If I'm remembering correctly, though, there are scientists out there that argue there've big bang theory isn't actually true. That the universe has always existed in some form or another. I don't know if the videos address this as imnot home, but I'll watch then later. And I'll have to find something to back up what I'm saying. I just need a rational explanation. As far as people that believe 100% fact that God exists are just as irrational sounding asthose who say he 100% for sure DOESN'T exist. I think there's a middle ground to everyones beliefs, and that's probably closer to the truth than anything else. I sit somewhere in that middle ground there.
Divine Hiddenness
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If I'm remembering correctly, though, there are scientists out there that argue there've big bang theory isn't actually true. That the universe has always existed in some form or another. I don't know if the videos address this as imnot home, but I'll watch then later. And I'll have to find something to back up what I'm saying. I just need a rational explanation. As far as people that believe 100% fact that God exists are just as irrational sounding asthose who say he 100% for sure DOESN'T exist. I think there's a middle ground to everyones beliefs, and that's probably closer to the truth than anything else. I sit somewhere in that middle ground there.
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I'm sorry doll but that sounds like a cop out to me. You can't sort of believe in God, you either do or don't.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE POINT!!!...lol
Springsteen
Number 2, Rafael!
I give in, you clearly were unable to demonstrate a reasonable level of understanding when I tried to tell you that birth isn't a miracle, it's a normal happening.
I didn't say I didn't believe, Sadie. I said that there's no facts to prove he does. Just as there are no facts to prove he doesn't. I haver copped out on anything. But I am a rational person capable of believing that the truth lies somewhere between the bible and evolution, or whatever else people who don't believe in God think is the case.
TommyTooter
Banned
no. that' not how it works. i'm not going to do your reading for you. i have a bachelor of science in marine biology and enough OJT for a PhD in biochemistry. i read between 500 and 1000 pages just about every day.
you make a claim, back it up with documents. the whole comeback of go read something that you are handing to me and sadie is rude, condescending and all full of logical holes that are euphemistically called 'shit'.
Has anyone stopped to consider that if we were from another culture or from another time, we would be having the exact same argument, except we wouldn't be talking about God, we would be talking about whatever deity is from that place...
It's beyond my full grasp too. However I read if you add all the negative energy and positive energy in our universe then it comes out very close to zero. So I don't think there's any problem there. Anyway, I think it's a mistake to assume the physical laws of our universe apply outside it. There may be multiple universes and ours may have been spawned from another universe that has different physical laws.
Having said that, I see your point retro. It's hard for me to imagine something always existing. But it's also hard to imagine something coming from nothing. So it's quite a dilemma. That may be a question we can never answer. It's easier for me to believe that something simple like membranes have always existed or came from nothing rather than something intelligent like God.
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As the years after the big bang was first theorised, all of the studies, testing, observation has made it the scientific consensus on how the universe started. I doubt any physicist these days disagrees with the event.
I couldn't possibly say either way about the existence of God. And neither can anyone. I do know, however, that the religious doctrines are false.
The big bang doesn't refute the notion of creator, it just alters what He might be.
It is exactly how it works. I've read, now it's your turn. The sources are everywhere, heck, you can even go onto wikipedia and find this stuff out.
So you have a bachelor in science, then you know that's EXACTLY how it works, and you should know the numbers I told you anyway, this is basic, basic stuff. Unless of course you don't have a bachelor in science...
Age of the Earth:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html
eta: Age of the Universe:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8022917.stm
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html
Now go search for rest, it's all out there.
And actually no, I haven't been rude, I haven't insulted anyone, there are no logical holes (and if there are please be intellectually honest about it and tell me where rather than just hurling unfounded insults because you can't digest what's being told to you) and I certainly have not been rude.
You, however, as usual, are throwing unfounded and totally unnecessary accusations out there.
As always, your posts are pointless, Tommy. If you can't engage in a debate with civility and decency and intelligence, then please don't bother.
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For those that are interested, this video is pretty damn amazing and talks about multiple universes, the laws of ours, how it was formed, and where God might be... Please, everyone who has been in this cool debate, give 12 minutes of your time to see the beauty in nature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdRCPjXn1DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdRCPjXn1DY
The physical laws of our universe are specific to our universe only. This has been the biggest problem figuring out what caused the big bang. As the laws, time, space etc were created at the big bang, when scientists look back, as they reach the singularity, the moment of the big bang, all the mathematics and physics break down.
Watch the video I posted above, it talks about the multiverse.
Minor Axis
Well-Known Member
Sure there is a huge difference. All I'm saying is that humans only learn through adversity. I'm sure the cynics will say yeah, you learn to kill or be killed, but the idea is that man's struggle is upward, not downward. If we lived in a controlled comfortable environment, I don't think we'd learn much.
I'd like to get back to the original premise of this thread, "Divine Hiddenness". Despite those who say "oh, I talk to God all the time" I see that as basically a one way conversation. If you are getting anything from God, unless you hear words in your head, regardless of how sure you are, God's communication consists of just feelings (or even words) which could be ascribed to a number of things, including mental illness.
My intent is not to belittle your feelings, just suggest that individuals for lack of anything concrete, have to make assumptions regarding these feelings.Here are some possibilities why the divine creator remains hidden:
1) It is not important to get involved directly in our lives, or it is unaware of us on a personal level, therefore we need not worry about pleasing or pandering to God.
2) It's intelligent, we are intelligent. If it's method of interaction is in a behind the scenes manner, and it respects us as its intelligent "children", it would not expect us to acknowledge something that is hidden or that we can only imagine based on "good feelings".
3) It does not exist or it's existence is so alien to us that for all practical interactive purposes from a personal relationship aspect, it does not exist.
Based on the possibilities I described, I find it highly unlikely that the creator would send down a representative to try to explain it to us. I'd be happy to hear other possibilities.
And here I lose my credibility with Atheists as I still like the idea of spirituality. Note, I'm not saying I "believe". My feelings are not that strong, but I really like the idea of a community of spirits, enfused with an existence and properties we don't understand, possibly monitoring our progress on some level. You don't need to try to pick apart these feelings as not logical. I understand. If I was logical in this regard, I would acknowledge that when we die, it is over, but my weakness is that I tend to think our lives have some meaning. And to have meaning, then the lessons learned in this life require some kind of perpetuity. But I could be all wrong. I don't have any facts to work with that support this premise. It's just siily, wishful, hopeful feelings.
Thanks for the video. I think it does a good job of making the point that while intelligence could be involved in creation, all there are, are assumptions when trying to divine it's nature.
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Exactly. It's all speculation. The concept of a creator should be a purely philosophical exercise at this point. A very interesting one, I might add.
I start threads like this to encourage people to think about their beliefs. Why? Because I think beliefs matter. Beliefs motivate action, attitudes and behavior. As a member of society I am concerned about the behavior of others in society. I can not compel anyone to think about their beliefs but I think the more people that do the better it will be for society.
I do have an agenda. I am indirectly promoting humanism, whether it be religious or secular humanism makes little difference to me. I believe critical thinking leads to humanism. Imo, if you can start a person thinking they will end up a humanist.
But more important to me than humanism is free thought. I will always oppose the forced suppression of any belief, however weird or hurtful I think it is.
Without free thinkers, ours would be a pretty damn boring world. I happen to admire you for having such an agenda, I'm serious, most people I've run across who create threads like this one, quickly lose the respect of those around them, and not because of the topic at hand, because it's interesting to read other opinions, but because they not only hate those who believe in God...they just hate God. All I'm saying is that it's nice to participate in a thread where people actually respect your opinion, they may not agree, and at times tempers can take over, but I think that's normal when intelligent individuals get together to discuss ANY topic. Am I wrong?
Peter Parka
Well-Known Member
I dont think there are too many people who hate god, more that they just dont see any evidence that he even exists.
I dont think there are too many people who hate god, more that they just dont see any evidence that he even exists.
Ohhhh I beg to differ Peter. There are a lot of people out there who, not only believe in God, they also blame him for everything that's gone wrong with their lives. They hate the very mention of His name.
TommyTooter
Banned
not at all.
i don't agree with half of what born ready thinks and i'm sure he feels the same way about me, but he's a pleasure to interact with. he doesn't stoop to the slurs and twisted logic many people with an anti-church stance take. his statements show insight and study and his questions are fair and reasonable.
It's easier to listen to differing opinions when the other side isn't calling you insane or comparing your beliefs with those of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny...lol
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