Do commandments and threats negate free will?

[MrHeinz]

Not being an atheist, I cannot speak for them but most I speak to de not deny God. They just do not accept what their logic and reason tells them is not a proven fact.

Not true. That is the excuse atheist apologists invented so they don't really have to explain what they believe. Those who don't believe in God spend alot of time and energy coming up with excuses and attacking those who do believe. Sad when people go thru all that trying to convince themselves of something.

 

[MrHeinz]

Free will is being able to make choices. I don't think desires have alot to do with it. It is about choice. If a person refuses to choose they have still made a choice, not to choose. Denying this fact is just a way to try and not take any responsibility for anything.

That is the truth.

 

[savvy]

That is pretty much it. It is amazing the elaborate BS people dream up to fool themselves.

I agree.

 

[Greatest I am]

Hmmm...we have all kinds of laws that govern our exertion or expression of free will, or self will. I want to fly or levitate, but laws of physics say I can't...unless I create or utilize another way to manipulate, maneuver, or utilize within the laws, like airplanes or helium balloons. Those things took time to be created by humans.
I suppose I see free will in the sense of the spirit or soul much like this...there are laws that prevent or confine...unless we somehow transcend or maneuver within them. They are there in place (possibly the ones in debate are outmoded for some), and can't be broken with our present understanding. Perhaps what we percieve as miracles may be coincidences, transcendent accidents, some sort of synchronicity, or intentional forces of coalescing will with something "higher" (for lack of better language)...and that seem to temporarily breech the distance between us and higher places.
Whether we will be spared each others verbage onslaught of what is wrong and right in God's eye...or shed outmoded self imposed/group imposed tapes in the near or distant future really depends on if we can get an idea of what it is like to be free of this fear ridden type of existence. If I can keep a sense of this as a shared dilemna, I am less judgemental of how it poisons us toward each other. One of my closest friends (now passed) used to say that the best use of the will is inward on oneself. And if you don't do something with someone (their total permission and willingness), you do it to them. How true these ring to me, and how short I fall of them even with the purest of intentions.

I take this as a yes with qualifiers.

To your last. We are all doing the best we can with what we have and yes, sometimes our good intentions backfire.
Even so, we should continue trying.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

But do we really go against our desires? It seems to me what really happens is we have conflicting desires and the strongest desire wins. For example, I have the desire to be rich and stealing might accomplish that. But I have an even stronger desire to live in a society where property rights are respected and everyone is treated fairly. So I support laws against stealing and don't steal myself.

I think free will is the ability to choose our desires. And I'm not sure we actually have that. What most of us do have is freedom to some degree, i.e. the ability to act on our desires.

A logical and fairly exact view.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Not true. That is the excuse atheist apologists invented so they don't really have to explain what they believe. Those who don't believe in God spend alot of time and energy coming up with excuses and attacking those who do believe. Sad when people go thru all that trying to convince themselves of something.

FMPOV, I see believers doing exactly the same thing.

Try looking at both sides and not just the one.

Both sides are trying to convert the other.

Atheists tend to use logic and reason while believers will use faith.

Regards
DL

 

[MsPoppy]

Free will is being able to make choices. I don't think desires have alot to do with it. It is about choice. If a person refuses to choose they have still made a choice, not to choose. Denying this fact is just a way to try and not take any responsibility for anything.

Denying desire and agenda has anything to do with decisions is not taking responsibility for motive behind decision. Especially self motive. We aren't machines.

 

[kanojoe]

FMPOV, I see believers doing exactly the same thing.

Try looking at both sides and not just the one.

Both sides are trying to convert the other.

Atheists tend to use logic and reason while believers will use faith.

Regards
DL

Atheists say they use reason and logic when it is really lies mostly.

 

[savvy]

Atheists say they use reason and logic when it is really lies mostly.

:thumbup You got it. Lies parading as logic and reason.

 

[savvy]

We aren't machines.

The first part of your post is jibberish. But I agree on this. We aren't machines that follow some command outside ourselves. We have the ability to make choices.

 

[Alien Allen]

where is the logic in believing in something that can not be proven? Belief in a God is purely done on faith. Unless somebody has it on tape.

what lies do atheists tell?

inquiring minds want to know

 

[MrHeinz]

Atheists say they use reason and logic when it is really lies mostly.

Yes true. I think evidence of ID is all we will be able to detect with our limited knowledge. This and evidence the universe had a beginning is enough proof.

 

[Alien Allen]

what evidence is there of intelligent design?

please provide some details that are verifiable

 

[BornReady]

Belief in a God is purely done on faith.

True. All thinking theists realize that. I've had believers tell me the reason God doesn't prove his existence is because he wants us to believe in him by faith. Their argument is valid. Although I fail to see the virtue in believing by faith.

 

[MsPoppy]

The first part of your post is jibberish. But I agree on this. We aren't machines that follow some command outside ourselves. We have the ability to make choices.

Because you don't get it doesn't make it gibberish.
My desire to do something, like go back to school, had to be followed by a lot of decisions...do I work and go to school/ or Do I live on grants and go to school/or do I take out loans and ...?....
Do I take a two year certificate that pretty much insures a job in something I'm not quite in love with but gives security and benefits?/ or do I take a risk and go for what I would love to do, and spend another two years working and going to school with the hopes a degree will help me procure or forge a livelihood?...
On the first set of decisions, my desire is to stay solvent...so the loan is out. I did work and go to school for the first year. The second year I wanted to do more classes (there's that dreaded desire), so I did rely on some grant money and worked half time.
On the second set of decisions, I opted to follow more precisely my desire and forego the logic everyone wanted to cram down my throat...I went for the risk. My life is so awesome right now... doors are opening, I'm excited, enthusiastic, creative in my learning and basically designing my own internship. A huge part of the motive behind making this decision was that I wanted to live my own life. Not someone elses.

 

[savvy]

Yes true. I think evidence of ID is all we will be able to detect with our limited knowledge. This and evidence the universe had a beginning is enough proof.

There will never be enough evidence for some people. Although I don't see how science can prove that God exists given that all we know of science comes from only a part of the universe we live in. What we know doesn't even cover our own universe so how is science to prove anything at this point. I think it is foolish to think science will ever prove anything beyond our existence.

 

[savvy]

Because you don't get it doesn't make it gibberish.
My desire to do something, like go back to school, had to be followed by a lot of decisions...do I work and go to school/ or Do I live on grants and go to school/or do I take out loans and ...?....
Do I take a two year certificate that pretty much insures a job in something I'm not quite in love with but gives security and benefits?/ or do I take a risk and go for what I would love to do, and spend another two years working and going to school with the hopes a degree will help me procure or forge a livelihood?...
On the first set of decisions, my desire is to stay solvent...so the loan is out. I did work and go to school for the first year. The second year I wanted to do more classes (there's that dreaded desire), so I did rely on some grant money and worked half time.
On the second set of decisions, I opted to follow more precisely my desire and forego the logic everyone wanted to cram down my throat...I went for the risk. My life is so awesome right now... doors are opening, I'm excited, enthusiastic, creative in my learning and basically designing my own internship. A huge part of the motive behind making this decision was that I wanted to live my own life. Not someone elses.

Sorry but it was jibberish much like this post. You made some decisions and that is it. Why complicate it so with discussion of desire and what not. It isn't rocket science.

 

[Accountable]

Do commands and threats negate your idea of what free will is?

Nah. At most, They inform free will. Knowing the consequences never prevents us from behaving however we wish. It just gives us more to consider when making the decision whether or not to act.

 

[MsPoppy]

Sorry but it was jibberish much like this post. You made some decisions and that is it. Why complicate it so with discussion of desire and what not. It isn't rocket science.

Actually, I don't "just make decisions", as you put it. Thanks for letting me know you are intent on being contrary. I'll just ignore you from here on out. You can do the same. Going in circles with unreasonable people is not my schtick.

 

[clancy]

Sorry but it was jibberish much like this post. You made some decisions and that is it. Why complicate it so with discussion of desire and what not. It isn't rocket science.

You are right it isn't that complicated. Some people like to complicate things to hide their intentions. In this case people want to throw in a bunch of "influences" and pretend they don't decide anything. That way they aren't responsible for their actions.