Do Christians value their moral sense?

[Greatest I am]

I'm not going to get in an argument with you GIM. You pose very thought provoking ideas in your threads, most of which are aimed right at the core of Christianity. When anyone posts a reply that disagrees with your OP, your only response is negativity. More often than not, the same replies - over and over again.

My only purpose in replying to your posts is so people can see both sides.

And I do appreciate the help in converting softer believers to the sanity of secularism.
I just hope that they do not lose their spiritual nature if it is active.
Hope that there is a God lead me to him. Faith leds only to idol worship.

You cannot find God in a book.

Regards
DL

 

[Tuffdisc]

And I do appreciate the help in converting softer believers to the sanity of secularism.
I just hope that they do not lose their spiritual nature if it is active.
Hope that there is a God lead me to him. Faith leds only to idol worship.

You cannot find God in a book.

Regards
DL

Sanity of secularism? Wow, love to see that in Hitler, not forgetting about Stalin etc...

 

[Panacea]

Sanity of secularism? Wow, love to see that in Hitler, not forgetting about Stalin etc...

Please continue...I have a feeling the "etc." is one person.

 

[Tuffdisc]

Please continue...I have a feeling the "etc." is one person.

etc means a lot more people, or have you forgotten something?

 

[Panacea]

etc means a lot more people, or have you forgotten something?

I'm asking you to please list at least some of the "a lot more" people involved in secular insanity.

 

[Tim]

Sanity of secularism? Wow, love to see that in Hitler, not forgetting about Stalin etc...

So you believe that there isn't sanity in secularism because of the likes of Hitler and Stalin?

Does that mean there isn't any sanity in religion because of the religious leaders of the past and present that have ordered the deaths of millions? Crusades? The early Popes? Islamic leaders? How about God himself for flooding the earth killing every man woman and child except Noah and his family. The world was wicked and needed to be destroyed you say... were the newborns wicked as well? What about the innocent children? Animals wicked?
This is sane?

 

[Diggin Deep]

I'll pose a question to you...

You and many others do not believe in "The Bible God", nor do you see any evidence of design in the universe. You do not feel that if there was only "The Bible God" that he has done a very good job at bringing his will to pass. You argue to the point of coming across as you could do a much better job, or have a better idea of how things should be.

To say that, you must have some idea of what the universe would look like if it had a designer. You must also have some idea of how that creator should tend to it's creation.

What do you think the world should look like if there was a designer?

What do you feel would be the best way for a creator to tend to it's creation?

Should the creator even desire a relationship with it's creation? If so, to what lengths do you think a creator should go to have that relationship with it's creation?

 

[Tuffdisc]

So you believe that there isn't sanity in secularism because of the likes of Hitler and Stalin?

Does that mean there isn't any sanity in religion because of the religious leaders of the past and present that have ordered the deaths of millions? Crusades? The early Popes? Islamic leaders? How about God himself for flooding the earth killing every man woman and child except Noah and his family. The world was wicked and needed to be destroyed you say... were the newborns wicked as well? What about the innocent children? Animals wicked?
This is sane?

You do love contradicting yourself, you say that you shouldn't take the Bible literally

 

[Greatest I am]

I'll pose a question to you...

You and many others do not believe in "The Bible God", nor do you see any evidence of design in the universe. You do not feel that if there was only "The Bible God" that he has done a very good job at bringing his will to pass. You argue to the point of coming across as you could do a much better job, or have a better idea of how things should be.

There does look like their is design to the universe. Natures inadvertent design, not a Gods.

To say that, you must have some idea of what the universe would look like if it had a designer. You must also have some idea of how that creator should tend to it's creation.

What do you think the world should look like if there was a designer?

Exactly what we have. The best of all possible worlds.

What do you feel would be the best way for a creator to tend to it's creation, if in fact; the creator desired a personal relationship with it's creation.

Should the creator even desire a relationship with it's creation? If so, to what lengths do you think a creator should go to have that relationship with it's creation?

You might note that all others you have a personal relationship with are not absentee.
If God wants a personal relationship then he would not be absentee.

Regards
DL

 

[Tim]

You do love contradicting yourself, you say that you shouldn't take the Bible literally

Then remove the part of my post that refers to the flood.

What about the millions of innocent people slaughtered under different Popes? Does that mean there is no sanity in religion either?

 

[Diggin Deep]

You might note that all others you have a personal relationship with are not absentee.
If God wants a personal relationship then he would not be absentee.

Regards
DL

I didn't think you would come up with a logical response.

The God that I serve is not absentee. But that is one of those things that is based upon my faith - and that is something that you, nor I can argue about. You can criticize me for having faith in the god that I do, but you can't proove that I'm wrong by saying He isn't absentee.

If Jesus was here in the flesh and claimed that He was your God...would it really make a difference to you? Would it really change your mind? He did once before and people still laughed at Him, criticized Him, failed to believe in Him and ultimately crucified Him.

 

[Greatest I am]

I didn't think you would come up with a logical response.

Oh ye of little faith. LOL.

The God that I serve is not absentee. But that is one of those things that is based upon my faith - and that is something that you, nor I can argue about. You can criticize me for having faith in the god that I do, but you can't proove that I'm wrong by saying He isn't absentee.

I can show that he has no morals though.

Otherwise, you are absolutely right. I cannot prove non-existence of anything.
It is impossible for me to show that what does not exist does not exist.
Only tour positive claim of God existing can be proven yet in 3000 years, no believer has ever come up to prove the claim that is provable if the statement is true.

If Jesus was here in the flesh and claimed that He was your God...would it really make a difference to you? Would it really change your mind? He did once before and people still laughed at Him, criticized Him, failed to believe in Him and ultimately crucified Him.

You seem to forget that people believed in him only because of miracles.
If God was in front of me and did a few of these, then I would likely believe.
Fantastic claim need fantastic evidence and he would have to produce.

Regards
DL

 

[FreightTrain]

And there are plenty of morals and lessons to be learned in an average Star Trek episode through thought provoking writing, Yet I know it is mere fantasy and not to be taken literally. So where is the difference?

I can't even begin to go into detail about the differences between a low-budget sci-fi series and the Bible. It would take pages and pages.

 

[BornReady]

The God that I serve is not absentee.

By absentee he means you've never seen or talked with him. You assume he is present because you feel him. But those feeling are internal. There is no way to know if they come from something external.

 

[DavidW]

By absentee he means you've never seen or talked with him. You assume he is present because you feel him. But those feeling are internal. There is no way to know if they come from something external.

Speak for yourself

 

[Greatest I am]

Speak for yourself

Typical useless remark with 0 details and just a quick jab that missed.
The usual religionist method of debate.

Have you had an apotheosis then?

Regards
DL

 

[Diggin Deep]

If a potter makes a pot that leaks, it is the pots fault.
How droll.

Regards
DL

So when does a person become responsible for their own actions? When do we become accountable. I guess for every imperfection that I have and every wrong thing that I have done in my life - I should blame someone else, I should blame my parents, I should blame God? Heaven forbid I take any ownership for those things.

Should we blame every negative thing that we go through in our life on my past, past experiences, and our family? When do we let it go, move on with our lives and quit passing the buck? You can point fingers all day, but at the end of the day - it's your own reflection staring back at you in the mirror.

If we say that we are who we are now is a result of our past actions and things that happened to us in the past, then it is also true that whatever we choose to be in the future can be produced by our current actions.

Disease, famine, natural disasters, murder and immorality are all results of "The Fall". Mankind caused these things, not God. Deciding not to take responsibility for those actions doesn't change the fact that it is "our" fault. You could say, "It's God's fault for placing a tree in Eden and saying not to eat from it. And how dare we exercise our free will?" Well then, take responsibility for disobeying. If the law is not to drive drunk and not to speed, but I have too many to drink and then speed down the road and cause an accident. Is it the person who made the law's fault or mine? Should I pass blame to those who made alcohol, made a car that would go over the speed limit, made the law that I shouldn't drink and drive, and made the law that I shouldn't speed? Should I blame the other person for being on the road who I crashed into and killed? - or is the fault mine to own?

Our behavior is a function of our decisions, not our conditions. Responsibility is the ability to choose your own response. We should not blame circumsatances, conditions, or conditioning for our behavior. Our behavior is a product of our own conscious choice, based on values, rather than a product of our conditions, based on feeling.

 

[Panacea]

Disease, famine, natural disasters, murder and immorality are all results of "The Fall". Mankind caused these things, not God.

This is the place I get tripped up every time. I often hear that the bible god is perfect, and humans are created in his image. But then I hear we are not perfect like god, and we are predominantly bad little shits that ruined the world and caused the fall. (I'm talking purely from a theoretical standpoint in relation to the bible, because it is plainly obvious we are not always "good").

That being assumed true for the purpose of discussion, technically everything is in god's wheelhouse, so to speak, and therefore he did create disease, famine, and natural disasters, because he created us to be bad little shits (assumedly by giving us free will) and decided these things are our punishment (by creating the laws of nature).

There seems to be an error in saying the bible god is all powerful and perfect and decides our fates and then saying that humans are responsible for our own misgivings. The latter of which I agree with.

Now clearly, as a person who does not believe in a god, I feel human actions are human responsibilities, so I don't really disagree at all with what you've said. It just seems that adding the things people say about the bible god into the fold changes the possibility that human behaviors are solely based off human decisions. The all powerful god would have put everything into motion by creating us and deciding the laws of nature, so technically it would all be on him for making it that way.

 

[Diggin Deep]

In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation.

Romans 8:19-21 tells us, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

The fall of humanity into sin had effects on everything, including the world we inhabit. Everything in creation is subject to “frustration” and “decay.” Sin is the ultimate cause of natural disasters just as it is the cause of death, disease, and suffering.

We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur. Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of thousands of people? For one thing, such events shake our confidence in this life and force us to think about eternity. Churches are usually filled after disasters as people realize how tenuous their lives really are and how life can be taken away in an instant. What we do know is this: God is good! Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people who are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray, and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies (Romans 8:28).

Did God create everything that is tragedy in the world? - I don't know. I can't explain why such tragedies happen. Why does He allow them to happen? All I can do is understand, that they are ultimately the result of our actions. I believe that the God I serve can and does use these tragedies to bring about great good. And in my opinion, at the end of the day, the good outweighs the bad.

 

[Panacea]

In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation.

This is the example again
If god is in control of what is created and what is allowed on earth, (even allowing free will and absolving responsibility for the creations thereafter) that technically means god is still responsible for what happens because he set in motion what was possible to happen and still holds control now, as only deists really believe god doesn't intervene.

Really, GIA's point about the pot is so appropriate in that sense, and it's meant (I would assume) to show the absurdity of the claim an all powerful god who created us prone to error (which is fine, it would have been his choice, right?) is somehow not responsible for the error. The god would be responsible for everything it made.

I don't mean to imply the god in this example is good or bad, wrong or right...that's not the aim of my attempt to work this out logically. I also don't mean to imply that humans who believe in god should absolve themselves of responsibility...it just isn't practical. We have to be responsible.

I just find it interesting mostly. I like thinking about these things.