If God is the most powerful being...

[All Else Failed]

Magic, there is one simple thing you must understand: God knowing how you are going to act + him already knowing where you are going to go after you die = Your decisions in life are meaningless since they are already known to him.




Also, Adam and Eve are an interesting thing. WHY exactly would god punish all of humanity for two people's mistake? Thats sort of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Magic P]

Magic, there is one simple thing you must understand: God knowing how you are going to act + him already knowing where you are going to go after you die = Your decisions in life are meaningless since they are already known to him.




Also, Adam and Eve are an interesting thing. WHY exactly would god punish all of humanity for two people's mistake? Thats sort of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

All else failed, it seems that way if you look at it as a whole thing but as the time being, we still made those choices, God just knows it in advance that's all. God is not punishing us for Adam and Eve's fault. We are paying off our own mistakes and also Adam and Eve are not the only people who committed sins if you look at the whole human history.

 

[Reaver]

All else failed, it seems that way if you look at it as a whole thing but as the time being, we still made those choices, God just knows it in advance that's all.

You really don't understand this base concept, do you? The fact that God is infallible + God knowing what you will do before you do it = you cannot make a choice other than what he has seen. I really fail to see why you believe the way you do... God knows about your choices in advance, but you still make up your own mind??? If that's true then God cannot be all-knowing, since you obviously made a choice he didn't know you were going to make. Your argument honestly does not make sense in a logical format. You're arguing for both at the same time, but it simply cannot work that way.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Looks familiar....

Parents often know what their kids are going to do before the kid does it, because the parent knows the child. How much more so would God know us? Would you argue that a child had no freewill in a certain situation because the parent knew the outcome?

Foreknowledge and free will do not cancel out to zero. Likewise, the creator of an item is not responsible for the user of said item. Your comparison is similar to saying Diesel is responsible for the thousands of deaths that automobiles have caused over the years, and whoever you want to give credit to for the creation of the gun is responsible for the wars and murders over the years.

 

[Reaver]

I knew this topic had to have been discussed before, but I really didn't want to look it up.

 

[Dodge_Sniper]

He did make our lives very simply before but Eve chose to rebel and now we are suffering from our own consequences. God is not controlling and because he's all powerful, even if we choose not to follow him, I am sure he's more than fine. But he loves us and his son died us so we could have a relationship with him. We made this maze this way and God says, learn your lesson in the maze but I will be with you and give you strength to get out of here in the end. When you don't have God, it's when you are alone in the maze.

So you're basically saying that we're just here because some ignorant girl ate some apple billions of years ago?

Looks familiar....

That is not the same. A parent is not an all powerful being which had books written after them and supposedly controls the fate of all humans and the world.

For now, I'll stick to my theories. There can't be free will if God already knows what we are going to do. Which means there is really nothing random in the world, because God already knows we're going to do whatever it is we are about to do.

 

[All Else Failed]

All else failed, it seems that way if you look at it as a whole thing but as the time being, we still made those choices, God just knows it in advance that's all. God is not punishing us for Adam and Eve's fault. We are paying off our own mistakes and also Adam and Eve are not the only people who committed sins if you look at the whole human history.

You are still not seeing my point....god knows what you will do and therefore has all ready decided if you are to go into heaven or hell.

I kind of see perpetual sin that we are born with (and therefore makes us unworthy and evil right from birth) certainly as a punishment.

 

[Magic P]

ok so free will cannot exist if God is all knowing, but do we wanna have free will though? I mean to some extent you wanna be looked after and be in control in a way that someone out there has your fate sorted out, don't you?

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

I see you guys' points...but let me just say that our logic and reasoning as humans cannot ever possibly comprehend how things work from a divine perspective. God requires us to have FAITH. The faithful are rewarded...sure people are going to question God and his power and his existance, and while we have discovered that science CAN prove a lot of the bible right, there are still things that are yet to be figured out and scientifically proven, and that for some leaves doubt and question in mind. Whether you believe or not is your own personal choice, and I am not one of those bible beaters that is going to judge you for your actions or your choices, but in the same respect who are you guys to sit here and pick apart other people's beliefs? The concept of God being omniscient is incomprehensible for some I guess, and it isn't some huge paradox that God wants us to sit here and debate over....he knows who will and who won't understnad

 

[TheOriginalJames]

He did make our lives very simply before but Eve chose to rebel and now we are suffering from our own consequences. God is not controlling and because he's all powerful, even if we choose not to follow him, I am sure he's more than fine. But he loves us and his son died us so we could have a relationship with him. We made this maze this way and God says, learn your lesson in the maze but I will be with you and give you strength to get out of here in the end. When you don't have God, it's when you are alone in the maze.

See here's the part I have a problem with. Adam and Eve. The supposed first humans on the planet.

No rules, no laws, no education.

Do you REALLY believe they understood the consequences of their actions at the time? When telling this story, as I think back to church, the pastors and youth pastors put this story into the context of TODAY, where we have established laws, rules, and civilization.

Think back. You were just created from nothing. Somebody wanders up and says, hey eat this apple. What wrong could it do? Do you THINK they could even begin to comprehend the consequences with no prior knowledge of what good/evil is, and no prior experiences of punishment?

God isn't all knowing and loving. He wouldn't have kicked them out of the Garden of Eden. God should have understood this since he is perfect.

 

[All Else Failed]

ok so free will cannot exist if God is all knowing, but do we wanna have free will though? I mean to some extent you wanna be looked after and be in control in a way that someone out there has your fate sorted out, don't you?

There is no such thing as "free will". Every choice is influenced by something. Our choices are forced by consequences that we take into account by doing something. You may say "Well we still make a choice there" but it's not really free will when outside forces determine what you will do.

 

[All Else Failed]

I see you guys' points...but let me just say that our logic and reasoning as humans cannot ever possibly comprehend how things work from a divine perspective. God requires us to have FAITH. The faithful are rewarded...sure people are going to question God and his power and his existance, and while we have discovered that science CAN prove a lot of the bible right, there are still things that are yet to be figured out and scientifically proven, and that for some leaves doubt and question in mind. Whether you believe or not is your own personal choice, and I am not one of those bible beaters that is going to judge you for your actions or your choices, but in the same respect who are you guys to sit here and pick apart other people's beliefs? The concept of God being omniscient is incomprehensible for some I guess, and it isn't some huge paradox that God wants us to sit here and debate over....he knows who will and who won't understnad

Meh, I don't really like the argument of "We don't understand it, so lets leave it at that." I sort of see that as calling it quits, lets at least TRY to figure stuff out.


Why does it seem like that the religious people on here think that me and other skeptics are "picking apart their beliefs" when MERELY asking questions and asserting arguments about religion? In the public arena, it's common practice to call into motion someone's beliefs, that doesn't mean we are tearing what your believe down. Would you call a Christian explaining something to an atheist that might be contrary to his beliefs as "picking apart his belief system?"

If he knows who will not "understand" him and thus not be a believer then how can he possibly let us be punished for something he has set into motion himself?

I'm not attacking you here...lets make that clear...since some people on here think I'm supposedly trying to make them not believe in religion or something.

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

Meh, I don't really like the argument of "We don't understand it, so lets leave it at that." I sort of see that as calling it quits, lets at least TRY to figure stuff out.


Why does it seem like that the religious people on here think that me and other skeptics are "picking apart their beliefs" when MERELY asking questions and asserting arguments about religion? In the public arena, it's common practice to call into motion someone's beliefs, that doesn't mean we are tearing what your believe down. Would you call a Christian explaining something to an atheist that might be contrary to his beliefs as "picking apart his belief system?"

If he knows who will not "understand" him and thus not be a believer then how can he possibly let us be punished for something he has set into motion himself?

I'm not attacking you here...lets make that clear...since some people on here think I'm supposedly trying to make them not believe in religion or something.

AEF, I appreciate the honesty of your post..and I think it was made with tact, however I do think some you have made in the past have been done so distastefully. And honestly, I don't know the answer to your question. I just know what I believe, and why I believe it personally...but I can't make other people believe anything..and I think the problem is that we are trying to answer with logic things which are concerned with faith...which can't always be logically explained. Sure it might sound like a cop out, I can see where youd think that...but honest to God's truth, I'm just a crappy debater.

 

[All Else Failed]

Alright then, I can respect that if thats how you feel.

 

[Magic P]

AEF would be a successful business men.

 

[SilentEyz]

Free Will, Wow what a discussion this has been, And It has made me do some reading and a bit of thinking. I avoid these topics for a reason, but this one just seems to knaw at me. So


Do we have free will ? Yes, but I dont believe it is in the sense yall are asking about, Reminds me of the parable of the Seeds.

Some of you believe that everything is pre-determined so there really can be no free will. but I think there is a point Missing here. Although our destinations in life, and the trials we face may be predetermined, how we face them, and what road we choose when we face them, Is our Free Will.

as long as there is a choice in the matter, then free will takes effect, Seriously without FreeWill we would all be just walking Zombies, there would never be a question of should I or shouldnt I, because the answer would be obvious to us.

Like, I Read this thread, And I have the Choice to believe that Free Will really does not exist and therfore everything I have learned and been taught in my Life is BS, Or I have the choice to Know that Free Will is there and Therefore My faith is not misplaced. And that Choice is What Free Will is about, As long as you have A choice, you have Freewill, Now you can tell me that my thoughts on that are predetermined, But that would be false,

Again it is just an opinion based on my faith and my beliefs, but there is no way to Prove which belief is true. Tests of our lives, having to repeat mistakes? What if's? those are all proof of free Will.

And Choosing to have this Debate is your FreeWill Kicking in, otherwise, why would you need to debate, it would be a given without anyone to Question you, because it would be fate that says, You have a mind to think, to debate, to argue, Why would you not think that mind also has the power of Free Will?

Facing this Thread and This Debate was the Given.. Choosing to post and Not believe that which I am being told, Is my Free Will.

 

[Kat]

awsome post silent...god i wish i had your way with words...

especially this part(since i forgot to quote and im being lazy):

Although our destinations in life, and the trials we face may be predetermined, how we face them, and what road we choose when we face them, Is our Free Will.

that was the point i was trying to make in another thread.

*steps out after saying what she wanted to*

 

[memento_mori]

there is no such thing as an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-benevolent being to me. these kinds of paradoxes are why. if this being is making us go through this maze, or series of destinations in life and roads we take to reach them, or however you want to say it, sounds like a game to me. a game some people believe could end in hell. that does not sound like an all-benevolent being to me. if the being doesnt know what choices we will make, then the being is not all-knowing. if the being cannot stop a person that freely chooses to go to hell, and the being can't prevent that from happening, then the being is not all powerful.

if you want to believe in an almost all-powerful/knowing/benevolent god with just enough breathing room to give us free will, go for it. you just have to define 'god' a bit differently.

and no, i don't think i'd want to live in a world with out free will.

 

[icecuban]

Blindly following a religion is never a good thing.

I don't care if you have faith but the least you could do is try to explain your reasoning. Or just at least admit that free will and predetermined life courses cannot coexist.

That's like saying two vehicles can occupy the same place at the same time without colliding. The laws of physics tell me otherwise.

it is not following, it is the grandest thought of all! i dont think they teach this stuff anywhere. it is both, because it can, can u not sit and meditate on that for hours, i mean, two seemingly contradictory things here, may just make total sense there, im not even there, and its already starting to get clearer to me. i am here, but i am not.....does one have to be right and one wrong, since they contradict, i dont see why not. can it not be beyond what we can think. since existance makes all, our thoughts included, cant there also be an x factor that can make both things as real as the other? stretch the mind out. think about it, because i actually do, every day. its like saying the unknown is known just through the word, thus nullifying it, therefor nothing is unknown, because it is known by being unknown, know what i mean? its like the chicken and the egg with fate and free will. like fate knew what was going on before, but it needed the free choice to be known, im not sure if im getting this across, prehaps i'll put something together for u, then i wont sound as blind as u think i am

 

[icecuban]

in my own theories (which i spend much time trying to disproove), i cant help but seperate fate and free will, like they would both poof into thin air without the other