Execution

[Maritxu]

You can try to justify state mandated murder all you want, but in the end, you must look at the deep ethical and moral situations a person(s) is put into when deciding whether or not to execute (willingly murder someone) a individual.

Agreed.
There's no justification marally for death penalty and it all has to do with moral developement really. Those in the higher stages of moral developement (read Kohlberg for more info) would never support the Death Penalty.

 

[Maritxu]

1) I would phrase it differently...its not so much that I'm willing to kill innocent people as I am capable of making sacrifices for the greater good.

So if they told you to kill 1000 people to achieve world peace you would? it's easy to sacrifice something that doesn't belong to you, right?

3) Oh, so you don't think democracy is a stable form of rule? You don't think an overwhelming majority of individuals with a common viewpoint should pass law and judgment? So what form of government DO you prefer?

If you could see further, you would realise that democracy is the chosen form of goverment in the free countries, but doesn't mean its rules and laws are alwys good and never wrong. If you want to look for some guidance, maybe you should read the Human rights declaration. Those are rights that should bnever be taken from any human being.

6) But ethics only exist as a means of basic law. I mean c'mon, all ethics really are is "if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours". No need to get emotional or spiritual about it whatsoever.

That clearly shows where you stand and why you think this way. Ethics have nothing to do with what you said. Moral developement in low stages hast that assumption. What is really ethical is not what benefits you, but what benefits human beings (individually, because they hold rights that can't be taken away from them), then society and then the individual. But always putting human rights on top, and first.

 

[groundpounder]

I simply cannot accept this concept. This is the main idea I disagree with you on. Life has value, even a scum bag's life retains value.

I think it would just have the opposite effect on society....American culture is already incredibly saturated with violence and death, if those in power whom we are supposed to trust slaughter humans like pigs, then what kind of example is that to the people?

I love the way you play on words to slant your point. Objectivity just flies out the door with you, and you're incendiary language undermines your credibility.

2) I know you won't accept this, but execution is barbaric and a civilized society should have better ways of dealing with criminals.

3) No one should be in the position of ordering people to death, slippery slope.

4) Real murderers are terrible, but they still have rights like anyone else, we can't just ignore them because our emotions get in the way. They just don't magically go away, although limited.

5) People can change. Not all murderers are the same.

6) You're right, death is death. Theres no going back, and its the ultimate price in this reality. So when then, I ask you, should we just flippantly toss the death penalty around like it was like nothing that carries any ethical weight to it?

These are so blatantly biased. It's pathetic that you keep trying to make lucid and objective argument with such unobjective language.

It's hopeless, and that's what makes debate so great!

 

[All Else Failed]

Its called hyperbole, almost everyone does it when making points, and is actually more useful when trying to make objective arguments. Your criticism doesn't even make sense.

 

[Agony]

1) Look at it this way, instead of having thousands of criminals in prison draining our resources and contributing nothing, we kill them all...sure a few innocent people here and there would die, but overall it would benefite society as a whole. [I'm not saying necessarily to kill them all, but just making a point.]



I simply cannot accept this concept. This is the main idea I disagree with you on. Life has value, even a scum bag's life retains value.


I think it would just have the opposite effect on society....American culture is already incredibly saturated with violence and death, if those in power whom we are supposed to trust slaughter humans like pigs, then what kind of example is that to the people?

This is true, our current american culture is too saturated with glorification of violence and torture, but trust me, real life violence is nothing to glorify. People who see and feel violence in real life before their very eyes are not going to find entertainment in such things, instead it will breed fear and respect as it should. That, that is the kind of example it will set for the modern man.

So if they told you to kill 1000 people to achieve world peace you would? it's easy to sacrifice something that doesn't belong to you, right?

You're making assumptions here. Every great experiment starts with one's self. If I was asked to sacrifice one thousand people or even one million people for world peace, I would do it in a heartbeat and then take full responsibility for my actions, for better or for worse.

If you could see further, you would realise that democracy is the chosen form of goverment in the free countries, but doesn't mean its rules and laws are alwys good and never wrong. If you want to look for some guidance, maybe you should read the Human rights declaration. Those are rights that should bnever be taken from any human being.

Again you're putting words in my mouth here. I never claimed that democracy was the best, or even a good form of government...I was simply asking you what you thought about it. Personally I find democracy has one huge fatal flaw that keeps it from being a good form of government, and that is that people are dumb. They are scared, easily manipulated, naive cattle who lose sense of self in any form of group or organization. Things like law and justice are much too important to be left to such people.

That clearly shows where you stand and why you think this way. Ethics have nothing to do with what you said. Moral developement in low stages hast that assumption. What is really ethical is not what benefits you, but what benefits human beings (individually, because they hold rights that can't be taken away from them), then society and then the individual. But always putting human rights on top, and first.

Here I must fully disagree with you. Every single person in existence is simply looking out for one's self. At the very basic core of motives each and every one of us is just as selfish as the next person. There has never been a single selfless person throughout all of existence. All things we do are for personal gain in one way or another whether that be material gain or even simply peace of mind.

 

[groundpounder]

Its called hyperbole, almost everyone does it when making points, and is actually more useful when trying to make objective arguments. Your criticism doesn't even make sense.

Very cool word. That is all.

hy·per·bo·le

/haɪˈpɜr

bə

li/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hahy-pur-buh-lee]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Rhetoric. 1.obvious and intentional exaggeration. 2.an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”


See the irony? hyperbole isn't objective. It's slanted :cool

 

[Maritxu]

Again you're putting words in my mouth here. I never claimed that democracy was the best, or even a good form of government...I was simply asking you what you thought about it. Personally I find democracy has one huge fatal flaw that keeps it from being a good form of government, and that is that people are dumb. They are scared, easily manipulated, naive cattle who lose sense of self in any form of group or organization. Things like law and justice are much too important to be left to such people.

I can agree with SOME that. Democracy means politicians, and they mean manipulation and lies, lol.

Here I must fully disagree with you. Every single person in existence is simply looking out for one's self. At the very basic core of motives each and every one of us is just as selfish as the next person. There has never been a single selfless person throughout all of existence. All things we do are for personal gain in one way or another whether that be material gain or even simply peace of mind.

I don't consider myself that way and I know a lot of very good people who put others before their selfish wantings. And about obtaining peace of mind, I do know that a lot of theorists believe that nobody does anything without obtaining a personal gain, but I think that if that gain is feeling well with yourself, then it's ok, it matters more that they help than why they do it.

 

[All Else Failed]

hy·per·bo·le

/haɪˈpɜr

bə

li/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hahy-pur-buh-lee]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Rhetoric. 1.obvious and intentional exaggeration. 2.an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”


See the irony? hyperbole isn't objective. It's slanted :cool

Um, words can't be "slanted". They are simply tools to use to make a sentence. The author of what is being wrote can be slanted though, and thats basically everyone here that comments on things. Opinions are slanted by nature.

Plus, there are other definitions of the word, not just that one. Hyperboles are just used to make a point more interesting and eye catching.

 

[All Else Failed]

This is true, our current american culture is too saturated with glorification of violence and torture, but trust me, real life violence is nothing to glorify. People who see and feel violence in real life before their very eyes are not going to find entertainment in such things, instead it will breed fear and respect as it should. That, that is the kind of example it will set for the modern man.



You're making assumptions here. Every great experiment starts with one's self. If I was asked to sacrifice one thousand people or even one million people for world peace, I would do it in a heartbeat and then take full responsibility for my actions, for better or for worse.



Again you're putting words in my mouth here. I never claimed that democracy was the best, or even a good form of government...I was simply asking you what you thought about it. Personally I find democracy has one huge fatal flaw that keeps it from being a good form of government, and that is that people are dumb. They are scared, easily manipulated, naive cattle who lose sense of self in any form of group or organization. Things like law and justice are much too important to be left to such people.




Here I must fully disagree with you. Every single person in existence is simply looking out for one's self. At the very basic core of motives each and every one of us is just as selfish as the next person. There has never been a single selfless person throughout all of existence. All things we do are for personal gain in one way or another whether that be material gain or even simply peace of mind.

I disagree. People shouldn't learn about things through fear. Understanding and education through rigorous study of the problem is a much better approach to something. I do agree that violence is glorified in our society though.

 

[Agony]

I can agree with SOME that. Democracy means politicians, and they mean manipulation and lies, lol.
I don't consider myself that way and I know a lot of very good people who put others before their selfish wantings. And about obtaining peace of mind, I do know that a lot of theorists believe that nobody does anything without obtaining a personal gain, but I think that if that gain is feeling well with yourself, then it's ok, it matters more that they help than why they do it.

Ah, you touched on an interesting point here. Of course, most people don't consider themselves selfish or greedy and by society's standards they aren't, but nevertheless all things are done for some form of personal gain. But of course, often these things are to appease those around you so you don't feel isolated and alone and so you can live with yourself...such as opening a door for a lady so she'll think you're kind and notice you or because you believe not doing so would be rude and people would think negatively about you. Your subconscious motive really doesn't matter, what does matter however is the end. The end justifies the means...and thats been my point all along. Sacrifice the nameless and unknown and unwanted for the greater outcome.

I disagree. People shouldn't learn about things through fear. Understanding and education through rigorous study of the problem is a much better approach to something. I do agree that violence is glorified in our society though.

I'll agree that people shouldn't need to be motivated via fear, but unfortunatly many people are boorish and lazy and stupid and have no will of their own to learn. People should constantly seek to learn, to know everything possible within their grasp, the attainment of knowledge is truely the pinnacle of human achievment. But I digress, people need to be motivated by fear or they will never be motivated at all.

 

[All Else Failed]

Ah, you touched on an interesting point here. Of course, most people don't consider themselves selfish or greedy and by society's standards they aren't, but nevertheless all things are done for some form of personal gain. But of course, often these things are to appease those around you so you don't feel isolated and alone and so you can live with yourself...such as opening a door for a lady so she'll think you're kind and notice you or because you believe not doing so would be rude and people would think negatively about you. Your subconscious motive really doesn't matter, what does matter however is the end. The end justifies the means...and thats been my point all along. Sacrifice the nameless and unknown and unwanted for the greater outcome.




I'll agree that people shouldn't need to be motivated via fear, but unfortunatly many people are boorish and lazy and stupid and have no will of their own to learn. People should constantly seek to learn, to know everything possible within their grasp, the attainment of knowledge is truely the pinnacle of human achievment. But I digress, people need to be motivated by fear or they will never be motivated at all.

I agree with the bold part.

 

[Maritxu]

Ah, you touched on an interesting point here. Of course, most people don't consider themselves selfish or greedy and by society's standards they aren't, but nevertheless all things are done for some form of personal gain. But of course, often these things are to appease those around you so you don't feel isolated and alone and so you can live with yourself...such as opening a door for a lady so she'll think you're kind and notice you or because you believe not doing so would be rude and people would think negatively about you. Your subconscious motive really doesn't matter, what does matter however is the end. The end justifies the means...and thats been my point all along. Sacrifice the nameless and unknown and unwanted for the greater outcome.

The nameless and unknown are human beings though, and they don't deserve to die, nobody does. Death is something you can't take back, you can't apologize for it once is done. I also something we preach against, but we do?