Gun News Talk

[Minor Axis]

It's very simple, a substantial number of gun purchases do require background checks. This is a move to get rid of the loopholes. If you believe in the standard like polls indicate a majority of U.S. citizens do, then getting rid of the loopholes should be no big deal. But it is... politics, conservative, right wing politics.

 

[Accountable]

It's very simple, a substantial number of gun purchases do require background checks. This is a move to get rid of the loopholes. If you believe in the standard like polls indicate a majority of U.S. citizens do, then getting rid of the loopholes should be no big deal. But it is... politics, conservative, right wing politics.

What loopholes?? Do you really expect Joe Blow to pay for a background check before selling his rifle to his neighbor or his neighbor's kid? What would be the logistics of that? Meaning, how can he do that? How much would it cost? What are the consequences for not doing it? How would it be tracked?

It's only simple if you don't think about it.

 

[The Man]

It's very simple, a substantial number of gun purchases do require background checks. This is a move to get rid of the loopholes. If you believe in the standard like polls indicate a majority of U.S. citizens do, then getting rid of the loopholes should be no big deal. But it is... politics, conservative, right wing politics.

You just stated we require background checks...so what's the problem.
Why don't you give me a statistic for gun deaths. ...where you just flop your money on the counter and walk out with the firearm

 

[Accountable]

I did a quick search for "gun sale loophole" and hit this article by Coalition to Stop Gun Violence (it always floors me that so many are more concerned with the tactics and tools, rather than the cause for the violence in the first place). It linked to this article in The Atlantic which asked 13 questions. This is one of my favorites (emphasis is mine):

Are the White House proposals likely to be effective?

There is no way to know whether the recent White House proposals will be effective in reducing gun violence. How can there be, when it's so difficult to assess the actual policies that have already been tried, let alone vague plans? But the White House proposals do at least plausibly target several components of the gun violence problem.

So there's no way of knowing if it will do any good, but hey we're doing something, and isn't that what's really important? :willy_nilly: Never mind that it violates the Constitution and limits the liberties of law-abiding people while not affecting criminals AT ALL.

 

[Alien Allen]

The public demands action

How about those same people helping the cops when there is crime in their neighborhood?

It is a cop out. No pun intended. People in high crime areas bury their head in the sand until it affect them directly.

And those hi crime areas represent the high areas of gun violence. The mass murders are never going to be stopped with gun control

But gun control sounds like a great idea and addresses the emotional and not the rational response.

 

[Joe the meek]

What loopholes?? Do you really expect Joe Blow to pay for a background check before selling his rifle to his neighbor or his neighbor's kid? What would be the logistics of that? Meaning, how can he do that? How much would it cost? What are the consequences for not doing it? How would it be tracked?

It's only simple if you don't think about it.

Very simple, and it's the same thing you do when you buy a rifle or handgun from out of state, you run it through a FFL and pay $20 for the service.

ANY time a gun of mine gets sold privately in state, a copy of the buyers CCW permit is required on my end as well as a bill of sale signed. Protects my ass.

If one lived in a state that had strict gun control measures in place, they could always drive out of state for a buy via an online sale in a neighboring state that has less control, and buy it privately without any form of identification if the seller didn't require any.

 

[Accountable]

Very simple, and it's the same thing you do when you buy a rifle or handgun from out of state, you run it through a FFL and pay $20 for the service.

ANY time a gun of mine gets sold privately in state, a copy of the buyers CCW permit is required on my end as well as a bill of sale signed. Protects my ass.

If one lived in a state that had strict gun control measures in place, they could always drive out of state for a buy via an online sale in a neighboring state that has less control, and buy it privately without any form of identification if the seller didn't require any.

Not sure what FFL means but I'm sure it's some kind of database.
Protects your ass from what, exactly? Are you required to do that by law? What are the consequences for not doing it? How would it be tracked?

 

[Joe the meek]

Not sure what FFL means but I'm sure it's some kind of database. Protects your ass from what, exactly? Are you required to do that by law? What are the consequences for not doing it? How would it be tracked?

I find it amazing you don't know what FFL means.

"Federal Firearms License"

Anytime you buy a gun in your state from a gunshop, you buy it from a FFL dealer. I protect my ass because if I sell a gun to a felon or if someone uses a gun I sold in a crime, it is possible that if I'm the original owner, the gun will be traced back to my original purchase. By requiring a conceal carry permit to purchace a firearm from myself in a private sale, I'm protecting myself because the person buying the gun shows he has the proper background check by the state to ensure he or she is legal to purchase a firearm. If the police show up at my door because a gun I sold has been used in a crime, I can supply them with the paperwork on who I sold it to along with the documentation from the state that they were "legal" to purchase the firearm.

Am I required to do this? No.

Fact is, people who can't legally own guns due to their past DO buy guns in private sales because the people selling the gun has no requirements other than cash. Hard to believe, but sometimes people from large cities with strict gun control laws drive out of state to states with lax controls and buy guns with cash, no paperwork required, then drive back to city and sell them to people for a 500% markup. Buy 10 pistols at $500 bucks each and turn around and sell them for $1,500 each taking 5 days out of your time including about a grand for gas and hotel expenses, not a bad for a weeks worth of work.

A gun is a tool designed to kill. I don't take lightly selling a tool designed to kill to someone I don't know from jack crap.

 

[Accountable]

I find it amazing you don't know what FFL means.

I've never bought or sold a gun. :shrug:

The post is useful information. Thanks.

For Joe, Minor, or anyone else: how would mandating such actions work? How could things be tracked? What would you estimate the punishment should be? It wouldn't be like selling a car because you don't park guns on the street with an 8x12 license plate.

 

[Joe the meek]

All I know is selling a firearm to any Tom, Dick and Harry off the street who will give you the money is just plain wrong, let alone potentially stupid.

That was the whole thing about buying guns at gun shows. No background checks.

Heck, if a guy sells me a gun off the street and doesn't want to sign a bill of sale and see my proper identification showing I'm legally able to purchase a gun, that scares the living crap out of me wondering where the gun might of been.

Then you have local stories like this

http://www.journalnow.com/news/local/article_2dc6e652-ab6b-11e2-842a-001a4bcf6878.html

 

[The Man]

All I know is selling a firearm to any Tom, Dick and Harry off the street who will give you the money is just plain wrong, let alone potentially stupid.

That was the whole thing about buying guns at gun shows. No background checks.

Heck, if a guy sells me a gun off the street and doesn't want to sign a bill of sale and see my proper identification showing I'm legally able to purchase a gun, that scares the living crap out of me wondering where the gun might of been.

Then you have local stories like this

http://www.journalnow.com/news/local/article_2dc6e652-ab6b-11e2-842a-001a4bcf6878.html

All I know is selling a firearm to any Tom, Dick and Harry off the street who will give you the money is just plain wrong, let alone potentially stupid.

Actually you have no way of knowing either way regardless of the guys credentials....then to further it could get resold later or stolen.
Your argument is almost in alignment for those who wish to eliminate firearms altogether.

Heck, if a guy sells me a gun off the street and doesn't want to sign a bill of sale and see my proper identification showing I'm legally able to purchase a gun, that scares the living crap out of me wondering where the gun might of been.

Dont be so paranoid joe out of the hundreds of millions of guns in the US..your chance of buying a "murder weapon" is about the same as winning the lottery.

I would like to take the time to point out here that the automobile is responsible for more deaths by far....should we have background checks on people buying a car?.....perhaps prosecute the seller if the buyer has had Prior DWI offenses?

To me there is a difference between selling a gun to someone who wants one to commit a crime {which I agree should be a prosecutable offense}....verses guessing what a guy might do due to his background.

We are presuming "guilt" on an individual.

To further.... a man with a bad background for say "hot checks"...can get his home invaded just like the person without a record.
So you cant defend yourself as you have a record?
Me thinks the liberals need to take a backseat on this and let the rest figure it out.

 

[The Man]

To add...felons can purchase antique style firearms...history has shown us thousands up thousands who have died from these as well.
A gun is a gun....no less dangerous to the one on the other end of the barrel.
But......the shooter is now in danger as these firearms are more apt to cause serious injury to the shooter himself.
I am not advocating to deny permission for felons to own these...am just pointing out the hypocrisy we have with current laws.
Just as well deny the purchase of kitchen knives, screw drivers, ball bats,chainsaws,rat poison, Tylenol,gasoline,electricity,rope wire,tire tools and hundreds of other items as well.
Or hell pressure cookers nails and BBs.
Fact is if someone wants to kill they will get it done....to further to deny the sale of a gun to a felon is kinda silly...if the guy is willing to shoot to kill illegally..he would also be willing to steal firearms if he cant purchase them..or buy them illegally.
The gun isnt the problem...its the guy holding it....A background check will not stop a killer from killing.

 

[Accountable]

We are presuming "guilt" on an individual.

It's the new American way.

* Patriot Act
*TSA

 

[Joe the meek]

Actually you have no way of knowing either way regardless of the guys credentials....then to further it could get resold later or stolen.
Your argument is almost in alignment for those who wish to eliminate firearms altogether.

If a person has a valid conceal carry permit in North Carolina, they have met the requirements set forth by the state to purchase a handgun with limited paperwork.

The gun may get stolen from the person who I sold it to, but there is still the possibility that if I'm the original owner, the serial number could be traced back to me from the original sale. By keeping valid records including bill of sales where any of my firearms are sold "privately", I have a paper trail on who bought the gun from me so law enforcement will know who to look at "next".

Do a web search on "straw purchases" relating to guns. The practice is illegal, and keeping paperwork only helps, not hurts.

I don't presume guilt on anyone. I do however assume stupidity when dealing with people. A CC permit does not mean someone isn't stupid, but it does show me they took the time to meet the state requirement (just as producing a pistol permit).

A gun is tool designed specifically for killing.

 

[Joe the meek]

Dont be so paranoid joe out of the hundreds of millions of guns in the US..your chance of buying a "murder weapon" is about the same as winning the lottery.

I'm not paranoid, I just want to ensure the person I'm buying the gun from has no issues with paperwork and keeping things "above board". Never met a man who had a gun I wanted who was.

 

[The Man]

Actually you have no way of knowing either way regardless of the guys credentials....then to further it could get resold later or stolen.
Your argument is almost in alignment for those who wish to eliminate firearms altogether.

If a person has a valid conceal carry permit in North Carolina, they have met the requirements set forth by the state to purchase a handgun with limited paperwork.

The gun may get stolen from the person who I sold it to, but there is still the possibility that if I'm the original owner, the serial number could be traced back to me from the original sale. By keeping valid records including bill of sales where any of my firearms are sold "privately", I have a paper trail on who bought the gun from me so law enforcement will know who to look at "next".

Do a web search on "straw purchases" relating to guns. The practice is illegal, and keeping paperwork only helps, not hurts.

I don't presume guilt on anyone. I do however assume stupidity when dealing with people. A CC permit does not mean someone isn't stupid, but it does show me they took the time to meet the state requirement (just as producing a pistol permit).

A gun is tool designed specifically for killing.

A gun is tool designed specifically for killing.

No...a gun can be used to kill.
Many people shoot cans and other targets.
Then there is hunting{yes killing}...we are talking about people killing people however for the scope of this topic.
A gun is a tool...nothing more..abusing the tool to kill people with is a choice an individual makes.
Same can be said for a chopping ax.

If a person has a valid conceal carry permit in North Carolina, they have met the requirements set forth by the state to purchase a handgun with limited paperwork.

Which is fine,,,however you just make the argument that a gun is a tool specifically designed for killing...so how could you support civilians having tools designed specifically for killing?
To further that gun can get resold or stole to end up in the hands of someone else....additionally just because someone has a conceal and carry permit doesnt mean they wont use it to kill...Why else would they purchase a tool "designed specifically for killing" as you have described?

Do a web search on "straw purchases" relating to guns. The practice is illegal, and keeping paperwork only helps, not hurts.

You are aware of the problem and know it exists....prior you stated
"All I know is selling a firearm to any Tom, Dick and Harry off the street who will give you the money is just plain wrong, let alone potentially stupid. "

Which is where the arms you sell can end up......So selling to anyone would be stupid with that logic.

Which is supported below by your following statement

The gun may get stolen from the person who I sold it to, but there is still the possibility that if I'm the original owner, the serial number could be traced back to me from the original sale. By keeping valid records including bill of sales where any of my firearms are sold "privately", I have a paper trail on who bought the gun from me so law enforcement will know who to look at "next".

Your concern seems to be covering your ass rather than what happens to the gun later...as a matter of fact the odds are high enough that you want to keep your ass covered as shown by above statement.

As long as you make a dollar off the deal hey ?

 

[Joe the meek]

No...a gun can be used to kill.
Many people shoot cans and other targets.
Then there is hunting{yes killing}...we are talking about people killing people however for the scope of this topic.
A gun is a tool...nothing more..abusing the tool to kill people with is a choice an individual makes.
Same can be said for a chopping ax.

Wrong, the primary reason a gun is developed is to kill, plain and simple. May be killing for food or may be killing for war, but it's still killing. A chopping ax was designed to chop wood (unless you get into some "battlefield" designs). It can be used for other things, but it's primary design is for chopping.

I've been using my .300 Win for target shooting long before the .338 came out, so I also know about punching holes.

 

[Minor Axis]

I've basically given up on this debate in this forum. The group of people participating here is so small and polarized, that it is not productive wasting the time to post. You'll see less and less of me and that is worthy of a cheer to at least to some of you.

It all boils down to having a serious issue (guns and gun deaths) and a group of tone deaf people who have placed their perception of the ease of gun ownership, no regulations, no records, as their number one priority, because they are waiting for the next revolution. This is the most important thing to them. Who cares if 20+k people are killed each year by guns, it could be a million, it could be worse than the wild west out there, but by God no one is going to take my gun! Even though no one is trying to take their guns.

 

[Alien Allen]

tone deaf eh?

you parrot the crap you are spoon fed and are just as guilty

 

[The Man]

Wrong, the primary reason a gun is developed is to kill, plain and simple. May be killing for food or may be killing for war, but it's still killing. A chopping ax was designed to chop wood (unless you get into some "battlefield" designs). It can be used for other things, but it's primary design is for chopping.

I've been using my .300 Win for target shooting long before the .338 came out, so I also know about punching holes.

Again a gun can be used to kill they are not designed to kill exclusively .....many are marketed as target rifles for instance....You admit to using a rifle for target shooting for instance.
Truth be known thousands of rounds are shot at targets for each round fired at a person.....a gun is not designed exclusively to kill...no more than a bottle of whiskey is.
People use a gun to commit crimes ....it is abuse of the gun...not the fault of the gun....just as well have background checks for kitchen knives with the liberals logic.