Good Without Gods

[Peter Parka]

:clap Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ

 

[Panacea]

My basis for a moral code came largely just from observations; what is nice and seems right versus what is mean and seems wrong. It's simple, no one needs to worship a creator in order to develop a reasonable system of morality.

 

[darkcgi]

my moral code is very comiplex
depends on if im dr jekyll or mr. hyde

 

[Diggin Deep]

People don’t need to believe in God to discern moral duties or understand that objective moral values exist. You don't have to be a believer to understand right and wrong or live an exlemplary life. However, good cannot be defined without purpose, and purpose cannot be defined without cause.

Without a cause possessing meaning and purpose, there can be no morality in effect. Without a moral law giver, there can be nothing called ‘good,’ nor can there be anything called ‘evil.’ The logic works this way: if there’s such a thing as evil, you must assume there’s such a thing as good. If you assume there’s such a thing as good, you assume there’s such a thing as an absolute and unchanging moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. If you assume there’s such a thing as an absolute moral law, you must posit an absolute moral law giver, but that would be God.

If there’s not a moral law giver, there’s no moral law. If there’s no moral law, there’s no good. If there’s no good, there’s no evil.

“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.” C.S. Lewis

 

[Niamh]

People don’t need to believe in God to discern moral duties or understand that objective moral values exist. You don't have to be a believer to understand right and wrong or live an exlemplary life. However, good cannot be defined without purpose, and purpose cannot be defined without cause.

Without a cause possessing meaning and purpose, there can be no morality in effect. Without a moral law giver, there can be nothing called ‘good,’ nor can there be anything called ‘evil.’ The logic works this way: if there’s such a thing as evil, you must assume there’s such a thing as good. If you assume there’s such a thing as good, you assume there’s such a thing as an absolute and unchanging moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. If you assume there’s such a thing as an absolute moral law, you must posit an absolute moral law giver, but that would be God.

If there’s not a moral law giver, there’s no moral law. If there’s no moral law, there’s no good. If there’s no good, there’s no evil.

“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.” C.S. Lewis

Not necessarily, the saying treat others the way you would like to be treated doesn't need an explanation other than you wouldn't like to be raped, assaulted, murdered or whatever so you shouldn't do it to others.

 

[Peter Parka]

People don’t need to believe in God to discern moral duties or understand that objective moral values exist. You don't have to be a believer to understand right and wrong or live an exlemplary life. However, good cannot be defined without purpose, and purpose cannot be defined without cause.

Without a cause possessing meaning and purpose, there can be no morality in effect. Without a moral law giver, there can be nothing called ‘good,’ nor can there be anything called ‘evil.’ The logic works this way: if there’s such a thing as evil, you must assume there’s such a thing as good. If you assume there’s such a thing as good, you assume there’s such a thing as an absolute and unchanging moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. If you assume there’s such a thing as an absolute moral law, you must posit an absolute moral law giver, but that would be God.

If there’s not a moral law giver, there’s no moral law. If there’s no moral law, there’s no good. If there’s no good, there’s no evil.

“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.” C.S. Lewis

I personally think its better if a person tries to do the right thing, not because of any consequenses but because they are good. There is nothing good about doing the right thing because you think a god will punish you if you dont.

 

[Panacea]

If there’s not a moral law giver, there’s no moral law. If there’s no moral law, there’s no good. If there’s no good, there’s no evil.

The moral law givers could just as easily technically just be humans themselves, not necessarily a perfect creator. Moral laws are for humans, by humans, based on the way the majority of us experience the world. That majority experience has determined what is right and wrong, and has been passed down for generations, with changes made as that majority experience takes new shapes.

 

[Diggin Deep]

Not necessarily, the saying treat others the way you would like to be treated doesn't need an explanation other than you wouldn't like to be raped, assaulted, murdered or whatever so you shouldn't do it to others.

I agree...like I said...you do not have to know God or believe in Him to do good. However, how does one know what is good or bad without someone or something instilling those values in them?

 

[Diggin Deep]

I personally think its better if a person tries to do the right thing, not because of any consequenses but because they are good. There is nothing good about doing the right thing because you think a god will punish you if you dont.

I think there is a huge misconception regarding God and punishment...just saying

 

[Niamh]

I agree...like I said...you do not have to know God or believe in Him to do good. However, how does one know what is good or bad without someone or something instilling those values in them?

Because being raped would feel bad. Being assaulted would feel bad. Being murdered would feel bad. Having your property stolen would feel bad. I would not not like it done to me so I would not do it to someone else. God does not enter the equation.

 

[Peter Parka]

I think there is a huge misconception regarding God and punishment...just saying

Sorry, I must have been mistaken. You quote verses from the Bible a lot so I was under the impression that you believe in the Bible.

 

[Diggin Deep]

The moral law givers could just as easily technically just be humans themselves, not necessarily a perfect creator. Moral laws are for humans, by humans, based on the way the majority of us experience the world. That majority experience has determined what is right and wrong, and has been passed down for generations, with changes made as that majority experience takes new shapes.

There still has to be a source or a definition of what good and evil for us to understand and practice good and evil.

I'm not sure we can say that source of objective moral values is self, society, culture or the universe.

The individual may say that if you aren't harming another person, do what you want. In this case, nothing can be labeled as truly wrong. The individual differenciates between good and bad based on their feelings. If two people disagree on what 'good' is, how is the dispute settled? Some claim that changing situations make for changing morality—in different situations different acts are called for that might not be right in other situations. But there are three things by which we must judge an act: the situation, the act, and the intention. For example, we can convict someone of attempted murder (intent) even if they fail (act). So situations are part of the moral decision, for they set the context for choosing the specific moral act (the application of universal principles).

Society or Culture hardly seems like a good possibility given the fact that so many exist. They differ a lot where their moral framework is concerned. Which one is right? For example, in some cultures they love their neighbors, and in others they eat them. One may argue that different values among different cultures show that morals are relative to different people. But this argument confuses the actions of individuals (what they do) with absolute standards (whether they should do it). If culture determines right and wrong, how could we have judged the Nazis? After all, they were only following their culture's morality. Only if murder is universally wrong were the Nazis wrong. The fact that they had “their morality” does not change that. Although many people have different practices of morality, they still share a common morality. For instance, abortionists and anti-abortionists agree that murder is wrong, but they disagree on whether abortion is murder. So, even here, absolute universal morality is shown to be true.

Science admits that an effect must match its cause in essence (i.e. a cause cannot give what it does not have), it seems impossible that amoral matter could create beings obsessed with moral behavior.

 

[Diggin Deep]

Sorry, I must have been mistaken. You quote verses from the Bible a lot so I was under the impression that you believe in the Bible.

You forgot your :sarcasm smilie!

I do believe in the Bible. However, I think people sometimes misunderstand 'punishment' in regards to our daily lives and obedience or lack there of in regards to serving God. I'm not talking about Heaven and Hell type of punishment.

 

[Peter Parka]

You forgot your :sarcasm smilie!

I do believe in the Bible. However, I think people sometimes misunderstand 'punishment' in regards to our daily lives and obedience or lack there of in regards to serving God. I'm not talking about Heaven and Hell type of punishment.

Do you not believe in hell? How about the flood or other numerous accounts in the bible of god killing people because they didn't do what he wanted them to?

 

[Diggin Deep]

Yes I believe in Hell...and Heaven. I think we may just be misunderstanding each other. I really don't want to get into an OT debate. Thankfully, we don't have to worry about another 'great flood' again. However, I didn't think this was the topic of your thread.

 

[Peter Parka]

Well it is quite a lot to do with it really. If you only do something through a fear of being killed, that dosen't make you a good or moral person. Therefore I would say that moral people who don't believe in god have more goodness abouit them than religious people who just follow morals through a fear of going to hell.

 

[Diggin Deep]

Well it is quite a lot to do with it really. If you only do something through a fear of being killed, that dosen't make you a good or moral person. Therefore I would say that moral people who don't believe in god have more goodness abouit them than religious people who just follow morals through a fear of going to hell.

I am a God fearing man, but I don't serve Him out of fear. I serve Him, because I believe He loves me and I genuinely love Him.

I agree that I could be just as good and bad without knowing God. My life is far from exemplary and I know that there are those who don't know God who lead very exemplary lives. However, my point is that the good and evil, moral and ethical decisions that we make must be the result of example - a moral law giver.

 

[Peter Parka]

I am a God fearing man, but I don't serve Him out of fear. I serve Him, because I believe He loves me and I genuinely love Him.

I agree that I could be just as good and bad without knowing God. My life is far from exemplary and I know that there are those who don't know God who lead very exemplary lives. However, my point is that the good and evil, moral and ethical decisions that we make must be the result of example - a moral law giver.

It's a shame you feel that way but I'm not too surprised seeing that religion is all about doing what you're told and not thinking for yourself. I dont need any examples or anyone teling me that murder is wrong for example. It's comes naturally to me. I have different morals to those I was brought up with too because as I got older, I learned to think for myself and realised that some of the religious morals I'd been brought up with are actually disgusting and very immoral.

 

[Diggin Deep]

It's a shame you feel that way but I'm not too surprised seeing that religion is all about doing what you're told and not thinking for yourself. I dont need any examples or anyone teling me that murder is wrong for example. It's comes naturally to me. I have different morals to those I was brought up with too because as I got older, I learned to think for myself and realised that some of the religious morals I'd been brought up with are actually disgusting and very immoral.

Following God is not something that has been forced on me. It was my choice to accept Him. It's my choice to be obedient to Him - no one is holding a gun to my head.

Should we not have governments or laws to abide by? Don't governments and laws prohibit us from from doing what we want, thinking for ourselves, etc.? Just as we have laws of the land, God has laws. If we fail to repent for our sin against God, we will be punished. A judge who pardons law-breakers isn’t a righteous judge. Likewise, overlooking sin would make the holy God unjust. Death is God’s just consequence for sin. “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

Note that I've never been one that has claimed that "Christians" or those who are religious are any better than anyone else. I dislike saying this, but in the end we are all only human. I have been know to party sometimes and have a few drinks. There probably isn't much that you could say about me that isn't true.

At the end of the day Peter...to each their own. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Peter Parka]

I think many laws are unfair and encroach on personal liberty. Laws should be in place to protect people from others and make us safe. They shouldn't be in place to dictate morals to people and babysit people which they all to often do. If what I do dosen't hurt anyone, I dont see that anyone has any business to try and stop me. Unfortunately the government and their laws all too often disagree. Sorry but that argument dosen't wash with me.