Do Christians value their moral sense?

[Panacea]

I appreciate the thoughtful input. Since my frame of reference is so different, I just wondered how it was worked out, and I'm sure quite a few Christians would agree with that assessment for their own reference.

 

[Greatest I am]

I don't believe that Christians got the story wrong at all. I believe that some things are looked at too literally in the Bible, but I don't think this is the case for the fall. The "fall of mankind" represents creation disobeying God and turning their backs to Him. They had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, the fellowship was broken. They became aware of their sin and were ashamed before Him. They hid from Him and mankind has been hiding from God ever since.



There is nothing elevating about what I wrote above. We know what happened to the first person who tried to elevate himself to the level of God. That doesn't sound very elevating to me. At least we have been given a second chance.



Yes I value my moral sense, but I have not created it. We would not have a moral sense if it was not given to us by God. We are born with an understanding, not only that there is good and evil, but that there is injustice in the world and that the world should somehow be different. This comes out of some understanding that is putting us in context to our relationship with God. In my opinion, The Bible is very clear about the fall of humanity and what it has done regarding our relationship with God.

Humans have lost sight of the purpose for which they were created. Man’s chief end and highest purpose in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Love to God is the core of all morality and goodness. The opposite is the choice of self as supreme. Selfishness is the essence of the Fall, and what follows are all other crimes against God. In all ways sin is a turning in upon oneself, which is confirmed in how we live our lives. We call attention to ourselves and to our good qualities and accomplishments. We minimize our shortcomings. We seek special favors and opportunities in life, wanting an extra edge that no one else has. We display vigilance to our own wants and needs, while we ignore those of others. In short, we place ourselves upon the throne of our lives, seizing the role that belongs to God.

The Fall produced in humans a state of depravity. Paul spoke of those “whose consciences are seared” (1 Timothy 4:2) and those whose minds are spiritually darkened as a result of rejecting the truth (Romans 1:21). In this state of depravity, man is utterly incapable of doing or choosing that which is acceptable to God, apart from divine grace. “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so” (Romans 8:7).

What I find that is elevating about this situation is this...

What was lost at the Fall is reclaimed at the Cross!

I see.
So the Bible is wrong then when it tells us to be as perfect as God?
You think man should not have reached out for a moral sense yet you value yours. Catch 22.

As for God giving us good laws and morals, pick any issue and you will note that secular law has done better.

As to Jesus. I think it is immoral for you to try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I am still amazed when Christians take much of the Bible, literally. What's wrong with these people???

The one who could dither that out, could rule the world.
It would not be moral though to take advantage of the delusional.

Regards
DL

 

[Diggin Deep]

I read it somewhere and it made logical sense.

If I wrote a book of fiction that people read literally, after starting it with a talking snake, I would certainly laugh at any that started to believe that snakes could actually talk.

Regards
DL

Even if everything in The Bible is meant to be completely literal or not - assuming that God couldn't create a talking snake, a unicorn, or the world in 7 - 24 hr days is ridiculous. If God is who He said was, then He could have made the world out of chocolate pudding if He so desired - He's God. Whether a snake talked or not, whether the reference of a unicorn was actually a type of rhino, or if the world was actually created in my knowledge of time or over the course of many years...I don't care. It isn't central to my faith one way or the other.

 

[Greatest I am]

God created us, but man chose to disobey him so he is not at fault for that

If a potter makes a pot that leaks, it is the pots fault.
How droll.

Regards
DL

 

[Panacea]

If a potter makes a pot that leaks, it is the pots fault.
How droll.

Regards
DL

That is a good point.

 

[Diggin Deep]

I see.
So the Bible is wrong then when it tells us to be as perfect as God?

Regards
DL

No the Bible isn't wrong when it tells us to be as perfect as Jesus. What you are failing to see is that the only way that we can be as perfect is through Jesus and with his help. You can aspire to be as perfect as what your knowledge of Him is or your image of Him on your own - good luck with that.

In order to be perfect, we must have something that is an example of perfection. Our example is Jesus. And without knowing Him and having a personal relationship with Him, our aspirations will always fall short - 2nd at best.

 

[Greatest I am]

Simple--He gave us free will.

And the moment A & E exercised it, boom.

Here is your free will but don't dare use it.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

How old are you? Are you still in childhood?

I see below that the poster had the good taste to ignore your ignorance in ignoring a good question.

You must be Christian. When they cannot answer properly or intelligently they always go for a personal attack.

Jesus said to bring the children to him yet you think the poster child minded and reject correcting her.

Quite the mind YOU have pal.

Regards
DL

 

[Diggin Deep]

You must be Christian. When they cannot answer properly or intelligently they always go for a personal attack.

Regards
DL

Seriously GIM??? *face palm* :willy_nilly:

 

[Tuffdisc]

I see below that the poster had the good taste to ignore your ignorance in ignoring a good question.

You must be Christian. When they cannot answer properly or intelligently they always go for a personal attack.

Jesus said to bring the children to him yet you think the poster child minded and reject correcting her.

Quite the mind YOU have pal.

Regards
DL

Wow, are you a Christian then? Because you have just done what you purport Christians do :24:

 

[Greatest I am]

The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

When did your omnipotent God develop this great need?

Regards
DL

 

[Diggin Deep]

I really don't know why you bother posting youtube videos in response to me...you know I can't view them. *sigh*

 

[Greatest I am]

I appreciate the thoughtful input. Since my frame of reference is so different, I just wondered how it was worked out, and I'm sure quite a few Christians would agree with that assessment for their own reference.

Only if they have not bought into literalism and belief in fantasy, miracles and magic.

Statistics on this continent are dismal but moving to a better position over time.
Thank God, so to speak, that our younger generation is not as gullible as the older one.

I gave you a small thumbs up above in case you missed it.

Keeping things simple sure screws up those who cannot answer simple questions.

Regards
DL

 

[Tuffdisc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

When did your omnipotent God develop this great need?

Regards
DL

I think you should stop watching Star Trek, you are taking it far too seriously and literally, excuse the pun :24:

 

[Greatest I am]

No the Bible isn't wrong when it tells us to be as perfect as Jesus. What you are failing to see is that the only way that we can be as perfect is through Jesus and with his help. You can aspire to be as perfect as what your knowledge of Him is or your image of Him on your own - good luck with that.

In order to be perfect, we must have something that is an example of perfection. Our example is Jesus. And without knowing Him and having a personal relationship with Him, our aspirations will always fall short - 2nd at best.

Who would want a relationship with a God who believes it is better to have his son murdered to forgive sins when he can just forgive them outright. That is insane.

Would you do such a thing or would you, if a sacrifice was required, do the right thing and step up yourself?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I really don't know why you bother posting youtube videos in response to me...you know I can't view them. *sigh*

Just to give you an excuse to ignore the questioned posed since the title of the vid says it all.

Regards
DL

 

[Tim]

There's plenty to take to heart in the Bible. There's alot of fantastic, thought-provoking writing. Those who deny that are really closed-minded and/or small-minded.

And there are plenty of morals and lessons to be learned in an average Star Trek episode through thought provoking writing, Yet I know it is mere fantasy and not to be taken literally. So where is the difference?

 

[Tuffdisc]

Who would want a relationship with a God who believes it is better to have his son murdered to forgive sins when he can just forgive them outright. That is insane.

Would you do such a thing or would you, if a sacrifice was required, do the right thing and step up yourself?

Regards
DL

Agreed it is insane, but that is what you call a sacrifice to prove that God loves us, and that Jesus was a man of peace and love, who even at his arrest never even raised a finger to those who arrested him

 

[Diggin Deep]

I'm not going to get in an argument with you GIM. You pose very thought provoking ideas in your threads, most of which are aimed right at the core of Christianity. When anyone posts a reply that disagrees with your OP, your only response is negativity. More often than not, the same replies - over and over again.

My only purpose in replying to your posts is so people can see both sides.