Global Warming.

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Goat Whisperer

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Then to each his own. This video didn't persuade me one way or another, it simply backs up my beliefs that this global warming theory is the biggest croc of BS I have ever heard.

How about the government setting up this carbon credit system which has now spawned it's own industry around the world that trade carbon credits between companies that produce more than others. In 2008 the world wide carbon market reached a value $118 billion. Now that is small change compared to what some fortune 500 companies do and that is the entire market, but if they continue on the same trend it will become a huge industry considering how new it is. So what does it mean? More taxable income for big government! It's a giant scam.

Just because some people take advantage of global warming, it doesn't make it a hoax.

I was just letting you know, more then 3/4ths of that video was made up of lies. I can prove it if you want to go into specifics...
 
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KpAtch3s

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Just because some people take advantage of global warming, it doesn't make it a hoax.

I was just letting you know, more then 3/4ths of that video was made up of lies. I can prove it if you want to go into specifics...

No need, it would be a waste of breath.

What's your response to the Newsweek article? Or the tons of sources on the internet that can be found to prove global cooling, just google it to see what I mean.
 

skyblue

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I never said that, I was referring to her being PMed by anonymous members. It sounded like an excuse for this thread to me. On the topic of Global warming, I think alot of it is a crock of shit. Are we to blame probably partly but this type of thing has been going on since the dawn of time. You probably had cow like animals farting methane gas a 1,000,000 years ago. They just didn't have man to bitch about it.

yes it has been happening since the dawn of time,but this time its happening way too fast,man,animals and plants dont have enough time to adapt,which is actually pretty disastrous for life on this planet
 

skyblue

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No need, it would be a waste of breath.

What's your response to the Newsweek article? Or the tons of sources on the internet that can be found to prove global cooling, just google it to see what I mean.

think about it,global cooling is a by product of global warming.....as the ice breaks off the polar cap it drifts south,cooling the air and water
 

Goat Whisperer

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No need, it would be a waste of breath.

What's your response to the Newsweek article? Or the tons of sources on the internet that can be found to prove global cooling, just google it to see what I mean.

How about you prove global cooling. Would please give me an actual argument or at least copy and paste one?
 

HottyToddyChick

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First off- I'd just like to say that I think that it is awesome that someone your age is so dedicated to something larger than herself.

Now- I don't not believe in global warming, but I think there is nothing we can do. The planet goes in cycles. We've had ices ages and periods like this and surely hotter than this. This is just the earth doing what it does. If you think about it, the planet started going through global warming at the end of the last ice age. It's a cycle and I think that we would be fools to mess with something that big.
 

Goat Whisperer

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First off- I'd just like to say that I think that it is awesome that someone your age is so dedicated to something larger than herself.

Now- I don't not believe in global warming, but I think there is nothing we can do. The planet goes in cycles. We've had ices ages and periods like this and surely hotter than this. This is just the earth doing what it does. If you think about it, the planet started going through global warming at the end of the last ice age. It's a cycle and I think that we would be fools to mess with something that big.

The only problem with that idea, is that by the earths natural cycles, we should be cooling right now, not warming up.
 

HottyToddyChick

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How do we really know that, though? Let me also say I haven't personally done a lot research, so this is just how it comes across to me and I would like to learn more.

Man hasn't really been around long in the grand scheme of Earth. And educated man has been around for an even smaller amount of time. How do we know it's not supposed to be heating up? And what has changed so dramatically in the past few years that this is suddenly an issue?
 

Goat Whisperer

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How do we really know that, though? Let me also say I haven't personally done a lot research, so this is just how it comes across to me and I would like to learn more.

Man hasn't really been around long in the grand scheme of Earth. And educated man has been around for an even smaller amount of time. How do we know it's not supposed to be heating up? And what has changed so dramatically in the past few years that this is suddenly an issue?

Okay, well I'll explain how we know when I get to Malkovich cycles, but I am just going to through out all the normal natural variations in climate as well...

We know that this change isn't natural because the usual drivers of natural climate change have shown little to no warming trend since the 70's.

It's a well established fact that climate changes naturally. The question isn't "has climate changed in the past?" (of course it has) but "what is causing global warming now?" To answer that, we need to look at past drivers in climate change.

First, I'll talk about the sun. Solar variations have been the major driving factor for these earths climate in the past 10'000 or so years. We know that when sunspot activity has been low, it has caused little ice ages, and when it has been high it has caused warming (such as the medieval warming period). This tightly nit correlation, however, ended in 1975. This led a team of scientists from Finland and Germany to conclude "during these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source."

Next are the malkovich cycles. Earth's climate undergoes 120,000 year cycle of ice ages, broken by short warm periods called interglacials. Milankovitch cycles are changes in the Earth's orbit trigger an initial warming which warms the oceans and melts ice sheets - this releases CO2. The extra CO2 in the atmosphere causes further warming leading to interglacials ending the ice ages.

For the past 12,000 years, we've been in an interglacial. The current trend of the Milankovitch cycle is a gradual cooling down towards an ice age. But, for some reason were are warming, not cooling.


**Note Makovich cycles are also why carbon appears lag, not lead. In past warming cycles.


Lastly, there's global dimming. Global dimming is the phenomenon in which aerosols from things such as pollution, and mainly from volcanic eruptions, reflect the suns light from the atmosphere, causing a cooling effect. You can see that a series of volcanic eruptions in the 1800's caused a little ice age. These cooling periods from global dimming can last upwards of a decade.


The usual suspects in natural climate change (solar variations, volcanoes, Milankovitch cycles) have been absent over the past 3 decades of warming. This doesn't mean by itself that CO2 is the main cause of current global warming, you don't prove anthropogenic warming by eliminating all other options, but the primary causes of commonly cited climate change in the past have played little part in the current warming trend.


As for CO2, empirical observations show that CO2 has a warming effect as a greenhouse gas, CO2 is increasing in the atmosphere and at the same time the increase in temperature that would be expected is happening. A theory suggesting that it is natural and not caused by CO2 would also need to explain why the expected (and observed) warming from CO2 has not stopped.


Wowie, that was a long post... but your not the first to inquire about natural change, so I thought I would just finally get it all out there!
 

Sneakiecat

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First, I'll talk about the sun. Solar variations have been the major driving factor for these earths climate in the past 10'000 or so years. We know that when sunspot activity has been low, it has caused little ice ages, and when it has been high it has caused warming (such as the medieval warming period). This tightly nit correlation, however, ended in 1975. This led a team of scientists from Finland and Germany to conclude "during these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source."

How did this correlation end? Are we having less solar activity?
 

Goat Whisperer

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Then wouldn't the aerosols and carbon cancel each other out?

No because the heating effect of carbon is much greater then the cooling effect of the aerosols, and we know that because of observation (and I think they did a study on it) we know that the more carbon we have pumped into the atmosphere, the warmer it has gotten, if they canceled each other out, we wouldn't have warmed.
 

HottyToddyChick

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How long does it take to change it? I mean, even we cut our "footprints" in half, then how do we know it won't take 50 years to reverse? This is all be happening from stuff in the early 1900s.
 

Goat Whisperer

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How long does it take to change it? I mean, even we cut our "footprints" in half, then how do we know it won't take 50 years to reverse? This is all be happening from stuff in the early 1900s.

I'm not sure what you mean, are you asking how we know how long it will take for us to change the climate?
 

HottyToddyChick

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^^ What she said.

I don't know. The way I think of it is like sunlight. If God blew the sun out right now, none of us would know for another 8 minutes. How do we know that what we're seeing isn't from a previous generation and we've already made the difference we needed to make and just need to sit back and wait?
 

Goat Whisperer

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I think she means how long will it take to see the effect of cutting carbon.

Well, that won't happen until the future. Were just barely seeing the effects of the carbon we put out 20 years ago, everything we do know will be effecting us later down the road. We have already done some pretty permanent damage (damage we will be feeling full blown in 5-10 years) and many of the scientists I have talked to don't seem to think we have much of a chance. I'm not going to quote anyone because it's off the record, but one of the scientists in the arctic thinks that the polar bears are going extinct from what we have done so far, and there is nothing we can do to reverse it.

The best and most consistent estimate I have gotten is 10 years. We have to stop all out-put of carbon within the next 10 years, or we don't have a chance of changing it.

The more you learn, the scarier it get's. Some of the reports I've read are like scary stories... they make me sick, and I just have to stop reading, I don't want to think about it.
 

Goat Whisperer

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^^ What she said.

I don't know. The way I think of it is like sunlight. If God blew the sun out right now, none of us would know for another 8 minutes. How do we know that what we're seeing isn't from a previous generation and we've already made the difference we needed to make and just need to sit back and wait?

because we know that we haven't made a big enough difference, we haven't even made a difference, we are putting out way more carbon then ever before.

It's better to be safe then sorry, we need to do something now, and not wish we had done something later.
 
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