Do you Believe in God?

[Minor Axis]

I agree.. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But as it's said, the bible is the word of God, right? Science has disproven so many things the bible claims to be fact about the world around us. So if God exists, that must mean he's either not omnipotent or he's deliberately misleading us.

Honestly, I'm just playing Devil's advocate. I feel the odds of God being as described in the major religions has a low probability, but I can't disprove it either. The description of God as someone who wants a relationship with his kids, but is never seen, makes the concept highly suspect. A God who won't bother to affirm or denie rules that have been put forth in his name, with dire consequences if not followed puts doubt on his existence as described by major religions. However there is so much we don't understand, why couldn't there be parallel plains of existence? If there could be oblivion after death, why couldn't there be an equal chance of something more? For lack of evidence, the discussion moves into the realm of philosophy.

I know I can't disprove god, but you can't prove him either. Let me ask you a fair question: Do you believe in the easter bunny, Santa Claus, fairies and Allah? If you don't believe in them, you deny them. But based on what evidence? Why would someone believe in the Judeo-Christian God but not in Allah or Ganesha? All Gods are based on the same evidence: Someone, a long time ago, looked at the world around him (That's right, HIM, some religions are horribly sexist.) and wondered, how did it all get here? And since he lived at a time where science was non-existent, he assumed there was a supernatural creator, because he didn't know better. Luckily we pulled ourself out of the religious oppression of science (The dark ages) and live in a world of great secularist comfort and knowledge.

I basically agree with you and honestly I don't believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause, but I withhold judgement on ghosts, fairies, extra-terrestrial aliens, and a spiritual existence after physical death. Philosophically, I really do feel there is a purpose to this life, but I can't put my finger on it. While there could be no point at all, then I wonder, just what is the point? That is enough to make me look forward, with fear, but also anticipation when it's time to move on to the next phase of existence. If you don't believe it's there, I don't see that as a big deal, because if I'm right, you and I are both in for one heck of a surprise.

My question to you, could it be possible that upon physical death, the gray veil of this world is lifted and consciousness continues? I say it's a solid maybe!

 

[Tomperi]

My question to you, could it be possible that upon physical death, the gray veil of this world is lifted and consciousness continues? I say it's a solid maybe!

I'm sure it could be possible, but I don't see a reason to think it is. I haven't built myself a bomb shelter, because I don't believe my house is going to be bombed. If I ever see any evidence of bombs dropping on my house, I will build a bomb shelter. Same thing goes for God, i I ever see any conclusive evidence of his existence, I will start praying, but so far: Zilch.

Question: Isn't it rather curious that as secularism has gone up, so has peace and comfort of life as well? In places like the middle east, where religion still is the dominant force, religious minorities are looked down on, women are discriminated against and there is a huge lack of technology. Not to mention all the terrorism..

 

[Danil]

i don't belive in god but my family are catholic and they disapprove of me not beliving in god

 

[Alan Shore]

i don't belive in god but my family are catholic and they disapprove of me not beliving in god

Isn't forcing anyone into the religion very big sin?

I wasn't raised with any sense of religion, but I am raised with sense of energy and that everything is returning at you. You get what you give and I really believe in that.

 

[MommyOfAnAngel]

my simple answer to the question................ nope

 

[Minor Axis]

I'm sure it could be possible, but I don't see a reason to think it is. I haven't built myself a bomb shelter, because I don't believe my house is going to be bombed. If I ever see any evidence of bombs dropping on my house, I will build a bomb shelter. Same thing goes for God, i I ever see any conclusive evidence of his existence, I will start praying, but so far: Zilch.

And I don't hold that against you. It is the classic complete logic, give me only the facts, Atheist view. For myself, in this life there is so much we don't understand, I see no reason to limit my views to what can be proven without a doubt. The point I'm making is that just because you don't believe something, does not mean it does not exist. Consider the analogy of living in a room with no doors or windows. You know something is on the outside, but would you say because I can't see anything or hear anything, I don't believe there is anything there? The better question becomes, what is there?

Question: Isn't it rather curious that as secularism has gone up, so has peace and comfort of life as well? In places like the middle east, where religion still is the dominant force, religious minorities are looked down on, women are discriminated against and there is a huge lack of technology. Not to mention all the terrorism..

This is a separate argument. The first argument is a philosophical one about possibilities after physical death and our place in the universe. This argument is about how humans twist religion to get ahead, take advantage, and manipulate. It adds no weight to an effort to discredit spirituality. However it does trash organized religions, archaic cultural views, and close mindedness.

I wasn't raised with any sense of religion, but I am raised with sense of energy and that everything is returning at you. You get what you give and I really believe in that.

That is a spiritual view and I like it because it's vague. For lack of evidence we can't be expected to come up with anything more specific than that. And the question can be asked, when is "everything returned to you"? During your life on Earth and at some other time?

 

[All Else Failed]

I guess it can be said for non believers too. I mean at some point there has to be something that was just there. If you believe in the big bang theory for example where did the universe come from or the lightning? I choose to believe it makes my life better (for me) b/c it gives me hope, for now and in the future.

Why does there have to be a beginning? There are a lot of books on the subject.

i don't belive in god but my family are catholic and they disapprove of me not beliving in god

Be a man and have your own views.

Yes I believe in God. I want to share to you this quote "Life is like music. It has high notes and low notes. No mater how high or low your notes may be, keep in tune with God and you'll never go out of tune in the music of life.". It is our choice if we believe him or not. We only have two choice's anyway. yes or no Its up to you.

Actually, no, that is not a choice. That is an ultimatum. "You believe in me OR ELSE." That is also a threat.


Think of it this way: A father wants to help his son paint his room. He tells his son that he can choose whatever color he wants to paint it with, any color at all! BUT, it has to be orange. Confused, the boy tells his father that he said he had a "choice" to choose whatever color he wanted. The father responds saying yeah, he can choose whatever color he wants, BUT IT HAS TO BE ORANGE. That is what the "choose him or not" thing literally is.

 

[Minor Axis]

Why does there have to be a beginning? There are a lot of books on the subject.

I'd say it's beyond our comprehension so no need to jump to conclusions.

Think of it this way: A father wants to help his son paint his room. He tells his son that he can choose whatever color he wants to paint it with, any color at all! BUT, it has to be orange. Confused, the boy tells his father that he said he had a "choice" to choose whatever color he wanted. The father responds saying yeah, he can choose whatever color he wants, BUT IT HAS TO BE ORANGE. That is what the "choose him or not" thing literally is.

I like this reasoning for what it illustrates.

 

[All Else Failed]

Well, put it this way. Show me prove that there is NOT a god. Good luck.

I find it a little hard to believe that poof, we all just appeared after some epic explosion that came from... where did this 'big bang' come from??? I'm not saying science is wrong, I just have my own believes. Without faith, life is pretty meaningless...

You are misinformed on what the big bang was. It was not an explosion, but a rapid expansion of time and space. Life didn't just appear, either. Billions of years of evolution formed life.



You're right, life doesn't have any grand meaning at all, and things do not really have any value. The universe is indifferent to us. You have to make your own meaning.

Well, they both lead meaningless, pointless lives where apparently everything ceases to exist beyond death, and they have no reason to behave civilized, since apparently they don't believe that stealing is a sin, since to them, there is no sins. Either way... screw em (off the books, don't take offense Satanists... Oh, what the hell, go ahead and take all the offense you'd like! :24: )

Actually, no, Satanists have a strict ethical code that they live by. They also do not worship or believe in Satan. There is no such thing as a pointless life. As long as you give meaning to things life is not pointless.



Tell me. I am an atheist. Why do I act civilized? Why am I not a criminal?

 

[Minor Axis]

You're right, life doesn't have any grand meaning at all, and things do not really have any value. The universe is indifferent to us. You have to make your own meaning.

The universe is just space, matter, and energy. Of course it is indifferent, just as our house is indifferent to us living in it. But there is no basis to be certain there is no spiritual existence after physical death.

Actually, no, Satanists have a strict ethical code that they live by. They also do not worship or believe in Satan.

I'm sympathetic to the notion that Satan is another simplistic story trying to explain why people are bad and keep you believing in "God". Just remember that historically, you are either with the church or you are against them. Translation: the church trashes any views counter to the endorsed view, along with the people who hold them.

 

[All Else Failed]

Yeah, sure, I don't know for certain. However, going off of what we know, I do not think it is unreasonable to say that there most likely isn't an afterlife or spiritual forces.

 

[pink]

Why does there have to be a beginning? There are a lot of books on the subject.

There doesn't I was just saying that some things are true weather you believe them or not and the proof or non proof isn't there either way you look at it. So some people choose to take the leap of faith and some don't. Either way is fine w/ me. I don't tell people they are wrong for not believing and don't like it when people tell me that I am wrong for believing.

 

[All Else Failed]

There doesn't I was just saying that some things are true weather you believe them or not and the proof or non proof isn't there either way you look at it. So some people choose to take the leap of faith and some don't. Either way is fine w/ me. I don't tell people they are wrong for not believing and don't like it when people tell me that I am wrong for believing.

How do you know they are true?


I don't see why it would be logical to have faith if what you believe in is so largely unsupported by evidence.

 

[Minor Axis]

Yeah, sure, I don't know for certain. However, going off of what we know, I do not think it is unreasonable to say that there most likely isn't an afterlife or spiritual forces.

I'd counter that we don't know that much and staying open minded can't hurt. Philosophy tries to look past what can be proven, as what can be proven is very limited. And all philosophy is, is glorified conjecture and wishful thinking.

If you tell me there is no "God" exactly as described in the Bible or other holy books, without proof, I'd agree with you because the stories don't add up or make much logical sense. But imo because a loved one died and was placed in the ground, does not prove they totally cease to exist. Yes as far as this dimension is concerned they ( a citizen named: fill in the blank) has ceased to exist. And it's fair to make judgments based on what we can see, feel, and touch. But it does not mean those judgments are accurate.

In the end it really does not matter because we will all discover what happens after death, if that means continued consciousness or a black thoughtless void. I'd like to throw in that some circumstance caused the creation of all of us. Is this the first time we've been here? It happened once, if there is eternity to work with, what would prevent if from happening again?

There doesn't I was just saying that some things are true weather you believe them or not and the proof or non proof isn't there either way you look at it. So some people choose to take the leap of faith and some don't. Either way is fine w/ me. I don't tell people they are wrong for not believing and don't like it when people tell me that I am wrong for believing.

Yes, it is faith. I only critique beliefs when they are very specific and usually based on some book written with an agenda in mind.

 

[Tomperi]

And I don't hold that against you. It is the classic complete logic, give me only the facts, Atheist view. For myself, in this life there is so much we don't understand, I see no reason to limit my views to what can be proven without a doubt. The point I'm making is that just because you don't believe something, does not mean it does not exist. Consider the analogy of living in a room with no doors or windows. You know something is on the outside, but would you say because I can't see anything or hear anything, I don't believe there is anything there? The better question becomes, what is there?

Well... Complete logic has gotten us to where we are today. It's the basis of modern science... Yes, there is a lot we don't understand, but filling that void with a baseless assumption stops us from finding out what that void really is.

I know that just because I don't believe something, it doesn't exist, but that works both ways. I know something is outside of that room because I've seen what's outside. If I was born inside that room, and have never seen the outside, I might speculate what's there, but my speculation would just be empty guesses of no value. Until I find out what's really outside of that room, my speculations are worthless, and it certainly doesn't help me find out what's on the outside.

 

[Minor Axis]

I know that just because I don't believe something, it doesn't exist, but that works both ways. I know something is outside of that room because I've seen what's outside. If I was born inside that room, and have never seen the outside, I might speculate what's there, but my speculation would just be empty guesses of no value. Until I find out what's really outside of that room, my speculations are worthless, and it certainly doesn't help me find out what's on the outside.

Your speculations may or may not be worthless. Maybe you'd put up a stethoscope to the wall and then be able to hear something where nothing was heard before. After you heard something, maybe you'd spending effort on creating a new means of gathering information from the other side of the wall. Of course if you were predisposed to believe there could be nothing out side the wall, then you would not even bother, because there would be no point.

A few posts back I mentioned clues, but no proof. Many people believe in ghosts. I am open to such suggestions, but I reserve judgement until I actually see one. If you are opened minded, you would say, more study is needed. If you are close minded and you've all ready decided, you might say, "naw it's nothing, just old wives tales". This could be a clue, but if you've made up your mind there are no spirits, and no energy that represents what once was a human being, well then you've closed yourself off from an avenue of investigation and possibilities.

My effort is not to make you believe in ghosts, but to not limit yourself to just what is provable, because there are many things not proven today which may be proven in the future.

 

[pink]

In the end it really does not matter because we will all discover what happens after death, if that means continued consciousness or a black thoughtless void. I'd like to throw in that some circumstance caused the creation of all of us. Is this the first time we've been here? It happened once, if there is eternity to work with, what would prevent if from happening again?

I personally would rather believe and be wrong than not believe and be wrong:eek

Plus I enjoy my belief so it does me good

 

[Tomperi]

Your speculations may or may not be worthless. Maybe you'd put up a stethoscope to the wall and then be able to hear something where nothing was heard before. After you heard something, maybe you'd spending effort on creating a new means of gathering information from the other side of the wall. Of course if you were predisposed to believe there could be nothing out side the wall, then you would not even bother, because there would be no point.

A few posts back I mentioned clues, but no proof. Many people believe in ghosts. I am open to such suggestions, but I reserve judgement until I actually see one. If you are opened minded, you would say, more study is needed. If you are close minded and you've all ready decided, you might say, "naw it's nothing, just old wives tales". This could be a clue, but if you've made up your mind there are no spirits, and no energy that represents what once was a human being, well then you've closed yourself off from an avenue of investigation and possibilities.

My effort is not to make you believe in ghosts, but to not limit yourself to just what is provable, because there are many things not proven today which may be proven in the future.

Putting a stethoscope to the wall and listen is doing research, speculating what may have emitted those sounds, and making up a conclusive explanation based on no further evidence, is not.

I don't believe in ghosts, but I don't rule them out. I'm just waiting for evidence in one direction or another.

I do stick to things that have been proven, and I embrace new theories that are based on solid fact. If I assume a thing is a certain way, I'm glad when someone proves me wrong.

 

[Minor Axis]

I personally would rather believe and be wrong than not believe and be wrong:eek

Plus I enjoy my belief so it does me good

That's called Hedging-Your-Bets faith. It's been shown that people with strong faith and positive outlooks have improved health. That is a separate issue.

 

[Minor Axis]

Putting a stethoscope to the wall and listen is doing research, speculating what may have emitted those sounds, and making up a conclusive explanation based on no further evidence, is not.

I do not do that. I am in the exploratory phase.

I don't believe in ghosts, but I don't rule them out. I'm just waiting for evidence in one direction or another.

I do stick to things that have been proven, and I embrace new theories that are based on solid fact. If I assume a thing is a certain way, I'm glad when someone proves me wrong.

I can't argue your philosophy except when it comes to things spiritual, there is not much in the way of fact to go on. I would not expect you to commit as neither have I.