of God is even stronger in the NT. Here is can be unequivocally demonstrated the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Furthermore, the NT teaches us that these three names are not synonymous, but speak of three distinct and equal Persons.

The Father is called God John 6:27;20:17; 27"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." 20:17 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1Cor.8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jesus Christ the Son is declared to be God. His deity is proven by the divine names given to Him, by His works that only God could do (upholding all things, Col.1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "; creation, Col. 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him", John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."; and future judgment, John 5:27 "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man"), by His divine attributes (eternality, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."; omnipresence, Matt. 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."; Omnipotence, Heb. 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"; omniscience, Matt. 9:4 "And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?), and by explicit statements declaring His Deity (John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."; 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."; Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;": Heb1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.")

I think that about does it for the day... or for this thread rather.

Watch this in it's entirety. Just food for thought:


YouTube - The Christian Trinity

 

[Alien Allen]

I think that about does it for the day... or for this thread rather.

Bless you !! :24:

 

[StanJon]

Watch this in it's entirety. Just food for thought:


YouTube - The Christian Trinity

Failed, let me first say this before i comment on the video. We must recognize our need to simply trust in God's special revelation to us, the Bible, and submit our minds to that teaching which is truly expressed in its pages. This does not mean we do not test the scripture to make sure these things are truly taught, but once we are convinced that that is what the Bible says, we must lay hold of it by faith and wait on the eternal future for complete understanding.

It would be the height of egotism for a person to say that because an idea in the Bible does not make sense (does not conform to his or her reasoning), it cannot e true and the Bible must be in error on this point.

The doctrine of the trinity or triunity of God's revelation of One who is infinite to those who are finite. So we must ask, doesn't it seem logical that in our study about God we are going to find things that are incomprehensible, mysterious, and super-rational to finite man's rational thinking capacity? So let's understand from the begining of my post, "God in His existence as the Three-in-One is beyond the limits of human comprehension".

There is another important issue about the nature of this revelation in the scripture. We need to think a moment about the words, explicit and implicit for these two words are important to rightly understanding what the Scriture teaches us about the doctrine. Explicit means "fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied; fully and clearly defined or formulated." Implicit means "implied or uinderstood, though not directly expressed."

Ryrie writes

Trinity is, of course, not a biblical word. Neither are triunity, trine, trinal, subsistence, nor essence. Yet we employ them, and often helpfully, in trying to express this doctrine which is so fraught with difficulties. Furthermore, this is a doctrine which in the NT is not explicit even though it is often said that it is inplicit in the OT and explicit in the NT. But expilcit means "charaterized by full, clear experession," an adjective hard to apply to this doctrine. Nevertheless, the doctrine grows out of the Scritptures, so it is a biblical taching.


More to come...

 

[StanJon]

Historical Background

Though the Bible taught truth of the Triunity of God implicitly in both the OT and the NT, the development and the delineation of this doctrine was brought about by the rise of the heretical groups or teachers who either denied the deity of Christ or that of the Holy Spirit. This caused the early church to formally crystallize the doctrine of the Triunity. Actually, Tertullian in 215 A.D. was the first one to state this doctrine using the term, triunity. Concerning the struggle the early church webt through, Walter Martin writes:

As the NT was completed towards the close of the first century, the infant chuech was struggling for its life against old foes___ persecution and doctrinal error. On the one hand were the Roamn empire, orthodox Judaism, and hostile pagan religions, and on the other hand were hereies and divisive doctrines. Early Christianty was indeed a perilous experiment.

Probably no doctrine was the subject of more controversy in the early church thatn that of the Trinity. Certainly the teachings of "one God in three Person" was accepted in the early church, but only as this teaching was challenged did systematic doctrine of the Trinity emerge.

The Gnostic heresy, for instance, (which permeated Christendom in the lifetime of the apostles) drew strong condemnation in Paul's Epistles to the Colossians and John's First Epistle. Denying the deity of Christ, the Gnostics taught that he was inferior in nature to the Father, a type of super-angle of impersonal emanation fron God.

Following the Gnostics came such specualtive theologians as Origen, Lucian of Antioch, Paul of Samosota, Sabellius, and Arius of Alexandria. All these propagated unbiblical views of the Trinity and the of the divinty of our Lord...

That's about where i will leave it on the background of the Trinity.

The person in that video read the Holy Book but somehow cannot comprehend or understand what the bible teaches us.

 

[StanJon]

Ok, I will start with the divinity of Jesus:

In Mark ( 11 ) we have: """Jesus entered Jerusalem and came into the temple; and after looking around at everything, He left for Bethany with the twelve, since it was already late.12 On the next day, when they had left Bethany, He became hungry. 13 Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs"""

Why didn't Jesus ( who has the divine nature and who is the all-knowing ) know that it was not the season for figs ? and why he didn't know that the tree had no fig ? doesn't that mean that he is not the all knowing ? so he was never GOD or even had never the divine nature ?

He meant that clearly when he said : “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18).

Waiting for an answer.

According to my understanding the fig tree was symbolic of Israel (Jews). He was using the tree to express to them that like the tree, if they do not bear (spiritual) fruit that they would also wither and die.

Mark 11:12-14 describes the Lord’s only negative miracle. Every other one made something better. This one made something worse, so you know it has to be important. Mark 11:1 says they were in Bethpage and Bethany. Bethpage means house of figs and Bethany means house of dates. Being a few days before Passover it was surprising that the tree was in leaf, because fig trees usually don’t get all their leaves until later in the spring. But since there were leaves there should have at least been signs of fruit.

When used figuratively the fig tree symbolizes Israel. Like the fig tree in leaf, Israel exhibited all the signs of life but had born no fruit. There were no figs in the house of figs. Cursing the tree symbolized the fact that Israel would be cursed for failing to bear the fruit of salvation for a hungry world.


Sylvaine, it seems you lack the understanding and interpretation of Mark 10:18. Jesus question did not disclaim is deity, rather His question to the man is designed to draw him to recognizing His divine identity.

Richard Bauckham, gave a lecture about about the christology of Mark's gospel. He made brief discussion on the story of the Rich Young Ruler who met Jesus (Mk 10:17-31). It looks like Jesus is rebuking the Ruler for calling him 'good' because only God - not Jesus - is good. But it was not so... Rather he is using a penetrating question to push the man (and Mark is pushing his readers) to think through the implications of his own words to Jesus.

 

[StanJon]

So, is there an answer yet ? All the followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form. Did Jesus ever claim to be God?

According to bible: “God is not a man...nor a son of man…” Numbers 23:19

Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him !!! John 14:28 “My Father is greater than I.” ... John 10:29 “My father is greater than all.” ...The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

Jesus prayed to God all night !!! : Luke 6:12 “he continued all night in prayer to God.”

The Bible says that Jesus could not Do Anything by Himself: John 5:19 “The son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” ... John 5:30 “I can of mine own self do nothing.” So Jesus did not consider himself equal with God, rather he denied doing anything by himself ... if Christ was God, the Bible would simply say that Jesus did the miracles himself without making reference to God. The fact that it was God supplying the power for the miracles shows that God is greater than Jesus

Now, read this : Mark 5:30 “At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’” ... Mark 6:5 “He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.” ... Quite obviously, someone with such limitations can not be God. The power of miracles was not within Jesus.

Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom & learning, but God is All Wise & does not (need to) learn according to bible itself: Psalms 147:5 “Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.” ... however : Luke 2:52: “And Jesus increased in wisdom.” ... God does not need to learn, but Jesus learned !!!

Bible says that Jesus’ powers were given to him: Matt 28:18 “All power is given unto me.” ... God is all-powerful, no one gives God His powers, otherwise He would not be God because He would be weak.

Therefore again, Jesus could not be God.

All of your questions have been answered and i hope your dark mind towards Jesus has been illuminated.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and he is in fact divine.

 

[Sylviane88]

All of your questions have been answered and i hope your dark mind towards Jesus has been illuminated.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and he is in fact divine.

Ok I'm reading your answers, and soon you'll get my detailed comments ( I apologize because I am currently very busy with my studies at the Univ ).

 

[UndeadCrow]

No. We don't want anymore comments from deluded Christians, like you. Just stop...

 

[StanJon]

No. We don't want anymore comments from deluded Christians, like you. Just stop...

If you don't have anything positive to say concerning the topic, just but out! If you don't want to see anymore comment, you have a choice NOT TO OPEN THE THREAD. Simply as that.

 

[UndeadCrow]

If you don't have anything positive to say concerning the topic, just but out! If you don't want to see anymore comment, you have a choice NOT TO OPEN THE THREAD. Simply as that.

Do you really think this thread is even a two-sided debate? No. It's just two christians bickering about nonsense that over half of the people here don't even believe in.

 

[StanJon]

Do you really think this thread is even a two-sided debate? No. It's just two christians bickering about nonsense that over half of the people here don't even believe in.

It takes two person in disagreement on viewpoints, opinions, a subject, etc. to have a debate Crow. Not five, ten or the thousands of people who populate this site who don't believe in what we are discussing.

Sylvaine ask a question concerning my faith so i replied. If it does not concern you, you can do like the thousands of people who don't believe in what we are discussing and don't participate. But if you have a question or opinion on the topic, you post it, otherwise don't come with your egotism.

 

[UndeadCrow]

It takes two person in disagreement on viewpoints, opinions, a subject, etc. to have a debate Crow. Not five, ten or the thousands of people who populate this site who don't believe in what we are discussing.

Sylvaine ask a question concerning my faith so i replied. If it does not concern you, you can do like the thousands of people who don't believe in what we are discussing and don't participate. But if you have a question or opinion on the topic, you post it, otherwise don't come with your egotism.

Go ahead...further delude yourself to the point where you can't even tell the difference between reality and imagination.

 

[Sylviane88]

Go ahead...further delude yourself to the point where you can't even tell the difference between reality and imagination.

Be at least civilized and respect the others' views :thumbup​