Do Christians value their moral sense?

[Greatest I am]

Do Christians value their moral sense?

Was Eden, the fall or the elevation of mankind?

A moral sense is what is developed by our study of morals and ethics.
In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.

This gain is clearly spoken of by God when he stated that A & E had become as God’s, knowing good and evil. The fact that he threw a sissy fit when we did elevate ourselves is why Christians call Eden the fall of man.

I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
Yet strangely, most Christians say that they would do exactly as Eve did and that they would not stop her. They value it yet call it a fall.

The Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures as Eden being our elevation. Not our fall. They were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

Did Christianity get the story wrong?
Was Eden our elevation and not our fall?
Do you value your moral sense or would you stop Eve if you could?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0kdxgJB9is

http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php

Regards
DL

 

[BornReady]

They were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

That's an interesting view. How do you know they were surprised?

 

[The Doc]

No logic can be assigned to understand God, stated in the bible. Therefore we will never know why, and why humans think we were there is well...useless to say the least...

 

[Diggin Deep]

Did Christianity get the story wrong?

I don't believe that Christians got the story wrong at all. I believe that some things are looked at too literally in the Bible, but I don't think this is the case for the fall. The "fall of mankind" represents creation disobeying God and turning their backs to Him. They had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, the fellowship was broken. They became aware of their sin and were ashamed before Him. They hid from Him and mankind has been hiding from God ever since.

Was Eden our elevation and not our fall?

There is nothing elevating about what I wrote above. We know what happened to the first person who tried to elevate himself to the level of God. That doesn't sound very elevating to me. At least we have been given a second chance.

Do you value your moral sense or would you stop Eve if you could?

Yes I value my moral sense, but I have not created it. We would not have a moral sense if it was not given to us by God. We are born with an understanding, not only that there is good and evil, but that there is injustice in the world and that the world should somehow be different. This comes out of some understanding that is putting us in context to our relationship with God. In my opinion, The Bible is very clear about the fall of humanity and what it has done regarding our relationship with God.

Humans have lost sight of the purpose for which they were created. Man’s chief end and highest purpose in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Love to God is the core of all morality and goodness. The opposite is the choice of self as supreme. Selfishness is the essence of the Fall, and what follows are all other crimes against God. In all ways sin is a turning in upon oneself, which is confirmed in how we live our lives. We call attention to ourselves and to our good qualities and accomplishments. We minimize our shortcomings. We seek special favors and opportunities in life, wanting an extra edge that no one else has. We display vigilance to our own wants and needs, while we ignore those of others. In short, we place ourselves upon the throne of our lives, seizing the role that belongs to God.

The Fall produced in humans a state of depravity. Paul spoke of those “whose consciences are seared” (1 Timothy 4:2) and those whose minds are spiritually darkened as a result of rejecting the truth (Romans 1:21). In this state of depravity, man is utterly incapable of doing or choosing that which is acceptable to God, apart from divine grace. “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so” (Romans 8:7).

What I find that is elevating about this situation is this...

What was lost at the Fall is reclaimed at the Cross!

 

[Panacea]

Can I just ask a possibly dumb question, as sparked by DD's reply?

The "fall of mankind" represents creation disobeying God and turning their backs to Him.

Why, if the assumption god is perfect is true, would god create something that disobeys him, sins, doesn't know him (whether ateist or Muslim), etc? Mostly, what do you, as a believer think of that?

 

[FreightTrain]

I am still amazed when Christians take much of the Bible, literally. What's wrong with these people???

 

[Tim]

I'm amazed when anyone takes anything in the bible literally...

 

[FreightTrain]

There's plenty to take to heart in the Bible. There's alot of fantastic, thought-provoking writing. Those who deny that are really closed-minded and/or small-minded.

 

[Tuffdisc]

Can I just ask a possibly dumb question, as sparked by DD's reply?


Why, if the assumption god is perfect is true, would god create something that disobeys him, sins, doesn't know him (whether ateist or Muslim), etc? Mostly, what do you, as a believer think of that?

God created us, but man chose to disobey him so he is not at fault for that

 

[Panacea]

God created us, but man chose to disobey him so he is not at fault for that

I wonder why he wasn't able or didn't want to create humans who don't disobey. Is he a masochist?
I'm not asking these questions to be trap anyone into saying they don't know, to be a dick, but I just wonder...from a logical standpoint, how a person of faith would work all of this out in their head.

 

[FreightTrain]

Simple--He gave us free will.

 

[Panacea]

I'm amazed when anyone takes anything in the bible literally...

That's what I find incredible (read: sad) about all of this. Since we can all interpret story writing differently, how did it ever come to pass that humans were expected to follow these types of texts in a specific way? Oy. :surrender

 

[Panacea]

Simple--He gave us free will.

Why? 10 characters

 

[FreightTrain]

I am not God. How can I answer that? In fact, that's kinda the point of spirituality--to ask "why?" questions for yourself and discover them within.

 

[Panacea]

I am not God. How can I answer that?

The same way you would know he exists and know he gave us free will, I guess.

 

[FreightTrain]

The same way you would know he exists and know he gave us free will, I guess.

How old are you? Are you still in childhood?

 

[Tuffdisc]

I wonder why he wasn't able or didn't want to create humans who don't disobey. Is he a masochist?
I'm not asking these questions to be trap anyone into saying they don't know, to be a dick, but I just wonder...from a logical standpoint, how a person of faith would work all of this out in their head.

Simple--He gave us free will.

^^ This. Would a person be true if you were too force someone 'to be good'? Because they would have fear of you, but when you are not looking, would they misbehave? Probably, hence not being themselves

 

[Panacea]

^^ This. Would a person be true if you were too force someone 'to be good'? Because they would have fear of you, but when you are not looking, would they misbehave? Probably, hence not being themselves

Sure. I would just imagine a perfect god could and would create humans who were not prone to misbehaving at all, and were also perfect. That's really why I asked.

 

[Diggin Deep]

Can I just ask a possibly dumb question, as sparked by DD's reply?

Why, if the assumption god is perfect is true, would god create something that disobeys him, sins, doesn't know him (whether ateist or Muslim), etc? Mostly, what do you, as a believer think of that?

It's not a dumb question. This question is a little trickier because we are asking a “why” question to which the Bible does not usually provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited understanding if we examine a little deeper. So, if God knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and that Adam and Eve would sin, yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense...right?

Let's look at it as: Paradise, Paradise Lost, and a Paradise Regained

So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it does not make sense. If the narrative moves from paradise, to paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost part?

The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God.

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved. None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

If God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The best answer I've found for this is from Westminster Confession of Faith III:

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)

What I think this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

 

[Greatest I am]

That's an interesting view. How do you know they were surprised?

I read it somewhere and it made logical sense.

If I wrote a book of fiction that people read literally, after starting it with a talking snake, I would certainly laugh at any that started to believe that snakes could actually talk.

Regards
DL