Divine Hiddenness

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BornReady

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If a personal god exists then that god could make his (no offense to women but I need a pronoun here) existence known to everyone if he wanted to. So why is God hiding from us or at least many of us?

Many religious wars have been fought where both sides felt God was on their side. How much death and suffering could have been prevented if God would have revealed what he wanted? Think of how mankind has struggled with moral issues. At one time the church even thought it was a good idea to burn people alive. How valuable would a divine guide be if he would only make his wisdom known to everyone? What possible reason could there be for hiding when you are so needed? Think of how difficult it has been for men to see into the heart of their prospective leaders. Time and time again men and women have followed the wrong leaders. Wouldn't it be nice if God revealed the hearts of our leaders to us before they gained power? Why would God allow us to be duped by bad men?

One answer theists often give is faith is a virtue. If God were to make his existence known then there would be no room for faith. But how is believing in something without evidence a virtue? It seems more like a recipe for disaster to me. Another justification given by theists is God must hide so we may freely choose to worship him. Huh? Any decision to worship that isn't based on knowledge of the person you're worshiping is silly. Some theists claim God only reveals himself to good people. That is egocentric to the extreme. The fact is lots of well meaning people have done bad things in the name of God. But even if this egocentric view were true, the bad people are the ones who need God the most. Why not reveal himself to them?

What do you think, is divine hiddenness justified? Or is it good evidence, as atheists claim, that a personal god does not exist?
 
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TommyTooter

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i think that the one that is all that is, was and every will be, is not hidden, but manifests in everything. it's consciousness makes itself felt easily in many people.

the signals that i receive from whatever you want to call that conscious energy are very clear when i'm presented with profound truths from loving people or terrible threats from hateful people. the feelings are unmistakable.

after many years of reading scripture and mythology, my feeling is that demi-gods or superhumans exist but that the powers-that-be in the cosmos have quarantined this world from them because of all the problems that their conflicts were causing for the planet.
 

BornReady

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The question isn't whether God is hidden. That much is obvious. The question is why has he hidden himself?

God may have revealed himself to some. But even then he has been far from clear on who he is and what he wants. Proof of that is that theists can not agree on these things. And God has not bothered to reveal himself to many at all. Why not?
 

TommyTooter

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The question isn't whether God is hidden. That much is obvious. The question is why has he hidden himself?

God may have revealed himself to some. But even then he has been far from clear on who he is and what he wants. Proof of that is that theists can not agree on these things. And God has not bothered to reveal himself to many at all. Why not?
when that question was put to the oldest creature in the universe by simon wagstaff, the space wanderer protaganist in kilgore trout's venus on the half shell, the answer was that god had gone out to lunch one day and never returned.

as with elvis, there are sporadic sightings reported.
 

Minor Axis

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Either God remains hidden because he/she/it does not exist or he/she/it does not feel it is important that he make contact with the human race in a forth right manner. Therefore all of our God rules are simply humans trying to figure out for themselves what morality and the purpose of our lives is. And it really helps some of them to think these rules are much to important to be thought up by people. They must have a divine origin. As far as speaking with God the conversation is one way. As far as God speaking to you, anything that happens in you head is suspect.

I have not discounted the possibility of a spiritual existence. :)
 

BornReady

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Either God remains hidden because he/she/it does not exist or he/she/it does not feel it is important that he make contact with the human race in a forth right manner.

I agree. Do you think it is important for God to make contact? It seems to me that we're struggling down here and could really use some divine assistance. Can you think of any good reason for God to remain hidden? I've been over it many times in my mind and so far have not come up with anything.
 

cam elle toe

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I agree. Do you think it is important for God to make contact? It seems to me that we're struggling down here and could really use some divine assistance. Can you think of any good reason for God to remain hidden? I've been over it many times in my mind and so far have not come up with anything.

I dont think he is "hidden"....just not readily available through e-mail and our "two dimensional" ways of communicating.;)

Thousands of years ago, the lines of communication were more open and there was less "clutter" and "static" on the line....making it much easier to hear what He was saying/advising
.
These days there is too much outside interference
He's still "contactable" , I just think some dont want to hear what He has to say, or dont listen hard enough.
 

darkangel

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I agree. Do you think it is important for God to make contact? It seems to me that we're struggling down here and could really use some divine assistance. Can you think of any good reason for God to remain hidden? I've been over it many times in my mind and so far have not come up with anything.
God is in our hearts and hears our thoughts I've always believed. He hears when we talk to him and he gives us signs to which direction to follow when we are in crisis. You have to open your heart and have some faith that the answers will come. Maybe not the ones you want to hear or in the time you want the answers but there is communication if you're listening. And you have to have some patience.
 

BornReady

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He's still "contactable" , I just think some dont want to hear what He has to say, or dont listen hard enough.

If I remember right then you're a Christian. So for the sake of argument, let's say the Christians got it right. Then, unfortunately, there are something like 4 billion people on earth who are not Christians. But it's worse than that. Even Christians can't agree on what God wants. Probably, at best, half of Christians have actually heard from God. The rest are groping in the dark. In other words, God has only revealed himself to maybe 1 billion of the 6 billion people on earth.

Now you seem to be proposing the reason for this is because you're more sincere or honest than the 5 billion people who haven't heard from God. I suggest that the real difference between you and those who haven't heard is your place of birth. If you had been born in India then most likely you would be a Hindu. Your explanation of God's hiddenness seems egocentric to me.

Why doesn't God reveal himself to everyone and end all the religious wars and moral arguments? For example, if homosexuality really is wrong then why not explain to us why it's wrong? And if it's not wrong then why not explain that to the people who are putting guilt trips on homosexuals and making them feel depraved? People fight so much over want God wants. Why does God sit back and remain silent?
 

cam elle toe

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If I remember right then you're a Christian. So for the sake of argument, let's say the Christians got it right. Then, unfortunately, there are something like 4 billion people on earth who are not Christians. But it's worse than that. Even Christians can't agree on what God wants. Probably, at best, half of Christians have actually heard from God. The rest are groping in the dark. In other words, God has only revealed himself to maybe 1 billion of the 6 billion people on earth.

Now you seem to be proposing the reason for this is because you're more sincere or honest than the 5 billion people who haven't heard from God. I suggest that the real difference between you and those who haven't heard is your place of birth. If you had been born in India then most likely you would be a Hindu. Your explanation of God's hiddenness seems egocentric to me.

Why doesn't God reveal himself to everyone and end all the religious wars and moral arguments? For example, if homosexuality really is wrong then why not explain to us why it's wrong? And if it's not wrong then why not explain that to the people who are putting guilt trips on homosexuals and making them feel depraved? People fight so much over want God wants. Why does God sit back and remain silent?


Nooooo I'm a not a christian....I would call myself a mixture of Buddhist/spiritualist/hippie;)

my personal beliefs have come about from years and years of reading all kinds of books.

and I haven't personally "heard from God"...but I do believe that little thing we call "conscience" may come pretty close to it.

my explanation is just that...mine. No "ego" involved at all.
 

BornReady

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Maybe not the ones you want to hear or in the time you want the answers but there is communication if you're listening.

There are billions of people who fight over what God wants. Some even die for their beliefs. A man who straps explosives on to himself and dies for his god can not be accused of insincerity. They want to know but God is not speaking loud or clear enough. God could end all religious disagreements in a very short time. Why doesn't he do so?
 

darkangel

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God could end all religious disagreements in a very short time. Why doesn't he do so?
Just because we are God's creation doesn't mean that he/she should step in and take care of every disagreement on earth. If God was to show himself to ALL that would be too much for us as human beings to handle. I think God put us here to live our lives but his intervention in any matters here I'm sure he/she has a good reason for not doing so. Maybe the free will he gave us to make us who we are is something that God doesn't feel he/she should interfere with. We will never truly know until the day we die.
 

TommyTooter

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I think I know. I just want to see if any theists can suggest an alternative explanation that seems plausible to me.
you aren't likely to get any plausible explanations out of any christians. you might find some of the answers rabbis will give to be interesting.

there seems to be some indication that at one time, a group of highly advanced humans ran this world. there were lots of conflicts between them and lots of damage done by them and that the 'watchers' of the cosmos shut access to this world off to those beings to allow the planet and its inhabitants to heal and regain some balance without intereference from these irresponsible 'gods'.
 

BornReady

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If God was to show himself to ALL that would be too much for us as human beings to handle.
That sounds pretty elitist. Kind of like... you can't handle God's revelation but don't worry, he'll give it to me and I'll pass it along to you. This is a recipe for religious oppression. It seems best to me if God would reveal himself to everyone.

Maybe the free will he gave us to make us who we are is something that God doesn't feel he/she should interfere with.
Suppose your son went up to a little girl who was playing with a truck. He took the truck from her and bashed her in the head with it. Would you sit idly by and remain silent because you didn't want to interfere with your son's free will? Of course not, you love your son and are very interested in teaching him right from wrong. Why isn't God interested in teaching us right from wrong?

there seems to be some indication that at one time, a group of highly advanced humans ran this world. there were lots of conflicts between them and lots of damage done by them and that the 'watchers' of the cosmos shut access to this world off to those beings
Ok, but if these 'watchers' have our best interest at heart then why don't they make contact?
 
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cam elle toe

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you aren't likely to get any plausible explanations out of any christians. you might find some of the answers rabbis will give to be interesting.

there seems to be some indication that at one time, a group of highly advanced humans ran this world. there were lots of conflicts between them and lots of damage done by them and that the 'watchers' of the cosmos shut access to this world off to those beings to allow the planet and its inhabitants to heal and regain some balance without intereference from these irresponsible 'gods'.

uh huh....and thats when our third eye/pituitary gland literally "shut off/closed"...this is waaaaay before the Old Testemant too. We are all slowly "waking up" though, some faster than others

Ok, but if these 'watchers' have our best interest at heart then why don't they make contact?

I believe they will....and in our lifetime too....we're reaching critical level now

Ya can call me crazy now:willy_nilly:
 

BornReady

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Ya can call me crazy now:willy_nilly:

I don't mean to be offensive to religious people. But honestly, I have no real way to judge between religious beliefs. They all seem to be without any real evidence. So I can not speak so much to whether a particular god exists or not but rather, if he does, whether he is good or bad. Basically what I'm trying to do here is come up with a scenario for a good personal God.
 
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cam elle toe

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I don't mean to be offensive to religious people. But honestly, I have no real way to judge between religious beliefs. They all seem to be without any real evidence. So I can not speak so much to whether a particular god exists or not but rather, if he does, whether he is good or bad.


Call me a historian then;)

Its a dichotomy alright...He has to be both good AND bad to bring balance and harmony....there can be no good without bad, no light without darkness....
 

TommyTooter

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That sounds pretty elitist. Kind of like... you can't handle God's revelation but don't worry, he'll give it to me and I'll pass it along to you. This is a recipe for religious oppression. It seems best to me if God would reveal himself to everyone.


Suppose your son went up to a little girl who was playing with a truck. He took the truck from her and bashed her in the head with it. Would you sit idly by and remain silent because you didn't want to interfere with your son's free will? Of course not, you love your son and are very interested in teaching him right from wrong. Why isn't God interested in teaching us right from wrong?


Ok, but if these 'watchers' have our best interest at heart then why don't they make contact?
it does keep coming back to that doesn't it?

i'm just going to toss out a word here without comment : telepathy
 
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